Boolits for K-31

[mag_01]

I'm going to push the K-31 boolits up to J---- velocity's with 30-31 powder and a 220gr boolit I have gone as high as high as 31grs. hoping to get to 36 or so. Anyone see any problem with this ? Should I use the hardest boolit I can make WW-----Lino----Babbitt -- water dropped. Thanks for your input ----Mag

Love the K-31------And I still love my MN's

[Ricochet]

Since the maximum pressure for that rifle is 45,000 PSI, I wonder if a slower burning powder may not be better than 3031 for attempting to reach jacketed bullet velocities. What I plan to start with (when I either get my reloadable Prvi Partizan ammo that's been delayed getting to AIM and thence to me or modify some GP-11 cases to use LR primers) is 7383 under quenched wheelweight HBC, about 200 grains. For that boolit I'll start with 3.4cc of 7383, which is about 41 grains, then try 3.7cc, which is about 45.5 grains. IF there's plenty of room in the case to do it without compressing the powder (which 7383 doesn't like much, tending to become erratic with wide velocity spreads), I'd think 4.0cc (about 48 grains) would be a maximum I wouldn't try to exceed. If I were using a 220 grainer, I surely wouldn't go past the 3.7cc load and probably would stop at 3.4cc. Depends on how much boolit sticks down in the case. The leade is very short in a K-31 and you can't seat out very far. I haven't seen any published data for bullets that heavy in the Swiss, and have to extrapolate.

In the .30-06, my old 46th edition Lyman handbook shows a 210 grain #311284 over 50.0 grains 4350 as a maximum for 2422 FPS and 47,800 CUP. That book doesn't show 3031. Closest is H-4895, which goes to a maximum of 43.0 grains for 2335 FPS at 45,600 CUP. So the 36 grains of 3031 sounds reasonable as a goal. Case volume of the 7.5 Swiss is pretty close to the .30-06, I think (the .284 Winchester case is cloned off of it), 7383 is close to 4350 in burning rate, but it's less dense and because of the short leade the bullet will have to take up more space that would otherwise go to powder.

This all likely means that it's just about impossible to dangerously overload the 7.5 Swiss for the K-31 with 7383 under cast boolits, as long as it's not insanely compressed and crushed. That's the case with most mid-size cartridges and usual bullet weights. But I still plan to approach it cautiously, and definitely avoid crushing it.

What are you planning to lube with? I've had good success with White Lightning on these boolits at ~2000 FPS in the .300 Weatherby, and just dip lubed a batch in molten Johnson's Paste Wax this afternoon to see how they do. I think I've read reports of good performance to 2200 FPS or so with that.

[versifier]

The higher the pressure, the harder (stronger) the alloy to prevent stripping. As long as you aren't contemplating a hunting boolit, I would say go with WD Lino. But work up slowly - I overdid it pushing the limit with ww boolits in my .308 and it lead fouled wicked in just a few rounds - groups went suddenly from 2" range to shotgun patterns and it took forever to get all of it out. That was before I discovered Rigg #44.

[Leftoverdj]

just dip lubed a batch in molten Johnson's Paste Wax this afternoon to see how they do. I think I've read reports of good performance to 2200 FPS or so with that.

Not from me, you didn't. Johnson's works for me to about 1400 fps from carbine barrels.

[Duckiller]

Ricochet
How do you modify GP11 cases to take LR primers? I have a small supply and it is too nice to throw away. RCBS makes a berdan depriming tool. Is there a cheaper way to deprime?
Duckiller

[NickSS]

A qick way to deprime Berdan brass is to use a block of wood with a hole drilled that will hold the case. Put the block in a vise and use a sharp pointed Awl to punch into the primer indent at an angle then just pop the primer out. Once you get the hang of it you can deprime almost as fast as you can use a punch to punch out Boxer primers. I useded to cnvert 6.5 Carcano brass to Boxer primers by poping out the primer and drilling the anvel out of the case. The brass I had would take a regular LR primer after that. The swiss case might work the same. I wish I knew where to get berdan primers as I would like to experment with them.

[Ricochet]

That's the problem, finding Berdan primers. Nobody seems to currently have them so far as I can find from Web searching.

The GP-11 case uses a .217" primer. A friend has used cases made for Berdan primers of this size with LR primers for years. He removes the anvil by one of several methods, the quickest and dirtiest being to steady the case on a steel rod with a flat face against the inside head of the case (5/16" rod works in this case) and hammer the anvil flat with a punch. This will likely close the two flash holes. The hammering also work hardens the brass in the primer pocket. A new flash hole can then be drilled, either from the outside or inside of the case. He has made drill guides to do it from inside. I may try center punching the center of the pocket and drilling with a hand held drill with a 1/16" bit. I'm also about to check and see if a 5.5mm bit will work from the outside to remove the anvil. A 5.5mm bit is nominally .2165" and the .217" pocket might work as a drill guide itself if the angle of the bit tip and depth of the anvil tip allow. Otherwise it would require secure, precise clamping of the case under a drill press so the tip of the bit is precisely centered on the tip of the anvil.

Now, having removed the anvil to allow for a Boxer primer to be seated and drilled a new central flash hole that will allow a Boxer decapping pin to pass through without breaking, one problem remains. LR primers are .210" in diameter, and the pocket is .217". My friend solves this problem by pushing the primer through typing paper to seat it. The paper is compressed around the sides between the primer cup and pocket and acts as a gasket. It readily punctures over the flash hole to allow the flame to pass through, but on the sides it's caught between the expanding cup of the primer and the very stiff wall of the primer pocket. Before you say something like "Paper can't possibly hold the 60,000 PSI pressure and 5000°F flame of a rifle cartridge!," pause to consider things like how many small gasoline engines in lawnmowers have run well for years with a head gasket cut from a Corn Flakes box and sealed with ordinary grease? The paper itself isn't resisting the pressure by its own strength, it's supported by the surrounding metal and clamped tightly by the pressure of the exploding primer mix and powder gas pressure obturating the cup. And as for temperature, the peak gas temperature is very high, but that's only effective on the gasket if there is a channel leaking gas through it. The brass doesn't heat all that much in firing, and surrounds the gasket tightly, leaving only an edge exposed. And those of us who use Dacron filler have experienced dandelion-like clouds of this fine plastic fiber wafting around after firing, not having melted or burned under direct contact with powder gas completely surrounding the fibers. The paper between the cup and pocket doesn't burn.

Anyway, the "proof of the pudding" is that my friend has been doing it successfully for years with service-level jacketed bullet loads in 6.5x55mm Swedish, 7.62x54R and 7.5x54mm MAS. Can't argue with success. There may well be even better gasket materials for this purpose than paper, but it's been shown to work.

What is the conversion method mentioned in the book on "Cartridge Conversions?" Is that George Nonte's book?

[mag_01]

The GP11 brass primer hole is too big for a large rifle primer----anyone have any Ideas as of now I'm using PVRI brass from loaded ammo (PVRI--or---Wolf)---Wolf gold---same brass works well shot some today.---Mag



Lead Lead Santa please Lead----:Fire: :Fire:

[floodgate]

Nick:

When stabbing the awl, be careful not to nick [sorry! That wasn't intended as a slam] the anvil; that can give you trouble with ignition and could conceivably - if it raises enough of a burr - fire the primer when seating it. After many firings, the anvil may get beaten too flat to work any more, though I've never reached that point. I reloaded a number of Berdan-primed brass shotshells many years back, when they and the primers could be gotten from Alcan.

RCBS offers a Berdan depriming tool (they inherited it from Lachmiller), but it has never worked well for me and tends to damage the anvil if not operated "just so". I reground an "el cheapo" awl with a wooden knob handle to a fine "onglette" point (sort of diamond-shaped, with the sharp corner sticking out), and this worked just fine.

floodgate

[jack19512]

Is there a cheaper way to deprime?





Yes. Cost, nothing. Works great.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/Berdandecappingtool-1.jpg

[Dutch4122]

Not from me, you didn't. Johnson's works for me to about 1400 fps from carbine barrels.

Best I've done so far with Johnson's Paste Wax was 1800+ fps out of my long barreled 8x57 Persian Mauser. The load was 18 grains of 2400 behind the 8mm 175 grn GB boolit. Also shot the same 18 grains of 2400 in the 7.5x54 French Mas-36 behind the JPW dip lubed RCBS 30-180-SP that weighed 190 grns out of straight wheelweight. Didn't chrono that load, though, but accuracy was right on par with any other lube and 16-18 grns of 2400.

I think whether or not JPW will work up to and over 2,000 fps would depend on a lot of factors. I'd love to hear if anybody makes it work.

[drinks]

I have made several tool sets to convert Berdan to Boxer.
I make a rod the bullet diameter, less .001", drill out the end to take a .080" bit, cross drill and tap for a set screw, insert a piece of .080 bit and let it stick out about 3/16", drill the case from the mouth, this removes the anvil and lets you deprime with a regular die.
To take care of the problem of the oversize pocket, I make a punch that is .208 diameter on a .120 long nose and with a flange of .260 diameter, place the case on a bullet sized flat faced drift as an anvil and hammer the punch until it is difficult to remove from the primer pocket. Usually takes a repeat after 10-15 reloads to tighten the pocket again.

[kywoodwrkr]

drinks,
Have you tried your swaging process on Federal brass whose primer pocket has loosened?
Just wondering.
Thanks.
DaveP kywoodwrkr

[drinks]

KY;
Yes, my first trials were on .30-30 brass I drilled out to .015 oversize, I could return the pocket to hold a standard primer.
I would not recommend swaging a primer pocket down on a case that had a head diameter larger than normal, I would expect the case to be ready for a head separation after having had charges that were well over pressure limits.

[Ricochet]

I'm experimenting with Boxer priming the GP-11 cases as discussed above. It's a piece of cake to deprime the Berdans. Didn't need all that fancy stuff mentioned on surplusrifle.com. Just a 5/16" clevis pin, a 3/8" nut to set the case on, and a hammer. And some water. One good whack does it, a harder whack than I'd thought. I used my Lee Universal Expanding Die to very slightly bell the mouths for easy insertion. There's no mess with the water. It sprays out a fog that only goes 2-3". Doesn't even get close to my glasses. I hold the case by its midsection so the spray can't hit my fingers. It's probably supersonic, like Diesel spray. They're in the oven drying now. Then I'll check out the situation with the anvils. The whack with the clevis pin removes the crimp in the case neck.

[Ken O]

I reload the GP11 quite often. Depriming is no problem, my method: set the brass in a 1/2" socket (3/8 drive). take a long shank 5/16" bolt and cut it off where the threads start. Put it in a drill press and use emory paper to take it down so it just slips in the neck of the brass.
Dunk the brass in water, set it in the socket, one smack of the hammer on the bolt will pop the primer out into the socket drive hole. Only a couple drops of water come out, its simpler and quicker than what it takes to describe.
I recently bought a sleeve (5000) of Berdan primers from the Brassmanbrass http://www.brassmanbrass.com/
He doesn't list it on the website, you have to call him.
I loaded the 311041 group buy boolits over 38gr of 3130 and had decent results. They shot real good on the short lines (200 and 300 yards) but at midrange (600 yards) they opened up, I kept them in the black, but barely. I had much better luck with the jacketed at 600. I have some trouble with the back sight with my 59 year old eyeballs, it is a little close and I get a double blurr. There is probably a better boolit for the longer distance.

[Ricochet]

I've just emptied out a box of Prvi Partizan 174 grain SP, which groups just as well as, to the same POI, and at the same velocity as GP-11. Very good stuff, and a bullet I found in the grass in the impact zone had mushroomed very nicely in the clay. Definitely recommended as a factory hunting load. It's got nice Boxer primed brass, which I've reprimed with CCI #34, filled with 3.4cc of IMR 7383 (which struck off level with a knife is about 40.8 grains), and seated HBC bullets lubed with Johnson's Paste Wax. They have to seat so that the upper end of the straight side is exactly level with the case mouth, as that puts them right aginst the origin of the lands. I crimped them in with the Factory Crimp Die (Prvi, unusually for factory loads, uses no crimp), and dipped the noses back to the case mouth in molten JPW. That combination worked well enough today at the range in my .300 Weatherby, with not a speck of leading at 2000 FPS. 3.4cc is just about a full capacity load with this boolit, since it has to be seated so deeply. The base of the bullet is well below the shoulder. The powder filled the case to just about the level the bullet base reaches, and I can barely hear a rattle when I shake it. A tiny bit more would start compressing. The apparent case capacity is more, nearly equal to the .30-06, but the deep seated bullets cut way into it. As my 7383 burns similarly to 4350, I expect this charge to be very close to 2K FPS, which certainly is plenty with a 200 grain bullet.

[Ricochet]

Here are my first handloads for the Swiss carbine. They're using Aladdin's HBC bullets cast from wheelweights, dropped from the mould into water and aged to harden them, and dipped in molten Johnson's Paste Wax for lubrication. Prior to the waxing, they were bright silver. Slippery little boogers to pull out of the box by the bullets to stand up for the photo!

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/SlidePicker/SwissHBC.jpg

Time to go shoot 'em now, so I can load 'em up again!

[Ricochet]

1995 FPS. No leading. 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards. (Not bad for me.)

[Junior1942]

1995 FPS. No leading. 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards. (Not bad for me.)Let me get this straight. There's no other lube on those bullets but Johnson's Wax? There's no Johnson's Wax in the lube grooves, just on the noses?

[Ricochet]

Nothing's on there but Johnson's Paste Wax. They were first dipped into the wax held by the nose, so the bases and sides were covered. They'd dried well, and most of the wax on the sides flaked off in seating, but hopefully there's still some in the grooves. After seating the bullets, I dipped the noses back to the case mouths. I'm thinking it would be an improvement to the process to do the base dipping shortly before starting loading so the wax on the sides and grooves is still somewhat soft and won't flake so badly. I saw some flaking of dried wax off the sides as it was sheared by the case mouths as the bullets were partially seated that had lifted the wax right out of lube grooves. The biggest part of the wax is carried on the noses. But as is, at ~2000 FPS I had a nice black bore with no leading at all, and a "lube star" of melted wax appeared in the muzzle crown.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Ricochet,

do you seee the molten JPW as an effective lubricant with a mini-groove design?

Rich

[Ricochet]

I think it would be. Operating of course within appropriate pressure and velocity parameters for the boolit type.

I'm strongly considering dumping my leftover LLA into my can of molten JPW. My hypothesis is that it'll improve the adhesion of the JPW to metal. I've got another can of JPW I can use on things that actually need to be waxed and polished. The only downside I see to JPW is that when it's good and dry, it flakes off fairly easy leaving bare shiny metal.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

what about AA5744 and 311284 or311332/34?

Rich
I would like someone else to do the dirty work here for me
<inri><

[Ricochet]

Won't be me. I don't have those moulds or that powder.

[yodar]

Ricochet I got in late to this thread. Whose mould made your beautiful GP-11 bullets?

Yodar in O'do

[Ricochet]

That was a group buy custom mould about two years ago, designed by a guy whose handle was Aladdin. It's a single cavity mould, as the boolit's too long for the six cavity blocks. Some users reported rather lackluster accuracy with the loads they tried; you might be able to find one willing to sell you theirs.

I understand there was an earlier version of this "HBC" (High Ballistic Coefficient) mould in 8mm. I'd like to have one of those to play with, too!

[Ricochet]

I've learned that in my K-31, the chamber neck (i.e., the part that accommodates the case neck) extends about 1/16" or 1.5mm forward of the case mouth, then abruptly closes down with a right angle shelf to exactly .308". A .311" boolit seats in the case neck and chambers fine, but in pushing it into the bore throat .003" is being shaved off. Or at least it's shaving partway back, then probably the ring of lead in the throat makes a tapering swage. A bullet of .308" will fit into the bore throat and goes about .1" farther before the rifling stops it. I think I probably should acquire a .308" sizing die and try that for the K-31. I hate to think what that squared off aperture of .308" might do to my .311" gas checks!

[Ricochet]

Today I fired some 7.5 Swiss I'd loaded up yesterday, stepping up the load of 7383 to the maximum that will reasonably fit under the 200 grain HBC boolit, which is a leveled 3.7cc scoop, or 45 grains. I thought that would be getting up into full-power J-bullet territory, but not maximum pressure. Turns out that with a boolit of hardened WW, oversized at .311", dipped in molten JPW, crimped, set against the bore origin, and lit with a magnum primer, it's actually too hot with sticky extraction. Got to back off. (There are no visible high pressure signs, the primers look fine, but sticky extraction means it's too much. Maximum allowable average pressure is 45,000 CUP.) Velocities were extremely uniform in the 2150 FPS range. The bore stayed nice and clean, with the barest detectable trace of lead in the corners of the grooves. Powder burned very completely. As with most lubed cast boolit loads, it makes some white smoke. A bystander told me that on every shot, the boolits were trailing a white spiral of smoke for about 25 yards out in front of the muzzle! I couldn't see that for the smoky muzzle cloud.

Accuracy was dismal. I was having a hard time getting any holes on paper at 100 yards. At 50 yards, I was making a pattern of about 1 foot. Can't call it a group.

What I think was happening is that the peak pressure went well above what the hardened wheelweight alloy is up to for supporting the long cantilevered ogive of this boolit, and they were slumping asymmetrically. The pressure seems to have been in fact higher than reasonable for a jacketed bullet in this cartridge and rifle. The spiral tracks left by the smoking boolits point to gross instability of the boolits at muzzle exit. If they were flying right, it should have been straight streaks of smoke, actually with some slight spiralling, but I don't think it would be enough to be visible.

But under these abnormally extreme conditions, the Johnson's Paste Wax still kept the bore from leading, and lube starred the muzzle.

Also, this is a demonstration that very good velocity statistics don't mean you'll have an accurate load.

[Cayoot]

But under these abnormally extreme conditions, the Johnson's Paste Wax still kept the bore from leading, and lube starred the muzzle.


Thanks for the excellent report Ricochet. Concerning the JPW, did you use it straight or did you mix it with Liquid Alox. I know that it was mentioned earlier that it flaked off the boolit easily when used straight.

[Ricochet]

This was straight. Yes, it flaked off the sides on seating, but as I reported above, I dipped the noses in molten JPW after the cartridges were loaded. It doesn't come off in loading the rifle. I do expect it to flake off as the boolit goes up the bore, providing plenty of lube all the way to the muzzle.