"Faking" some .38 S&W ammo

[MtGun44]

I wanted to shoot my "new" Colt Police Positive .38 and haven't gotten any
.38 S&W brass yet. Although Colt would tell you that it is chambered in .38
Colt New Police cartridge, most of the world calls that the .38 S&W.

I noticed that Lyman lists their .38 S&W dies as ".38 S&W/.38 Super" dies.
HMMM? I don't have any proper brass, and I know that while .38 Spl brass
will chamber if trimmed to .775, I remember reports of the old Brit S&W Victory
Models in .38 S&W (.38/200) that were hack job "converted" to .38 Spl after
the war would sometimes split cases because the original chambers were too
large. Not wanting that, I wondered if .38 Super brass, with it's nuisance vestigal
rim would work in the little Colt? So, I trimmed one down about .15 or so, to
.775 and resized it and it chambered nicely, no unusual slop, ejected fine. So,
I did it 5 more times, and then ran them through my .38 Super die set. I
selected the Lee 105 .38 SWC which I had some unsized on hand that ran
.359, which is what my throats pin gaged at. So, I smeared some lube into
the groove, scraping the excess off, primed the cases,dumped in 4.0 gr of
Unique and seated the little SWCs, and put a light taper crimp on. The die
set seems perfectly fine, kind of amazing.

All six rounds fired fine, shot into about 1 3/4" group at 12 yds standing. The
mainspring is amazingly strong and the primer hits were extremely deep.
All is well and I scratched an itch, so I may reload the .38 Super short cases with
a 150 gr 358477 as recommended by Al, and see how they work. The 'fake"
ammo looks fine, extracted perfectly and shot well. What more could one ask?

Serious load development will wait for the .38 S&W Starline brass that will be
coming.
Bill

[lathesmith]

Way to get creative Bill, it's always great to get an idea, try it out, and find out it actually works!

the primer hits were extremely deep.

I've noticed the same thing with my S&W Victory, it almost looks like pierced primers. I wonder what it is about the 38 S&W that causes this? I've been meaning to do some investigation into this, but I haven't done any yet.

lathesmith

[MtGun44]

Yes, I was concerned at first glance, but they weren't pierced. Surely the deepest
primer hits I have ever seen. Maybe magnum primers will be harder in the cup?

Yeah, it was kinda fun to work out what might work from what I had on hand.

Bill

[Combat Diver]

Bill,

Maybe Mike Venturino will stop by and answer some questions about this. He had a article in Handloader last year on the same dies if I remember correctly. If I'm correct he used a Webely or Enfield revolver with a Colt .38 Super in the dies for the test.

CD

[9.3X62AL]

38 Super casings in 38 S&W are outside my experience. Sounds like all went well, though.

Do ya have the 38 S&W cases on order? I wistfully recall the times not so long ago that cartridge brass wasn't constantly back-ordered.

[MtGun44]

Graf had them in stock earlier this week, a friend is putting together an order and
we'll save on shipping. Should go this week.

.38 Super brass worked just fine, and I can see why Mike did this same trick of using
.38 Super dies for .38S&W. Of course, if you can use the dies - why not the brass.
If was an Enfield .38 that Mike was working with, I think it would be their .38/200 which,
I beleive is our .38 S&W case loaded with a 200 gr boolit. I don't conciously remember
the article, but maybe it is in the mix somewhere. The Midway USA listing on Lyman
dies as ".38 S&W/.38 Super" is what got me thinking. The minimal rim was the only
issue, and it is plenty good enough.

Al helped me earlier with dimensional information on .38 Spl, .38 Super and .38 S&W
and IIRC the difference in OD between .38 Super and .38 S&W was .002. Well within
tolerances.

I'm headed to a friend's farm to pull maple sap and boil it into syrup this morning, but if
I have time this PM, I think I have some 358477s cast and not sized, if I can find them, and
I'll lube up a few and reload the same 6 cases. Al reports that his Police Positive really
likes that boolit, and it has been a top performer in everything I have tried it in so far.

Bill

[MtGun44]

I guess I can drift my own thread . . . . It is KINDA related to .38 S&W performance.

Al you were pretty down on 147 gr 9mm for serious social work in another thread, saying
it was like dropping back to the .38 S&W. Dimensionally you are right on the mark, as I
idlely compared a 9mm case that happened to be on the bench with the cut down .38Super
cases that I was making. The 9mm is about 1-2 mm shorter than the .38 S&W, and the
boolit is nominally .356 vs .359, and 147gr vs 158 gr boolits, and finally the .38 S&W is
going to run around 800 fps, and I would guess (do not know) that the 147 gr 9mm
would run about 900 fps. Pretty close - except for the expected superior expansion
performance of modern JHP bullets.

Please enlighten me as to the specifics of your lack of appreciation for the 147 gr 9mm
loads. Truly trying to learn here. I use 124 Gold Dots in my "serious social" 9mms, but
am not knowledgeable about the effectiveness or lack thereof for the 147 gr 9mm loads.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

A couple points before I launch into my Subsonic Rant :)

I imagine the Colt PP is strong enough to send out #358477s at 800 FPS. I haven't done so to date, I run my PP at 700-725 FPS. This is a mite stronger than current factory loads, and equivalent to claimed factory ballistics. This is a sporting/recreational revolver to me, no need to push it toward defensive load strengths. At these speeds, the boolits go right to the sights at 25 yards--what's not to like? Jackrabbits won't appreciate the difference, and won't feel insulted by the moderated velocities.

The 38/200 loads run their 200 grain boolits at 700-725 FPS, equivalent to the 38 Special Super Police loads. Whole different animal than the 38 S&W. I will not try these in the little Colt. The Police Positive is 91 years old, and has earned a gentler treatment regimen than to be hot-rodded in that way.

My objection to the 9mm sub-sonic loading immortalized by FBI is that it is a 20%-25% underload of the 9 x 19's ballistic capability with that bullet weight, and that it is ludicrous to download a service cartridge intentionally. AS USUAL, the people with the most input on the question of defensive tooling issuance have the least likelihood of ever having to depend on the results and quality of their decision-making. This time, it was Dr. Fackler and his lab rats calling the shots, instead of some admin pogue--but the results were similarly excreble.

The 9 x 19 caliber in its original European form ran a 123-125 grain FMJ bullet at 1250 FPS. This same format was adopted by our armed forces with the M-9 pistol and its M-882 ammunition. Not a wonder cartridge in RN/FMJ format, replace its bullet with a controlled-expansion JHP of the same weight, and you have a caliber that nips much closer to the heels of the 357 Magnum than to the 38 Special. ballistically speaking. What REALLY leaves me scratching my head is this--in the early 1980s, this same FBI heralded the 357 Magnum/125 grain JHP loading (1375-1400 FPS) as THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD. HOWIZZIT that the same bullet weight running 125 FPS slower in 9mm is suddenly blamed for the failures to stop the bad guys in the FBI's 1986 Miami bank robbery shootout? Famous But Inscrutable.

[MtGun44]

OK, thanks for the info, I guess I was assuming (you know what that means!) that you could
get 800 fps with a .38 S&W, but I will stick to the book loads. Seems like Lyman's old
book (41st edition?) had over 800 fps loads for solid frame pistols, but maybe your
right on not beating on an old girl, especially with no good reason. I don't have the book
here right now, so can't check it.

I did not realize that the 147gr loads 9mm were not at full pressure. It does seem like a silly
thing to give away ballistics on a cartridge which is less than "overly powerful" to begin
with. It is interesting that this choice was made. Was this load developed for subsonic
supressed use for the military? That would be a good reason to give up performance,
perhaps. I generally have found the the stuff I have read put out by Dr. Fackler to be
logical and well thought out. I wonder what the point was?

We will probably get a gallon of maple syrup today, which is nothing for a real operation,
but a good deal for amateurs just out having fun on a winter Sunday.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Bill, the sub-sonic 147 grainers run about 1075-1100 FPS from a 14" SMG barrel. This was their design spec, and the 147 grain HP at that velocity is not a bad felon-stopper. At max pressures in a pistol, 1075-1100 FPS is what the 147 grainers can be driven to safely.

I have no idea what Dr. Fackler's rationale was or is. I worked in and still live in the real world, and am not comfortable in laboratory or academic settings. I could speculate that since the sub-sonic loads are quite accurate and produce less recoil than full-tilt 9mm ammo, perhaps there is some projection that better targeting will result. More wishful thinking from people not getting shot at for a living.

Since I was disallowed from carrying the 125 grain 9mm ammo 2 years ago, I have gone to the 40 S&W/180 JHP @ 950 FPS (WW Ranger SXT).

[MtGun44]

So this was probably military spec ammo for supressed sub guns. Is there real world
experience that shows that the 147 gr ammo is ineffective or less effective than the
125gr ammo? I have no problem with lab work, as long it is correlated with good
experimental work. The GIGANTIC and absolutely uncontrollable "variable" is, of course,
bullet placement.

I tried some unsized (about .362!) 358477s this afternoon. They were big enough that they
were a hard push to fully chamber, so probably need to size to about .360 or so. I used
3.7 gr Unique, which an old Lyman book says is 0.2 above the starting load for this boolit,
and the starting load is reported to be 737 fps. Actually the load felt pretty hot, fairly
sharp recoil, quite surprising, not what I had intended. The old Lyman manual shows loads
up to 960 fps with Unique and specifically says that the data is for "solid frame guns only".
I plan on reducing that charge about 0.5 or so. I do have some W231, so will definitely
try your 2.5 W231 recommended charge. This one was definitely felt a good bit hotter
than I had expected.

I just fired a quick 6 shots at the 12 yd range and was pleased when they went into
about 1", pretty much right on POA. It would be easy to shoot a rabbit in the head at up
to about 25 yds, it would seem. I need to get a .360 sizer and some proper brass, but
it looks like the .38 ACP/.38 Super die set may work just fine.

[9.3X62AL]

3rd try here--wind is playing hell with my connection. Expletives deleted.

An objective analysis of the Miami FBI 1986 shootout would likely place the "fault" for failure to stop the assailants as a combo of high assailant motivation in concert with insufficent and/or inadequate shot placement to render the assailants unable to continue their attack.

This was discussed in depth and breadth internally by FBI firearms folks and with local agency trainers that collaborate with FBI for firearms training, as my agency did and does. Within this community, the above paragraph is largely an accepted fact of the matter. Sometimes the good guys take casualties, in spite of the best training, tactical prep, ammo, firearms, and personal courage. While I trained my people to NOT accept that as a "given", that a "zero injury/loss rate" of personnel was our standard and to fight through to the best possible conclusion of an exchange of finality, the fact remains that the action we crave runs close to the grave.

I don't have sufficient info to say from what sector of FBI the move originated, but not long after the Miami shootout's critique and after-action process jelled a trend developed that began to blame the ammo used--in particular, the Winchester Silvertip 115 JHP 9mm ammo--for the failures to stop the Miami assailants in a positive manner. An outgrowth of this trend was the Fackler research that produced the now-universal 147 grain sub-sonic JHP as The New Standard for 9mm service ammo. The whole process was cloaked and scented with intellectual dishonesty and overtones of administrative expediency that I reflexively distrust to the core of my being.

From an FBI trainer who I trust completely--the down-loaded subsonic ammo was chosen due to its lessened recoil impulse being more user-friendly over that of the Silvertip 115 JHP. Agents "from a wider background base" in FBI-speak (trainer's terms--"Runts and c--ts") qualified more easily with these rounds--and would conceivably place rounds fired in anger more accurately--and the heavier controlled-expansion bullet would provide better penetration--and all those nice gelatin tests proved it. ALL HAIL SUBSONIC 9MM. Gelatin doesn't shoot back, and crooks seldom wear lab coats. But I digress. The FBI felt the need to do SOMETHING, after all the bad press and Monday morning quarterbacking after Miami '86. So there you have it--Our Government In Action.

[MtGun44]

OK, now I understand the politics. I seems ballistically reasonable to ask for more penetration
if you decide that a lack of penetration is your problem. Not unreasonable conclusion, it
would seem. Maybe the process was a bureaucratic mess, I sure wouldn't be surprise by
that. I can easily imagine that the bureacracy had to have some sort of a "fix", because
they had a "problem". As I understood it, the Silvertip had created an unsurvivable wound,
regardless of any medical intervention, but as is sometimes the case, the perp refused
to admit that he was dead yet and managed to, by substantial mental commitment to
the fight and a good choice of weapon (rifle in a pistol fight) manage to do a lot more
damage before finally being stopped by a head shot. Maybe more penetration would
have helped, but maybe not, too. I have never been in a gunfight, and hope to keep
that record intact, but it did seem like an amazing amount of very short range missing
was going on. Not a judgment. Unless I have been there, I feel I have no right to criticize,
but it seems an accurate observation, but perhaps unfair to the participants. I cannot
judge myself and leave that to the more experienced folks.

Once they had made this choice, how has it actually worked out in real life? Has the new
round been equal to, inferior to or the same as the old 115 or 124 gr 9mms? I don't know
of any good real world data, and I would tend to be suspicious of just a few cases, but it seems
like you might have broad enough contacts to have access to enough actual field use
examples to be educational. As to the R&C down powering, it would seem more reasonable
to permit each agent to qualify with whatever weapon they select from a list of approved
designs and calibers. I am not impressed by some slavish devotion to uniformity
in police weapons. Logistics is not the issue for police work that it is for the military.

The bottom line to me is that I have selected the 124 Gold Dot as my 9mm ammo. Do
you have info that would lead you to believe that 115gr or 147 gr would be a better choice?
It sounds like you also chose the 125 gr 9mm until that caliber/wt was removed from your
allowable ammo choices. I suppose that the solution was to go to 40 S&W instead of
9mm.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

The 124 grain Gold Dot +P was my former 9mm carry ammo. :) It ran about 1235-1250 FPS from the P-226, about 1200-1225 from my wife's P-228. She still uses that load. It's a fine one.

I'm not hung up on a particular bullet weight being "better" or "worse". My thrust is that WHATEVER weight you select, run that weight AS HARD AS IT WILL GO in a 9mm cartridge. The 35 caliber already steps up to the plate 0-2 owing to its smaller frontal area and corresponding lighter projectile weight. In the 115 grain-class, that's 1300 FPS. 124-125s should run 1250 FPS. The 147s will need to be handloaded, no current commercial ammo loads this bullet weight to full-potential, thanks to the Facklerites. These should be good for 1075-1100 FPS. Damn few 9mm loads in ANY bullet weight are loaded to full caliber potential, for that matter. Most that are so loaded are labeled as "+P" or "+P+", which is bogus.

I would submit that a large part of why the 40 S&W achieved such immediate and sustained popularity was a general lack of confidence in the stopping capabilities of the 9mm caliber, real or imagined, as loaded in this country. This sentiment is largely absent in Europe, but there the 9 x 19 has always been loaded to full potential.

My apologies for the thread-jack, but this is an issue near and dear to my heart.

[Bret4207]

Having been forced to use the 147 subsonic garbage in our Glocks I can offer some real world experience. We went from full 357 Mag 158 JSP ammo to the Glock 17 and 147ss. Lotsa bullets was nice, low recoil was nice, that's about the end of the "nice". The problem wasn't that the 147s didn't work, they did. They worked just about like a 38 Special RN, only not so accurate. They would penetrate pretty good. If you hit bone they'd open some. It was iffy. Most of our shooting involved (thankfully) shooting car struck deer. A deer has about the same body mass of a human, maybe even less. The 147 was WORTHLESS for putting down deer. A frontal head shot, yeah. They'd generally drop. The deer that was juiced up and trailing 10 foot of guts and able to keep 40-50 yards away? You could fill that deer with a magazine full and he'd only drop because of the sheer weight of the lead. It was dismal stuff and it didn't do us much good either because invariably the deer that wouldn't die would do so in front of 35 loud mouthed witnesses that would immediately go to the nearest bar and tell the story about the Trooper that couldn't hit the deer in 18 rounds. Oh, I hit him alright, every time. But the bullets would skid off a rib or go in 2" and stop or go in further but never open at all. Jeeze I hated that stuff. One of the guys got so po'ed he started shooting the deer with 12 ga slugs. That worked, but at the time we didn't carry shotguns regularly. I did carry my old M-19 in my bag for a while, but I got caught once and my Sgt wasn't too happy with that, of course he was an anti-gun moron anyways.

Short version- 147ss didn't work for beans IME. It was better than nuthin' but not much. The Mall Ninjas tell me it's been re-designed now and works better. I'll stick with the Gold Dot +P+ if I have to use a 9 thanks.