Hardball vs Isotope v Sam's Choice Alloys

[morme@gte.net]

Not sure if a new thread is appropriate, or if I should have posted in my other thread, but with a new/differrent question, I went with new.

If I have all my information correctly, the 3 popular alloys are as follows

Hardball 2%-Tin,-6%-Antimony-And-92%-Lead
Isotope 2.5%-Tin,-2.5%-Antimony-And-95%-Lead
Sam Recommended 96 Pb-3 Sb- 1 Sn. Sam wrote "I recommend the 96-3-1 Alloy that I sell for most anything, WD for higher velocity"

Would anyone care to expound on the differences, and advantages or disadvantages of each?

I can make any/all from what I have on hand. I only have 25lbs 4-6% Antimony (from Shot). I also have nearly 100 lbs 99%pure, and a 1lb Tin bar. I want to keep most of the 99% for my Black Powder loads. You shoult try loading a hard ball (even as low as 8 BH) using a 2.5" loading lever the 1860 Army Sheriff's model has. I loaded 1 and needed to put a 4" piece of pipe over the lever and smack it with a hammer (lots of times). After trying the 1, all the ball I poured went back into the melting pot.

Blending (please check my math)
Hardball 2 Sn, 6 Sb, 92 Pb = 10 lbs Shot (assuming 6%) + 3.2 oz tin
Isotope 2.5 Sn, 2.5 Sb, 95 Pb = 5 lb shot + 5lb pure + 4 oz tin
Sam's Choice 1 Sn, 3 Sb, 96 Pb = 6 lb shot + 4 lb pure + 1.6 oz tin (5% Sb in shot)

Sam won't have his Isotope alloy available for a couple weeks. I could just blend what I have into Hardball or 96-3-1, and wait, but as I said in another thread I would prefer to have fewer alloys around if I can get away with it.

Right now there are 3 alloys in the running. It appears very few votes for Lyman#2


Thanks for playing

Matthew

[badbob454]

they all look nice but sam"s 1% tin i would like to have 2% tin to fill out the cavitys , breaks surface tension ... 1 % may work , but i would feel more secure with 2% IMHO..

[KYCaster]

Smart guy, that Sam. Looks like he has all his (smokeless) bases covered with those three alloys.

92-6-2....~16 BHN.....works for about 90% of what I do, which is mostly paper punching with various rifles, revolvers and semi-autos. For most hunting I'd prefer a more malleable alloy, but for deep penetration without deformation, this one will do very well. It can be heat treated to increase hardness, but so can softer alloys, so the extra Sb and Sn aren't necessary if that's what you want to do. Lots of applications will do very well with a softer alloy and some (.45ACP - .38SPL) actually prefer softer.

That's why he recommends........

96-3-1....~12BHN.....Slightly harder than WW. Works well for a wide range of rifle and pistol applications. Can be effectively heat treated if that's what you need for the HV rifle/revolver loads. Very malleable, even when HT'd so should do well for most HP's.

95-2.5-2.5........Not something I've tried myself, so my comments are based on what others have posted. Someone here (sorry, don't remember who :oops:) did a pretty extensive test on alloys with equal amounts of Sb and Sn and concluded that that ratio maximizes TOUGHNESS without sacrificing malleability. IIRC, he settled on 92-4-4 as optimum with the best balance of expansion to retained weight, with lesser amounts of Sb and Sn being nearly as good. So based on that, this one should be good for a hunting alloy.

Hope that helps.......
Jerry

[geargnasher]

All good information. Don't forget that Isotope lead and most hardball (unless derived from wheel weights or magnum shot) doesn't have much if any arsenic in it and can take up to two months to reach full hardness when air-cooled. Wheel weight metal with a trace of arsenic gets mostly to final hardness in a couple of weeks. Size changes, too, antimonial alloys get fatter as they age harden, as much as .001" in .45 Caliber after reaching full hardness.

I'm mentioning this so that, for example, you have a tight fit and size precisely and size after a week or two and then load your ammo you might find in a few weeks or months when you go to shoot it that it won't chamber. Just keep that in mind.

Gear

[morme@gte.net]

Thanks Jerry. Just what I was looking for!

You guys are a fountain of information.


Smart guy, that Sam. Looks like he has all his (smokeless) bases covered with those three alloys.

92-6-2....~16 BHN.....works for about 90% of what I do, which is mostly paper punching with various rifles, revolvers and semi-autos. For most hunting I'd prefer a more malleable alloy, but for deep penetration without deformation, this one will do very well. It can be heat treated to increase hardness, but so can softer alloys, so the extra Sb and Sn aren't necessary if that's what you want to do. Lots of applications will do very well with a softer alloy and some (.45ACP - .38SPL) actually prefer softer.

That's why he recommends........

96-3-1....~12BHN.....Slightly harder than WW. Works well for a wide range of rifle and pistol applications. Can be effectively heat treated if that's what you need for the HV rifle/revolver loads. Very malleable, even when HT'd so should do well for most HP's.

95-2.5-2.5........Not something I've tried myself, so my comments are based on what others have posted. Someone here (sorry, don't remember who :oops:) did a pretty extensive test on alloys with equal amounts of Sb and Sn and concluded that that ratio maximizes TOUGHNESS without sacrificing malleability. IIRC, he settled on 92-4-4 as optimum with the best balance of expansion to retained weight, with lesser amounts of Sb and Sn being nearly as good. So based on that, this one should be good for a hunting alloy.

Hope that helps.......
Jerry

[morme@gte.net]

Sounds like Isotope at 95-2.5-2.5 might just be a good choice based on "someone", and a lot of others here. (equal Sn-Sb)

do you recall what the 92-4-4 hardness was (air cooled)?

I really like hearing about folks personal experiences. I to do mostly paper punching. It helps relieve tension.

another unrelated question (I tend to ramble in my older years).

I am looking for a long .224 mold. 1" max. Think of a 100gn Bator with lots of groves/bands. Does anyone make such an animal? Do folks here "lend" moulds? I'm not rich enough to spend $120+ to experiment. This RCBS 60 gn FN is the heaviest I have found

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/103/103059.jpg

I suspect that the Saeco 60gn Spitzer Bullet Mold #221 has too much unsupported bullet to be accurate in a 1:7 twist barrel, even if the shape should make it longer than the flat nose RCBS.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/102/102179.jpg

I would like to see a 22 cal version of

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/132/132222.jpg

or

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/125/125643.jpg

NOT like this

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/130/130559.jpg

Hope I'm entertaining.



Someone here (sorry, don't remember who :oops:) did a pretty extensive test on alloys with equal amounts of Sb and Sn and concluded that that ratio maximizes TOUGHNESS without sacrificing malleability. IIRC, he settled on 92-4-4 as optimum with the best balance of expansion to retained weight, with lesser amounts of Sb and Sn being nearly as good. So based on that, this one should be good for a hunting alloy.

Hope that helps.......
Jerry

[Doby45]

Most everyone here will not "lend" out their molds. They tried a "mold library" type of thing at one time and it did not work so good. BUT, most EVERYONE here would be more than willing to cast you some boolits with their own molds and ship them to you. Lot of times it is just for the cost of shipping. Guys here cast because they love to cast and if you just give someone the oppourtunity they will normally knock the door down to cast up some lovely boolits and get them to you.

Just ask for the specific mold and the alloy you would "prefer" and how you would like them processed or if you don't want them processed just ask for them as cast.

I have personally cast prolly a thousand boolits since I have been here on CB to send to people so they could try a certain boolit without having to buy the mold and HOPE it is what their gun likes.

[white eagle]

I think 100 gr in 22 cal is pushing it a bit
why not just go up in cal ?

[cajun shooter]

morme, I loaned a mold to a local friend who told me that he had been casting for over 20 years. I took a chance and loaned him one of those $125 moulds you speak of. When it was returned the blocks were a deep purple and warped from being run way too hot. Never Again!! This person did not even offer a dime for the damage. I wanted to take it out of his person but my wife being more level headed talked me out of it. I did let all of our friends know what he did and he is no longer part of the circle.

[morme@gte.net]

I am always in the market for a new rifle, but $$ is tight right now.

Know anyone with a 22 Hornet / K-Hornet they want to let go for not too much $$

The idea behind a 100 grain FP bullet is that it will be short (look at the shape of the Hornady and Sierra 80gn, and the Berger 90gn bullets. The Berger is 1.263 long, but a 100 gn flat point should be about an inch. At cast bullet velocitys, there is no reason for a very high BC bullet since 600 yards is not practical. The examples are for the slow fire 600 yard portion of the NRA rifle comp. The bullets over 77 grain are too long to load in an AR magazine, and have to be single loaded (ok for slow fire)

77gn bullets are less than 1". All 4 require fast twist 1:7 - 1:6.5 barrels.

My thought is that since twist rate is related to length, not weight, a stubby 100gn will pack a punch at lower cast velocitys, and to paraphrase Ollie North, it just sounds like a neat idea. It should work fine in my AR's. A normal 223 or 22-250 bolt rifle has a 1:12 - 1:14 twist, so they are limited to the 30,40,50,53 bullets anyway. It will be interesting to see how the lead free varmint bullets work, since even the 35gn Nosler is 0.735" long (1;10 twist)

I read the Bator mold was originally designed to be the heaviest bullet accurate out of a standard 1:14 twist bolt action rifle which are usually limited to 35-50gn bullets.

My Bator mold bullets weigh 52gn w/ gas check, and measure .532". (1:14)
A Berger 52 gn is .718 (1:10.5)
A Nosler 52 gn BTHP is .730" (1:10.3)

The original M-16 had a 1:12 twist. It was devastating to get shot with it partially because the 55gn bullet was marginally stable, and tumbled when it hit anything (leaf, person). Accuracy was poor. Some in the military think it was a more lethal combination, and the faster twist barrels are just better at paper punching. With the longer SS109, M855A1, and Mk 262 bullets require 1:7 twist.

http://www.hornady.com/store/images/T/228326.jpg Hornady 80
http://www.sierrabullets.com/bulletart/1490.gif Sierra 90
http://www.bergerbullets.com/images/bullets/22cal-90gr-VLD.jpg Berger 90
http://www.nosler.com/Images/Bullets/22421.png Nosler 77


I think 100 gr in 22 cal is pushing it a bit
why not just go up in cal ?

[morme@gte.net]

Man, did he realize what he did? Can you get the manufacturer to mill it flat and re-bore the cavities?

I suppose it would cost more, but I would at lest return it to the manu if they are still in business. maybe they will cover it under warranty.



morme, I loaned a mold to a local friend who told me that he had been casting for over 20 years. I took a chance and loaned him one of those $125 moulds you speak of. When it was returned the blocks were a deep purple and warped from being run way too hot. Never Again!! This person did not even offer a dime for the damage. I wanted to take it out of his person but my wife being more level headed talked me out of it. I did let all of our friends know what he did and he is no longer part of the circle.

[rockrat]

At least you got it back. I have loaned two mould to "friends", a RCBS 35-200 and a lyman 31141. Never got either back. They "swore" they had returned them. Last of my lending moulds

[bumpo628]

Blending (please check my math)
Hardball 2 Sn, 6 Sb, 92 Pb = 10 lbs Shot (assuming 6%) + 3.2 oz tin
Isotope 2.5 Sn, 2.5 Sb, 95 Pb = 5 lb shot + 5lb pure + 4 oz tin
Sam's Choice 1 Sn, 3 Sb, 96 Pb = 6 lb shot + 4 lb pure + 1.6 oz tin (5% Sb in shot)
Matthew

With your recipes, I got:
1. Hardball 2 Sn, 6 Sb, 92 Pb = 10 lbs Shot (assuming 5% Sb) + 3.2 oz tin
= 10 lbs (1.96% Tin, 4.90% Antimony)
2. Isotope 2.5 Sn, 2.5 Sb, 95 Pb = 5 lb shot (assuming 5% Sb)+ 5lb pure + 4 oz tin
= 10 lb (2.44% Tin, 2.44% Antimony)
3. Sam's Choice 1 Sn, 3 Sb, 96 Pb = 6 lb shot (assuming 5% Sb) + 4 lb pure + 1.6 oz tin
= 10 lb (0.99% Tin, 2.97% Antimony)