Wow - what a difference a plate makes!

[selmerfan]

I have a RD 359-190RF 6 cav that I replaced my 2 cav with because I like the boolit so much. I hadn't cast with it yet, and I've had it for months. I got it out today, boiled the blocks with water and Dawn, molded one good one (which took FOREVER), drilled the top, put the screw in, a little rubbing compound, spun each cavity, basic Lee-menting stuff. Then I went to casting. Darn thing wouldn't fill out! And I don't mean marginal boolits, I mean only half the cavity would fill in the first three, which is why I had such a tough time casting a boolit to leement with. I took it apart, check the vent lines, all looks good, no burrs, the poor boolits were just falling out of the block, no problem there. I played with sprue plate bolt tension, both of them, still no luck, frustrating as hell. I could slowly pour it in and the sprue bubbled slightly like it was trying to vent out the top. I finally decided to try an old 6 cav sprue plate I had. I bolted it on and Voila! perfect boolits jumping, literally, out of the mold. I've never had a mold cast this easily. I can't find any defects with the original plate, any suggestions to look for before I run it over a flat diamond hone to try to fix it?
Selmerfan

[Cap'n Morgan]

My guess is you are filling the mold too fast, not giving the air time to escape. I would also guess the old sprue plate either has larger holes, or is slightly warped, allowing the air to escape between the plate and the top of the mold.

[onondaga]

Cap Morgan has some good points there. Your flow adjustment may be open too far also. That is usually the cause of the gurgling. Adjust so the flow stream so it is smaller than the sprue gate hole. Pour a little off center also and the air will escape much more easily.

Use a dial gauge caliper to measure the difference between the gate hole sizes between the 2 plates. Check flatness of plates on a known good flat plain surface and shine a light to see if there in a space from a warp or bend in the plates.

Gary

Selmer? as in musical instruments?

[selmerfan]

Yes, Selmer as in musical instruments, particularly saxophones, which is my undergrad degree in music ed. Anyway, I tried all of the suggested things that are doable with ladle pouring. I slowed the pour down, but then the fillout wasn't great, even with a good hot mold. My usual technique with 6 cavs is an off-center pour, which works great with my other three. I'm not worried about it, I'm going to use the plate that works, put the other in the drawer. I'll figure it out another time if I need it. :)

[Daddyfixit]

I too suspect that the new sprue plate may have been too tight a fit. On some of my new moulds I have to loosen the plate a little for good fill-out.

[excess650]

I bought a steel sprue cutter from Jim in Phoenix and it transformed my 6 cavity molds. Until I buy another or more, I'll be swappin this one to whichever 6 cavity I'm using. The only downside is the added weight, but I'll deal with the weight rather than make crappy boolits!

[selmerfan]

I did try loosening the plate. I loosened it, I tightened, I use Bullplate on it. I tried pouring on the side, pouring directly in, pouring in slowly (worked, but wrinkly boolits), pressure pouring, you name it, I tried the tricks. Nothing worked until I switched the plates.

[crabo]

I often use a 90 degree countersink to open up my sprueplates a little. It often makes a big difference.

[Shooter6br]

Had a series 7 Selmer clarinet i used for 18 yrs. Started at 7ty grade Cost $350 then. i dont know how my parents afforted it. At 7th grade I was 12 ,now 55.Was a music major at West Chester State University, Clasds 1978 West Chester Pa. Got start and became an R.N not a music teacher. Bundy's were kids. Had a C melody Sax also. Ever here odf a 1920's sax player Rudy Wedoff? ( spelling may be wrong) Rick OFF TOPIC SORRY:groner:

[nanuk]

so, a bigger sprew hole is better?

is there a maximum size where cutting starts to affect the base?

[crabo]

so, a bigger sprew hole is better?

is there a maximum size where cutting starts to affect the base?

I just open it up a little with the countersink. I don't go crazy. Size is in proportion to the boolit you are casting. I like a larger hole for a 45/70 boolit than I do for a 357. Make sure you flaten the bottom of the sprue plate if you open the hole up.

The countersink will also give you a bigger and heavier sprue which will allow for a better fillout in your base of the boolit. It seems like to me, the added space in the sprueplate, helps the lead to stay fluid a little longer while it sucks down into the cavity, filling out the base better.

[cajun shooter]

+1 on post by Crabo as I have had two Lee 6 cavity molds that required the sprue plate to be opened up. Also as he said make sure your file or sand off the ridges before installing.

[HeavyMetal]

I didn't see it mentioned so I'll ask: did you bevel the top edge of the mold while you were doing the Lee-menting thing?

When I prep a mold I will hold it at an angle and run it over some 2000 grit sandpaper mounted on an old floor tile for flatness. The idea is one last vent line right under the sprue plate. I generally try to "fake" a 60 degree angle and when I put the two mold half's together you see a small trough across the top of the mold which allows the base area to vent nicely.

The trick is not to over do this!

[onondaga]

I thought so, I liked the off topic. One of my sons is a solid sax player. I play flute and piccolo. Selmers are great instruments.

Gary

[geargnasher]

I had and played a Buesher 400 for some years. Always wanted a Selmer, but by the time I could afford one my interests had shifted. It never ceases to amaze me the talent in the membership here, I've remember off-topic shifts to discuss pianos and seed scarification, you name it!

As for sprue holes, a good TiN-coated countersink that matches the angle of the existing sprue well will do wonders, go slow and use quality cutting fluid. Dress the back side with a piece of heavy glass and wet sandpaper to remove the puckers so it doesn't tear up your mould blocks. Beveling the blocks as has been mentioned helps too, but the swirl-pouring method works better than anything I've tried to solve vent problems. It is possible to peen the spout on Lee bottom pour furnaces and redrill the hole smaller (3/32" works well IIRC) and the smaller stream really helps too.

Gear

[Echo]

Had a series 7 Selmer clarinet i used for 18 yrs. Started at 7ty grade Cost $350 then. i dont know how my parents afforted it. At 7th grade I was 12 ,now 55.Was a music major at West Chester State University, Clasds 1978 West Chester Pa. Got start and became an R.N not a music teacher. Bundy's were kids. Had a C melody Sax also. Ever here odf a 1920's sax player Rudy Wedoff? ( spelling may be wrong) Rick OFF TOPIC SORRY:groner:


C Melody, Huh? A guy in my HS band played one - NEVER see 'em!

Me, trombonist...

[crabo]

C Melody, Huh? A guy in my HS band played one - NEVER see 'em!

Me, trombonist...

Myself, I am partial to my Sadowsky 5 string bass, Eden 550 and Bag End cabinets, as long as we are taking a rabbit trail.

[selmerfan]

I played a Mark VI for jazz and a Serie III for classical (altos) for many years, and swore that I had the perfect combination. I lived close to Randy Jones at www.tenormadness.com for many years and he worked on all of my horns. I walked in one day and he wanted me to try a combo of horn, neck and mouthpiece (he loved to try his new innovations and experiments out on me once in a while) and I just about bought it right then and there. What I did do is put both of my Selmers on consignment with him, he sold them at a good price, and I used the money to buy this new horn and pay for some of seminary. That horn, which is my current setup and likely always will be, is a Selmer Reference 54 with two different necks, both of which Randy has tweaked the bores on. One is a Ref. 54 neck that he has opened up for more sound and flexibility, and it just roars, I can't put too much air through it. The other, for classical work, is a modified Serie III that I have amazing and complete control over the sound, volume, and nuance I want in the horn. I find it astonishing how much difference a neck can make, also playing two different mouthpieces of course with different ligatures. Now I'm out of the closet, my two most expensive hobbies are saxophones and guns, and we have about equal money invested in both, as my wife is still a band director and we have all of the woodwinds (she's a clarinetist, plays a pro Buffet R13) for her with the exception of oboe, plus a trumpet and trombone, and her piano of course. :) Yes, off topic thread, but sometimes a tangent is fun! I ran a private sax studio for many years giving private lessons. Every player that came through my door that was interested in a different horn got to make a short road trip to Randy's house where they got to play dozens of horns. He would never tell the prices on individual horns, he just asked for a top-end figure and then started digging out horns. They got to play until they found a horn THEY liked and they sounded good on. Frequently that was a Selmer, but not always. There are other great makers out there, but for my money the Selmer just has "it" in terms of sound and character. I'll never be without a Selmer saxophone, although if I buy a tenor the M'Lady tenors that Randy is putting together in his shop are downright amazing, and I'll buy one of them before I pay 5 figures for a good Selmer tenor. He's custom ordering the body dimensions and then building all of the keywork on the horn in-shop, and selling them for under $4,000. It's a hell of a deal! Okay, that's enough sax nerd talk, back to the molten stream for me. :)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Off-off topic


It never ceases to amaze me the talent in the membership here, I've remember off-topic shifts to discuss pianos and seed scarification, you name it!

had to google seed scarification !!!

I have been gardening for 30+ years
and I have 2 very close friends that are Vegetable farmers.
we talk growing, seed starting...everything, even vernalization.
I have never heard of seed scarification.
(although, I was aware of some Pine cones that need to go
through a fire or something to be able to germinate...seed scarification ! )

thanks Gear, I like to learn something new everyday...and just Did !
Jon

[JIMinPHX]

so, a bigger sprew hole is better?


Sometimes.

I've made a fair number of custom sprue plates for various people now. The requested size of the sprue hole seems to vary more than any other feature. When making small boolits, like .22's, some people ask for sprue holes as small as .070" diameter, which I think is too small. Other people who make very large boolits, like 500 grain monsters for black powder rifles, sometimes want an oversized sprue hole so that they can fill the whole cavity fast, before the lead starts to thicken up. Some people prefer the large sprue holes so that they can have extra room around the lead stream to allow air to escape while pouring.

For the most part, I stick with standard size sprue holes for my own personal use. I do sharpen my sprue holes though. That always seems to help.

Sometimes, venting the underside of a sprue plate will help with fill out too.

The best combination of sprue plate dimensions & features seems to vary with alloy, temperature, cavity size, cavity shape & most of all casting technique. I don't think that there is any single one-size-fits-all solution of the perfect sprue plate.

By varying your casting technique, you can usually make almost anything work.

[NHlever]

"Sometimes, venting the underside of a sprue plate will help with fill out too."

Yes, I have an old, fine metal checkering file that I have sometimes used lightly on stubborn sprue plates. The marks are cut off when you rotate the sprue plate, and it has seemed to help in some cases. Sometimes I've had Lee sprue plates (two cavity) that just don't want to work right no matter what.