Rail punch

[georgewxxx]

Back in 1967 while deer hunting up by Onemia, Minnesota, we decided to take a trip to the local gun shop. The old guy live several miles back on a gravel road hidden in amongst the trees. He had a 1886 Winchester that he rebarreled to 45-70, reblued, and he had restocked it with a Herter tiger stripped maple wood. A real utilitarian, non-Winchester looking gun. I gave him $85. for it and he threw in a box of 45-70 brass that had no head stamp. I could only guess at who manufactured that brass. This past month at a gun show, a dealer had several boxes of empties with no head stamp. Box was exactly like the one given to me back in 1967. I did a Google on rail punch and a auction on Gun Broker had a box of what looked like 45 Colt still loaded with the projectile used in punching holes in rail road tracks. My box a purchased at the gun show is marked white for heavier rails. The Gun Broker 45 Colt shells were marked Blue and I guess meant for lighter weight rails. I noticed the rims on mine are not perfectly round. Maybe quality control isn't as necessary for the intended purpose. A video on how they are used was available on the Google search if your interested.....Geo

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_2374d7288f482d8a.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=104)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/2374d7288f4d617d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=105)

[a.squibload]

I would be interested in seeing the vid!

[georgewxxx]

Sorry I didn't add that in the begining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlpUO5aMtYk

[Charlie Two Tracks]

That is really neat! I never knew they did that. thanks

[Von Gruff]

Thats facinating. To think that a hole so clean can be punched with a cartridge blank for power.

Von Gruff.

[Jim]

I have no idea what the powder type/charge is, but that oughta' give you some idea of the energy generated by a .45-70 blank.

[stubshaft]

That unit looks like it has some heft to it. That's what I call thinking out of the box.

[fecmech]

A friend who just past away was given a couple cases of those shells ,his were Winchester and coded red. I gave them to a friend who has a 45-70 and needed the brass, it works just fine for reloading.

[Dennis Eugene]

now that is just plain interesting. Thanks

[bbqncigars]

Dayum! I can't wait to show my boss this video. He also loads for 45-70, and sometimes we need to put a few holes in some thick steel. Thanks for the link.


Wayne

[sav300]

I believe that was a common practice in NSW at Chullora rail plant. A old mate (ex rail worker ie ganger) Told me about this practice and some people have these cases and have no clue why they have no head stamp.

[Bret4207]

I'm still stuck on the $85.00 for the '86. I'm sure that was a lotta bucks, but still...

[Lee]

OK, I'm suitably impressed. Now can some one tell this rail dumb guy why you want to punch holes in a rail web? My (small) miond draws a blank (:smile:) on this one........Lee

[Houndog]

OK, I'm suitably impressed. Now can some one tell this rail dumb guy why you want to punch holes in a rail web? My (small) miond draws a blank (:smile:) on this one........Lee

They use a tie plate and bolts to hold the rails together.

[mroliver77]

My Dad worked on the D,T&I RR (Henry Ford's RR)from like 54-84. He was
Conductor-Brakeman. He had lots of RR stories, many that cannot be told in polite company. One thing that always stuck in my memory was that the section crew would mark a rail with a chisel and then whack it with a sledge and break it like a glass rod. This might have only worked on cold rail or certain alloy. He said one time a car had a chunk come off a wheel and every time the flat hit the rail it broke at that point resulting in a mess.
It just so happens that the D,T&I runs right through our farm. Dad would blow the whistle when they went by. For years the crew would blow after Dad retired and he would flash the porch light at them. Gradually that happened less and less until now they don't even wave if we are working back there. Heck for years the workers have driven across our land when they needed to work on the communication wires(now gone). A couple years back I was shooting chucks on the right of way when a work crew stopped and told me I was trespassing and they have a no tolerance policy on this and I was warned. Well what goes around comes around. The drive to get to the back field along the tracks is now gone. One must use my lane to the house to get to the back field and RR tracks. My policy is " Want to use my drive? Cough up some cash."
Oh, anyhow I have never seen these shells. The RR throws trash along the tracks when doing work but I have not seen any of these. I do know some section workers and will ask when I run into them.

Jay

[georgewxxx]

This is the company http://www.vpptoday.com/ the picture on their front page shows two rails being tied together. They make no mention about any size or anything about cartridges at all.

The $85 for that 86 Winchester in question was told to me before we went on that hunting trip and one of the major reasons I went along. I made the mistake of showing the gun to my brother in law a couple years later. I owed him a favor and let him talk me out of it. Talk about dumb, I've regretted it ever since. It had a button magazine and was extremely light and just a tad uncomfortable to shoot even with 300 grainers.

[mroliver77]

I bet he sold it a short time later.
Jay

[gnoahhh]

In the same vein, the Navy used .45/70 blanks in line throwing guns up until the recent past (maybe still do). My BIL was Engineering Officer on a nuke sub and would bring me the empties from when they conducted drills with it.

[AZ-Stew]

In the same vein, the Navy used .45/70 blanks in line throwing guns up until the recent past (maybe still do). My BIL was Engineering Officer on a nuke sub and would bring me the empties from when they conducted drills with it.

True.

What's a line throwing gun? It's a smooth bore, short barreled, rifle stocked firearm used for throwing a soft-nosed, bottled water bottle-sized projectile with a steel rod attached to its base. A reel of parachute-type cord is attached to the projectile. When the arm is fired the projectile carries the thin cord a hundred yards or so to another ship, or to the pier when docking during heavy winds. A sailor then cuts the cord and ties it to a heavier line that is pulled across by sailors on the receiving ship or to the pier. Successively heavier lines are pulled across until the transfer cable between ships or the mooring line to the pier is secured.

Regards,

Stew

[waksupi]

Also known as a Lyle Gun, I believe.

[TCLouis]

I bought some empty brass (unfired) marked WCC . . .

Thought it would be appropriate for the Remington Roller or maybe the 86.

About 10% failed with a longitudinal split on the first (LIGHT) loading. Bet QC is not important in line gun ammo either

[Mk42gunner]

Actually, the line throwing guns went out of service sometime in the late 70's- early 80's. By the time I finally got on my first ship (1987) we were using line throwing adapters on the end of an M-14 and a grenade cartidge with the gas valve turned off.

The adapter is a cup type that is latched on by a bail around the bayonet stud. The Projectile is a one pound rubber weight that has provisions for up to three small chem lights, for night time use. I never saw more than one used though.

I guess too many people were getting hurt by the weighted rod type, plus everybody I talked to said that 3"/50 test primers had more power than the actual .45-70.ime throwing blanks.

I did see one guy get hit on the forearm by a projectile once, it raised a knot on his arm that was the size of a baseball cut in half. Looked very painful.

The only person that could safely stand in the open when shotlines are going across is the Gunner's Mate in the red hard hat -- because you knew he had a gun too.

We used to UNREP every Wednesday and Sunday while we were on WestPac.


Robert

[WILCO]

Thanks for the link! I learned something new today!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Sort of along these lines . . . Coffman engine starter (Shotgun starter) . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffman_engine_starter . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IACjOvyx5hs

[vpptoday]

Hey GeorgeXXX - do you still have the cartridges that you have shown in your pictures?

[beagle]

Natchez Shooter's Supply sold some "pulldowns" several years back and a I bought a couple of hundred. About half were useless and damaged. The ones I did salvage had rims too thick to use in a close tolerance breech like the Number 1 Ruger so I gave them to a friend with a trapdoor and they worked well in that. Headstamped WCC53 as I recall./beagle


In the same vein, the Navy used .45/70 blanks in line throwing guns up until the recent past (maybe still do). My BIL was Engineering Officer on a nuke sub and would bring me the empties from when they conducted drills with it.

[georgewxxx]

Those rail punch ones that I bought weren't cartridges at all. Just empty 45-70 casings. When I was started this thread, I checked to see if there was anyplace still selling them loaded just to see what they looked like up close, but I guess not. Not to the general public anyway. We have a major cartridge show every year close by in Sioux Falls in August. I'll have to remember and see if anything like that shows up, and ask a few older collectors what they know about them. To me the box and label was more interesting to look at than some empties with no head stamp A box like that with the .45 colt casing without head stamp would be what I'd want next.....Geo.

[georgewxxx]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_2374d97a30d5507a.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=415)
Found another similar box from Velocity Power. This one is for rivet removal. Wonder what size cartridge is used in this application? Box says 25 count and about the same type of label as the first ones.

[fecmech]

I had a couple hundred loaded given to me that I passed on to a friend with a 45-70. I asked for a cartridge or two back for my collection and he dropped off a full box today. These were given to me last year by a friend who has since past away. The case heads on these say WW 45-70 Govt and are loaded with 48 grs of a flake powder about the size of Red Dot without the dots and covered with a black plastic cup shaped wad. The friend who passed got them from a railroad worker who had retired some years ago. He had loaded and shot the casings for years in his 45-70.

[3006guns]

I sent a copy of the video to a friend who is a track foreman for AMTRAK.

I have several boxes of the 45-70 blanks (empties) used for the line throwing gun. Don't recall the head stamp at the moment, but they were all the old balloon head type. Fine for the older cartridge rifles but I don't think I'd try any souped up loads!

Now that I think of it, that would justify another gun.........

[Le Loup Solitaire]

On railroads back in the day, rails were cut in the following manner. The back of the hammer head was wedge shaped and was used to "score" the rail at the point at which it was to be cut. The scoring was usually done all around the rail to ensure an even cut. Then when the rail was struck with the flat side of the hammer(which was a sledge shape), the rail would snap clean at the score line. Sometimes only two score lines were made, one on the top of the rail and the other at the bottom. It had something to to with the actual rail size. Main lines used heavier rail. Rail, for those of you who have never used it for anything....is incredibly hard stuff. You'll use up lots of drill bits and grinding wheels on it. They make wonderful anvils, paperweights or a doorstop/gatestop if you need one of those, but not too much else. LLS

[georgewxxx]

I thought it better to go back to this old thread so everyone knows what I'm posting. Well that cartridge show I mentioned is this week-end and there was one box of those cartridges that were still loaded. The head stamps say..MSA...S&A press. the cases are similar to 45 Colt. They're too long for my Colt clone cylinder, but are of the right diameter. I had no idea these thing were that old. Hercules Power Co. tag on the side of the box indicates 1941 as the manufacture date. No wonder not much info is available now days on these. When trying to set the box upside down on the scanner, a fine bullseye type powder started dribbling all over the glass from one or two of the shells. $3.00 for the box was a good price I think.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_2374e3c54474f474.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1708)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_2374e3c54478b93d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1709)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_2374e3c5447ceb60.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1710)

[MT Gianni]

I'd call it a great price.

I was just saddened again to read AzStews post and remember his death.

[SWANEEDB]

I take it you are speaking of the S Falls cart show, wanted to make it but just wasn't to be, second one i've missed in 15 yrs. Maybe we have crossed paths along the way. I did have the great pleasure of making the commemorative show shell for 10 yrs straight, perhaps you may have one--they were the dummy loaded 12ga shells(clear hulls) with the printing and graphics on the inside, hope the show was good, has been on a downward slide the past few yrs.

[georgewxxx]

Yes it is the Sioux Falls show. I kind of wanted to attend the auction they had last night, but my wife and I were invited to a birthday party of an old friend and priorities rule. The guy that had the table with those cartridges I bought wasn't at his table and I asked a fellow at a adjoining table if he knew who the owner was, and he a looked around to find him but couldn't see him. I asked if he was he young or old and he said, "We're all old here"! So the downward slide as you call it continues, but without any local advertising not many new people even knew about the show. I'm 68 and he was right, there weren't very many people younger than me in attendance. They're still trying to sell off those 12ga shells at the front table.