Is there a 9mm AR cartridge?

[theperfessor]

We all know that the .45AR cartridge was designed to be used in revolvers chambered for the .45 ACP/moon clip combination. I was wondering if there was ever a thick rimmed case with 9mm dimensions offered. I know Ruger, S&W, and probably Taurus have offered DA revolvers chambered in 9mm.

You don't need a .38 Spcl sized case to get a 125-140 gr bullet up to useful self defense velocities. A short case that can be completely ejected by the typical short stroke of an ejector rod of a snubby has a lot of merit. Neither of my J-frames will totally push out a .38 case.

Have I missed something? I just found out not too long ago on this forum exactly what a .45 Cowboy cartridge was dimensionally and what it was designed for. So I'll plead ignorance if it's an available item.

PS let's not turn this into another discussion of "useful self defense velocities" or 9mm vs .38. I just think you can get .38+P performance from a shorter, better case in a gun with more ammunition versatility.

[HeavyMetal]

What your looking for is the 9mm Federal loading.

A short lived round it was chambered in two (?) revolvers a Ruger and a S&W and maybe an H&R???

I think One of the reasons it went was because it would fit in 38 S&W chambers

[S.R.Custom]

What your looking for is the 9mm Federal loading.

A short lived round it was chambered in two (?) revolvers a Ruger and a S&W and maybe an H&R???

Charter Arms.

[klcarroll]

..........You don't need a .38 Spcl sized case to get a 125-140 gr bullet up to useful self defense velocities. A short case that can be completely ejected by the typical short stroke of an ejector rod of a snubby has a lot of merit. Neither of my J-frames will totally push out a .38 case............


An absolutely GREAT technical point!!! ........There are all kinds of operational reasons for high efficiency small format cases!

One of the things that always impressed me about my .38/200 Webleys was the incredibly fast and positive ejection of spent cases: ……And the short case length is certainly the major factor in that!

With the advent of so many small frame revolvers intended for Concealed Carry, I suspect that a “re-think” on the old .38 S&W (…or British .38/200, if you prefer) might be in order! ……After all, the whole reason the .38 S&W has survived into this century is it’s applicability to small, concealed, personal defense revolvers.

(……And YES!!!, ….I’m a “Webley Fanatic”, so you can take my opinion with a “grain of salt”!)

Kent

[Bret4207]

Yupper, 9mm Federal, chambered in a couple guns back in the mid 80's IIRC when the "Wonder 9" craze was going full bore. IIRC it lasted about as long as the 401 Power Mag, the plastic cased "USA" 38 Special ammo, the various 41 auto cartridges (Avenger,G+A, etc) or the "Shooting Times" series of cartridges. IOW, an answer in search of a question.

My Google-fu returns very little on the 9mm Federal. Finding a Ruger in that cal would be about as likely as finding one of 38 S+W's Ruger made for the Hong Kong or Indian police. I believe I've seen exactly one Charter in that cal and that was right after it hit the market.

[klcarroll]

............ Finding a Ruger in that cal would be about as likely as finding one of 38 S+W's Ruger made for the Hong Kong or Indian police.....


JEEZ!!!! ........I want one of those!!!!


Kent

[Bret4207]

An absolutely GREAT technical point!!! ........There are all kinds of operational reasons for high efficiency small format cases!

One of the things that always impressed me about my .38/200 Webleys was the incredibly fast and positive ejection of spent cases: ……And the short case length is certainly the major factor in that!

With the advent of so many small frame revolvers intended for Concealed Carry, I suspect that a “re-think” on the old .38 S&W (…or British .38/200, if you prefer) might be in order! ……After all, the whole reason the .38 S&W has survived into this century is it’s applicability to small, concealed, personal defense revolvers.

(……And YES!!!, ….I’m a “Webley Fanatic”, so you can take my opinion with a “grain of salt”!)

Kent


Kent, as few of us have an affection for top break IJ's, H+R's or Smiths in addition to your lovely Webleys and other British top breaks. I've wanted a 455 Webley since Noah was still building duck skiffs!

T'ain't nuthin' wrong with a 38 S+W with 150-200 grs of FN soft lead at 550-650 fps. They will put a definite crimp in a predators evening.[smilie=1:

[theperfessor]

Was the rim of the Federal round thick like .45 AR? Was it meant to allow use of 9mm in moon clips in the guns it was chambered in? I guess I ought to look up the specs somewhere, it's not in the manuals I have.

I can almost believe it was pulled because it might fit a .38 S&W chamber, but I'd like to compare the rim thickness to the Federal round to see. It seems to me that a thick enough rim might prevent that possibility.

[HeavyMetal]

It did have a pronounced rim but I don't think it was any thicker than the 38 S&W hence the possible issue.

I have never seen 9mm Federal, factory loads or once fired case's, so I am only guessing.

As for a "souped up" 38 S&W / 9mm Federal round in very small revolvers?

Well in my opinion Brett said it best "an answer in search of a problem"!

I have often stated my dislike of little wheel guns in 38/ 9mm /special calibers because deliverable payload versus size versus carrying weight makes no sense to me when I can buy a small auto in the same power range, same weight range and have more deliverable payload to boot for less money as a bonus!

That isn't to say that an enterprising reloader couldn't shorten special case's to the point, and only to the point, that they cleared the cylinder when ejected.

Such rounds would be to long to fit the older S&W break tops thus giving the round a break in the safety area. Made rimless it could be loaded on a "star" such as the 1917, Model 1955's use to aid in speed loading.

An interesting concept for someone "hobbled" with a snubby 38 special

[runfiverun]

i use 32-20 brass in my 30 carbine revolver 25-20 brass rims are too thick to allow the cylinder to turn.
you might just be able to just plain shorten 38 special military type cases to work for you.
a 9mm die and a 38 shellholder could do the trick.
you wouldn't be the first guy to turn a case rim.

[rond]

The 38 Super is a simi-rim case that could be trimmed to 9mm length, don't have a 9mm revolver to check if the rim is enough to hold it in the chamber. They do fit in a .357.

[Houndog]

Perfesser,
I think I'd just trim .100 off the length of a 38 Special case and start with a 38S&W load. As you well know, 38 special brass is everywhere and if the experiment didn't pan out the $$ lost would be miniscule. By using the starting load data for the 38S&W you would have a wide safety margon and it's highly unlikely you would be in any kind of danger. Good luck!

[Harter66]

I did cut some split 357 cases down to 9x23. I've heard of a 45 cyl being turned to accept moon clips and still eject rimed. I think a moon cliped 357 would be just the ticket,think about it 380,9x19,21,23,38S&W(length),38/357. Someone here had made 9x23 IIRC from 223. Admitedly a 380 would look silly with a 158 gr rnfp in it

[nicholst55]

9mm Federal cartridge specs can be seen here (http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/revolver.htm).

[Bret4207]

It did have a pronounced rim but I don't think it was any thicker than the 38 S&W hence the possible issue.

I have never seen 9mm Federal, factory loads or once fired case's, so I am only guessing.

As for a "souped up" 38 S&W / 9mm Federal round in very small revolvers?

Well in my opinion Brett said it best "an answer in search of a problem"!

I have often stated my dislike of little wheel guns in 38/ 9mm /special calibers because deliverable payload versus size versus carrying weight makes no sense to me when I can buy a small auto in the same power range, same weight range and have more deliverable payload to boot for less money as a bonus!

That isn't to say that an enterprising reloader couldn't shorten special case's to the point, and only to the point, that they cleared the cylinder when ejected.

Such rounds would be to long to fit the older S&W break tops thus giving the round a break in the safety area. Made rimless it could be loaded on a "star" such as the 1917, Model 1955's use to aid in speed loading.

An interesting concept for someone "hobbled" with a snubby 38 special

Ah, this is one of those beauty in the eye of the beholder things. My Airweight Bodyguard Smith only holds 5, but it weighs a lot less than my Star PD or Astra Constable. Loaded it was a little heavier than the Beretta 25 I used to have. BUT- it points a lot better than any semi, never has a misfire or fail to go into battery and I don't have to chase brass with it ever.

I don't dislike small autos, I like them fine. But I don't think a person is hobbled at all with a revolter.

[deltaenterprizes]

The best thing about revolvers they still work even though they are neglected. Most people carrying semiautos are carrying single shots because they lack proper lubrication. I see it all the time when working as a Range Safety Officer back home. Bang, jam, bang , jam ................!
And if a revolver misfires, you just pull the trigger again!

[HeavyMetal]

Jeff Cooper stated it most clearly:

The auto pistol is the "thinking Man's Gun". This phrase comes to mind any time I'm at the range and see a guy with an auto that is having jamming problems.

Now the above statement is not ment as a burn just that many people neglect what they shouldn't and I have seen revolvers jam so don't think it doesn't happen!

Brett you are correct the PD will be heavier, it will also be in 45 caliber, which is why it is heavier. I was thinking more along the lines of a Star BM or BK one of which is an aluminum frame gun making it as lite as your air weight or pretty darn close.

Being left handed I have never been endeared to a revolver for SD, hunting and plinking not a problem. What I have found amazing over the years is the amount of revolvers that are no where near the POA when you shoot them.

A classic example was a 3 inch J frame 38 special I saw a couple shooting in the late 80's at the now closed fish canyon range. This was one of those heavy shrouded barrel custom jobs S&W was turning out at the time.

POI was about 3 feet left and a foot low from POA! The couple had about 6 different shooters try it, besides myself, and we all got the same basic impact area on target.

Hopefully it went back to S&W!

I can remember only one auto pistol that wasn't close to POI POA when I picked it up.

So my opinion, which is once again only mine and not intended as any kind of burn, is that small revolvers hobble the owner.

No insult intended just my experience with them.

[krag35]

I just got a 1/2 box of that plastic cased USA 38 special ammo in trade this week. Had never seen it before, but heard of it. I remember wanting one of those Ruger Speed Sixs in 9mm When they came out, don't remember just why now????

[Philngruvy]

But I don't think a person is hobbled at all with a revolter.

+1 on that!

[bhn22]

Was the rim of the Federal round thick like .45 AR? Was it meant to allow use of 9mm in moon clips in the guns it was chambered in? I guess I ought to look up the specs somewhere, it's not in the manuals I have.

I can almost believe it was pulled because it might fit a .38 S&W chamber, but I'd like to compare the rim thickness to the Federal round to see. It seems to me that a thick enough rim might prevent that possibility.

The 9mm Federal did not have a thicker rim. It looked for all purposes to be a 38 S&W case sized in a 9mm die, but had a thicker web. There were initial concerns about use in 38 S&Ws, but testing revealed that the difference in bullet diameter allowed gas to escape around the bullet, lowering pressures to an acceptable level. 38 Spl cases would be much smaller in diameter at the base, but it may be possible to build LOW PRESSURE loads using 38 S&W brass, if the rim is thick enough to head space correctly, and also depending on the diameter of 38 S&W cases at the base, I don't have any on hand to measure.

Just a thought

[Piedmont]

The .38 S&W cases are within a very small amount of being the same length as the 9 and they are bigger around at the base than the .38 spl. and probably .38 Super. It would be easy to trim .38 S&W a few thousandths, size in 9mm Luger dies, taper crimp and headspace it off the mouth. They would then eject fine from DA revolvers. What they would not be doing is headspacing on the rim.

[theperfessor]

I take it from all of this that there really is no 9mm equivalent of the .45AR round, i.e. one with a 9mm+moon clip thick rim dimension. And no gun chambered for dual-use of 9mm rimmed AND 9mm in moon clips, such as a S&W 25/625 in .45ACP AND .45 AR.

I think there's a place for such a round and such a gun.

[deltaenterprizes]

A 125 gr 38sp +P loaded to 9mm velocity will be the same thing.

[theperfessor]

Yes, that's exactly what I carry in my 642. But that load is in a case that's longer than necessary, in gun that is also safely chambered in a high pressure round (.357) and can easily handle 9mm level pressure. I can't use moon clips and mil-surp ammo in it, and it won't fully eject the .38 cases, much less a .357.

Cut a cylinder to 9mm length, cut a J-frame back proportionally to eliminate any gap at the front, offer a rimmed analog to a 9mm w/moon clips to give two reloading options. I'd buy one.

[bhn22]

Have your 642 cut for moon clips, and use them with your 38 Spl load.

[theperfessor]

I'm not all that unhappy with what I've got. I usually carry one speed loader and a couple of rubber speed strips. And I always turn my revolvers straight up when I eject cases.

But I've been loading up some Starline .45AR brass for my 625 and appreciating the qualities of a short revolver case, and enjoying being able to have several cartridge and reloading options available, and wondering why a thick rimmed 9mm case was never developed.

[Tom Herman]

Kent, as few of us have an affection for top break IJ's, H+R's or Smiths in addition to your lovely Webleys and other British top breaks. I've wanted a 455 Webley since Noah was still building duck skiffs!

T'ain't nuthin' wrong with a 38 S+W with 150-200 grs of FN soft lead at 550-650 fps. They will put a definite crimp in a predators evening.[smilie=1:

Hi Bret! I hope you find a top break .455 sometime soon... I have a couple, only one of which will fire the original .455 Webley at this time. The other will take .45 AR, and I'll probably load them with the Webley bullet (265 gr. RNHB) to Webley velocities and see what that does.
The .38/200's are fun, too! I have a couple of those, and have to buy a mold for them before I can do much more shooting.
Top breaks are cool! I've never seen anything that ejects so fast, but a Second Model Hand Ejector S&W in .455 isn't shabby, either.
On the other hand, my Colt New Service in .455 is the biggest dog that I own (it's tired and needs work).
Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[Bret4207]

I just got a 1/2 box of that plastic cased USA 38 special ammo in trade this week. Had never seen it before, but heard of it. I remember wanting one of those Ruger Speed Sixs in 9mm When they came out, don't remember just why now????

Now you need to find the loader. It looked like a hand exerciser, all plastic, metal and springs about the size of your wallet.

[Bret4207]

Jeff Cooper stated it most clearly:

The auto pistol is the "thinking Man's Gun". This phrase comes to mind any time I'm at the range and see a guy with an auto that is having jamming problems.

Now the above statement is not ment as a burn just that many people neglect what they shouldn't and I have seen revolvers jam so don't think it doesn't happen!

Brett you are correct the PD will be heavier, it will also be in 45 caliber, which is why it is heavier. I was thinking more along the lines of a Star BM or BK one of which is an aluminum frame gun making it as lite as your air weight or pretty darn close.

Being left handed I have never been endeared to a revolver for SD, hunting and plinking not a problem. What I have found amazing over the years is the amount of revolvers that are no where near the POA when you shoot them.

A classic example was a 3 inch J frame 38 special I saw a couple shooting in the late 80's at the now closed fish canyon range. This was one of those heavy shrouded barrel custom jobs S&W was turning out at the time.

POI was about 3 feet left and a foot low from POA! The couple had about 6 different shooters try it, besides myself, and we all got the same basic impact area on target.

Hopefully it went back to S&W!

I can remember only one auto pistol that wasn't close to POI POA when I picked it up.

So my opinion, which is once again only mine and not intended as any kind of burn, is that small revolvers hobble the owner.

No insult intended just my experience with them.

Okay, then lets go back tot he PD. I can carry my ultra reliable and astoundingly accurate Charter Bull Dog 44 that shoots dead on point of aim and is still lighter than my PD and far less expensive. All at the price of 1 round. I can shoot it all day with factory equivalent without worry of slides cracking, no misfires or fail to go to battery and no brass chasing.

I like them both, not really "hobbled" with either. It just comes down to personal preference. Picking POI issues or jamming for either choice is just trying to bolster our choices. 6 or one, a half dozen of the other.:-P

[deltaenterprizes]

I think it was suggested to cut down some 38 sp cases to 9mm length ans use 38 S&W data as a starting point. I would suggest cutting the 38 sp brass down until you get the same internal volume of a 9mm case and use 9mm starting data and work up from there.
The only down side I can see is the higher pressure developed may give more muzzle blast than an equivalent 38sp load.

[Paul4895]

I'm supprised nobody here has posted this. Here's what the ICORE guys are doing. Thier shooting .38 short colt loaded using 9mm data. Thier shooting these loads out of S&W 627's cut for moonclips.

The .38 sc is roughly the same size as a 9mm case. There has been a run on .38 short Colt cases at Star Line and they were out of stock for awhile. A lot of the ICORE shooters trimed .38 special brass down to .38 SC dimensions. It works because the case head and rim are the same.

I think the .38 SC is the closes thing you'll get to a 9mm AR type case.

Paul

[Piedmont]

The short Colt would swell out at the base, just like the post WWII conversions of military .38 S&Ws to .38 Special.

I've been giving this all a lot of thought lately since I just fitted a 9mm cylinder to a Security Six but haven't shot it yet. My conclusion is that the 9mm revolvers never sold well so there was never enough demand for a 9mm AR. I know there were at least some problems with the tapered cases backing out and tying up the gun. S&W on the 547 had an extra protrusion in the recoil shield adjacent to the firing pin to prevent this. S&W also had at least two chamber configurations on the M940, basically one was a straight chamber for a tapered case.

So I think there were some functioning problems and the demand was never high. Smiff stopped making them twice (547 and 940), and Ruger stopped their double action production twice (Speed Six and SP 101).

On top of that there aren't a quarter million decommissioned military revolvers floating around that would take the cartridge.

[Paul4895]

Piedmont, maybe I misunderstood what the perfessor was trying to do. I thought he wanted a short case .38 similar in lenght to a 9mm with 9mm ballistics to shoot out of a S&W J Frame Revolver. Due to the short ejection rod on S&W short barrel revolvers, regular .38 sp cases don't complete eject, and I think he was trying to oliviate that problem in his J frame.

If he had his J frame cyclinder cut for moonclips and used the .38 short colt case loaded up using 9mm data, I think his problem would be solved and it would be what I believe he is looking for. I wasn't suggesting using .38 SC cases in a 9mm cyclinder.

The ICORE shooters are using .38 SC in .357 mag cyclinders cut for moonclips with great results. It gives them faster reloads with the shorter case than the longer 38 SP and .357 mag cases. They also have no accuracy issues with the .38 SC.

I think .38 short colt in a J frame cut for moonclips would be a ideal solution, for reloading and ejection

Paul

[Harter66]

There is/was a 9mm cyl for the 357 RBH too. It I believe was mouth headspaced.

[Mk42gunner]

I take it from all of this that there really is no 9mm equivalent of the .45AR round, i.e. one with a 9mm+moon clip thick rim dimension. And no gun chambered for dual-use of 9mm rimmed AND 9mm in moon clips, such as a S&W 25/625 in .45ACP AND .45 AR.

I think there's a place for such a round and such a gun.

Quite possibly there is a place for such a gun; however, roughly 99% of new (or non educated) shooters think you need a semi auto for defence, because a revolver is out of date and no longer capable.

The reason there isn't a 9mm Auto Rim round is because there weren't large quantities of 9mm revolvers cut for moon clips vailable as surplus, like the 1917 Colts and Smith&Wessons. There wasn't a .45 Auto Rim round until after the first World War either.

Quite possibly if the half moon clips had been easier to carry without bending, there wouldn't have been a .45 AR at all. The full moon clips didn't come about for decades after WWI.

I had a Model 25-2 S&W in the late 80's that was accurate and fast to reload with full moon clips, I never tried the original half moons, adn I could never find AR brass at that time.

Robert

[leftiye]

Get a 357 with moon clips.

[HeavyMetal]

Bret:

The 44 Charter is another "unsung hero" in the light carry gun saga. Much better than a snubby 38 and just as easy to carry.

I own a 4 inch target version of it and it shoots nice.

However you have never had unburned powder get under the star when reloading a wheel gun? One of the reasons I switched to ball powder years ago was the need to keep a toothbrush in my range gear to brush under the star every once in a while.

Other wise the powder grains cause the star to bind because it hasn't fully closed this can either make it hard to open or to close and then fire.

You are also correct that we can do the what if's until the cows come home, ( much like polls during election year) to prove our favorite point.

I think Elmer Kieth wouldn't be handi capped with a derringer! But when I see John Q. Citizen wander into a gun store for the first time because his "hood" is getting a little "rough", and, not knowing anything, asks for "help" with a selection every time the clown behind the counter sells him a J frame snubby or a 12 guage pump gun.

Real slick clowns try to sell both!

Just don't see the one size fits all "miracle" of the J frame snubby!


And that is my real beef.

Again no burn intended just stating what I've seen as food for thought.

[theperfessor]

I agree a J-frame snubby isn't a one size fits all solution for everybody. However, for some people in some circumstances it is a good solution. I used to own one of the original Charter Bulldogs and liked it a lot. But it was still bigger than a J-frame. When I wear bulkier clothes I often carry a .44 Special S&W 296 (see my avatar). But most of the time I carry my 642 in .38.

All mechanical systems have strong points and weak points. Guns are no different. Self loading guns have them. Revolvers have them. I've owned, shot, and carried all sorts of guns, from .380 up to .45, in bottom feeders and wheel guns. I've also learned enough about my own responses under stress to know that I don't want to worry about my gun, what condition it is in, what lever to push, what mode of fire to adopt, etc. I want to be free to deal with whatever is happening around me knowing that if I have to shoot all I need to do is aim and pull the trigger. That's why I carry a hammerless DA revolver.

The only weakness to this system is reloading the weapon, i.e. completely ejecting the fired cases and inserting new rounds. Speedloaders can solve half the problem, a short case can solve the other, a short case WITH moon clips can solve both. And if I can get the same ballistics from a short case that I can get from a long one then why not use the short one? It effectively solves another weakness in this particular mechanical system and doesn't reduce performance.

This was the reasoning behind my original post. I note with interest the comments about how other people have noted this issue and have done things such as use moon clips with traditional revolver cartridges (.38/.357), use old or semi-obsolete cases that are short (.38 S&W), or develop short cases with dimensions compatible with longer cartridges (.45 Cowboy).

[Bret4207]

Bret:

The 44 Charter is another "unsung hero" in the light carry gun saga. Much better than a snubby 38 and just as easy to carry.

I own a 4 inch target version of it and it shoots nice.

However you have never had unburned powder get under the star when reloading a wheel gun? One of the reasons I switched to ball powder years ago was the need to keep a toothbrush in my range gear to brush under the star every once in a while.

Other wise the powder grains cause the star to bind because it hasn't fully closed this can either make it hard to open or to close and then fire.

You are also correct that we can do the what if's until the cows come home, ( much like polls during election year) to prove our favorite point.

I think Elmer Kieth wouldn't be handi capped with a derringer! But when I see John Q. Citizen wander into a gun store for the first time because his "hood" is getting a little "rough", and, not knowing anything, asks for "help" with a selection every time the clown behind the counter sells him a J frame snubby or a 12 guage pump gun.

Real slick clowns try to sell both!

Just don't see the one size fits all "miracle" of the J frame snubby!


And that is my real beef.

Again no burn intended just stating what I've seen as food for thought.

Huh, can't say I ever had that happen. Of course now that you've brought it up I'm bound to have it happen the next time I go shooting. Anything that can go wrong probably will eventually.

We it me in that gun store I'd probably be selling those guys 10-22's or a 20 gauge shotty. If he had to have a handgun I'd be far more inclined to set him up with a K frame 4" 38 than most anything else. If it had to be an auto I'd be more likely to try and steer him towards a real simple unit like a Glock than most other things. For that matter a Ruger Mk1,11 or 111 would probably work for a house gun.

It's cool as far as differing opinions go. I just don't see anyone armed with a decent piece as "hobbled". Lets face it 99% of self defense is getting your head outta your backside and staying away from trouble.

[klcarroll]

Hmmmm………..

Throughout this discussion, “ThePerfessor” has made perfect sense! (…At least from my point of view.)

Like all mechanical contrivances, small, concealable handguns are a collection of engineering and ergonomic compromises; ……And what makes one man happy may not please another: ……..But in this particular case, I find myself closely agreeing with his choices!

ThePerfessor appears to favor non-magnum calibers like the .38 and .44 Special rounds: ….A choice I whole-heartedly endorse!! You will probably not have much choice about “the where and when” when the need arises to draw your weapon, ….but the odds are that it will be in the dark. Who needs the kind of pyrotechnics and noise that attends the discharge of some of the “Super Calibers”????

Like ThePerfessor, I have come to prefer revolvers; (……Even though there is still a special place in my heart for my old steel frame Commander in .45 ACP.) ……and I completely agree with him that I want my empties to be FULLY ejected without any additional mucking about!

This whole discussion is about perfecting the “package” you are most comfortable with.


Kent

[Piedmont]

Well if we are going to talk about perfect....Several months ago at a gun show I saw an I frame 2" .38 S&W from 1938. J frames have gotten larger since they chambered the first in .357. All have the long cylinder and consequent longer frame window. This I frame had a smaller frame window than even the pre-.357 J frames and the butt was shorter too.

It was a beautiful gun but I couldn't go for it because the .38 S&W is a weak sister, especially from a 2" but I was left with the thought that THAT was a perfect pocket revolver. What if we could get that gun in this new rimmed high pressure 9mm?

[klcarroll]

..............It was a beautiful gun but I couldn't go for it because the .38 S&W is a weak sister, especially from a 2" but I was left with the thought that THAT was a perfect pocket revolver. What if we could get that gun in this new rimmed high pressure 9mm?

Yes, .....that revolver in a modern caliber WOULD be nice; .......But don't excuse it based on it's original chambering!!

The .38 S&W is currently thought of as a "Weak Sister" only because of the light commercial loads that are configured to be safe in all of the old, American black-powder top-breaks that are still around.

One of the rounds I currently load for my Webleys is the .38/200 British. This round is nothing more than a .38 S&W case with a 200 grain lead boolit stuffed into it. My load chronographs at 710 fps out of a four inch Webley, and it produces that velocity at pressures that are well within the tolerance of a J-Frame Smith.

I get a lot of kidding at the range about my Webleys: .....But anyone who has heard one of those 200 grain boolits slap the 100 yard steel plate has stopped laughing!

Kent

[bhn22]

Well if we are going to talk about perfect....Several months ago at a gun show I saw an I frame 2" .38 S&W from 1938. J frames have gotten larger since they chambered the first in .357. All have the long cylinder and consequent longer frame window. This I frame had a smaller frame window than even the pre-.357 J frames and the butt was shorter too.

It was a beautiful gun but I couldn't go for it because the .38 S&W is a weak sister, especially from a 2" but I was left with the thought that THAT was a perfect pocket revolver. What if we could get that gun in this new rimmed high pressure 9mm?


It was likely an "I" frame gun you saw if it was in 38 S&W. They were known as "Terriers". The I frame is now long gone, I think it was last seen in the guise of the "22/32" kit gun, many years ago.

[ironhead7544]

Try running some 38 S&W brass through a 38 Special size die. Should work. Could use a 9mm bullet seater.

[Bret4207]

It was a beautiful gun but I couldn't go for it because the .38 S&W is a weak sister, especially from a 2" but I was left with the thought that THAT was a perfect pocket revolver. What if we could get that gun in this new rimmed high pressure 9mm?

I'd be rethinking that "weak sister" thing. At self defense range is a BG really going to care if it's a 150 at 800 fps or 1000 fps? There have been a heck of a lot of people that had all the fight taken out of them with one pop to the nose or with one shot from a 22lr. If you are going to need more than a couple rounds then you should have brought an M60 and a radio for air support.

I think a lot of us in our musings about "what if" ignore reality or "probable chance" and think in terms of Mel Gibson/Sylvester Stallone/ Ahnold movies. If you get the highly motivated/intent on killing you/up on drugs/crazed father raper/Ex-Spetnaz Mutant Zombie Biker type it isn't going to matter much if you've got 5 boolits at 750 or 50 at 1300. What's going to matter is sticking one in a vital area and penetrating to the light. That's about all that's going to stop the really determined BG. By the time he leaks out from arm, leg and abdomen hits he's going to be on top of you and beating your head in with the nearest handy rock he can find. OTH, the much larger chance is you are going to be facing the trespasser, burglar, drunk, "dissed" homie type that simply has no intention of letting you put a bunch of holes in his clothes as long as he can vamoose.

If you tend to run into a lot of Mutant Zombie Biker types then you need a large bore shotgun or rifle, not a handgun of any type.

[klcarroll]

Try running some 38 S&W brass through a 38 Special size die. Should work. Could use a 9mm bullet seater.


The Starline .38S&W brass I use is certainly beefy enough to deal with "higher performance" loadings; .......But the practicality of such a usage would depend on how tight the chambers are on your particular .38 Special: ......The .38 S&W case measures .384" right above the rim (...where you won't get to with the sizing die!), and most .38 Special brass measures .375" - .376" in the same area.

I really think that a "Terrier size" revolver chambered in .38 S&W would be really desirable! The short cartridge would eject completely (as ThePerfessor advocates), and I am quite sure that the Starline .38 S&W brass would handle pressures up to "starting" 9mm levels.

My confidence in that brass comes from having reloaded thousands of .38/200 military duplication loads (...and warmer!) for my Webleys. Even my 700+ fps, 200 grain load produces NO measurable case expansion in the head area, and ejects from the weapon with no more effort than unfired brass! (In the pressure range that Webleys run in, primers are useless as pressure indicators!)

I wish I had seen that S&W Terrier at that gun show!!! ......I'd have snapped it up in a heartbeat!


Kent

[klcarroll]

..........I think a lot of us in our musings about "what if" ignore reality or "probable chance" and think in terms of Mel Gibson/Sylvester Stallone/ Ahnold movies. If you get the highly motivated/intent on killing you/up on drugs/crazed father raper/Ex-Spetnaz Mutant Zombie Biker type it isn't going to matter much if you've got 5 boolits at 750 or 50 at 1300. What's going to matter is sticking one in a vital area and penetrating to the light. That's about all that's going to stop the really determined BG. By the time he leaks out from arm, leg and abdomen hits he's going to be on top of you and beating your head in with the nearest handy rock he can find. OTH, the much larger chance is you are going to be facing the trespasser, burglar, drunk, "dissed" homie type that simply has no intention of letting you put a bunch of holes in his clothes as long as he can vamoose................


Absolutely spot on! ......My own experiences completely confirm what you are saying.

In "Everyday Life", I have twice had the misfortune of finding myself in circumstances where drawing my weapon was unavoidable.

In both cases, as soon as it became clear to all involved that that WAS INDEED a handgun in my hand, the "Opposition" suddenly remembered an important engagement elsewhere; .......And they departed in a way that would have made Jesse Owens proud!


Kent

[Bret4207]

As far as the Terrier size guns go there are still lots of H+R, IJ, Smith and other brand 5 and 6 shot top break and swing out guns floating around. I've even had my eye on a spur trigger little Smith 32 that would be a very nice little pocket gun. If you are willing to look around and find one in good shape that indexes well and hasn't been stored in a tool box in a wet basement for 75 years you might just find a nice little carry gun. It won't win you any points on Glocktalk or TheHighRoad, much less with the local MallNinjaTacticalExtremeZigZower crowd, but when that feral pit bull cross decides to eat you for supper or Rufus T. Dirtbag and his Louisville Slugger decide to request your wallet outside the 7-11 some summer evening to enhance his economic standing among the other crack addicts you might just find it's a perfectly suitable tool to use in those situation.

[HeavyMetal]

Brett:
I agree 100 Percent on stating different opinions.

Without that input we learn nothing which is way were here in the first place.

A lot of decent guns out there and I'll back your suggestion about a 4 inch K frame( if it hits POA @POI) as a house gun every time!

Love reading threads that get a little side tracked: ya never know what your going to learn!