30-06 Converted Arisaka - No Mum !

[DoctorBill]

Was looking for a 7.7mm Arisaka in decent shape at a Pawn/Gun Shop and
ran into this. (pics below)

It being sold as a 7.7mm and chambered a 7.7mmx58 empty case that I carry in my car.

However, having learned the hard way that many of these rifles have been
converted and not marked as such, I challenged the store owner to try to
chamber an empty 30-06 case. Had to convince him, but he did it.
He wanted me to buy it and THEN chamber cast it ! Lord !

The 30-06 fit perfectly. Had him run Head Space Gauges in it.
Go worked.....No Go didn't go - an unmarked 30-06 converted rifle !

He wanted $114 for it.....couldn't pass it up.

WHAT IS IT ? ! No mum, nor any evidence of a Mum having been ground off !
That is a Bishop Stock ! Is that Ivory on it ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/d0e8ddf48f.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/f9d1692804.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/ccbb069c20.jpg

I have not slugged it yet, so don't know the exact bore size.

What kind of Arisaka would not have ever had a mum ?

Pictures show the Serial number - Series two - 70,848 of 99,000 made
and has a pictograph after the Nagoya Arsenal symbol.
What does that mean ?

No evidence of a Chrysanthemum or it being ground off has me wondering.

A friend says the rear of the receiver may have been set up for a rear
adjustable, folding peep sight. ?????

Will this work with a .308 cast bullet ?

DoctorBill

[Bret4207]

I've seen a few Arisakas that looked like there was never a Chrysanthemum on the recv'r. Maybe there was and someone just did a nice job grinding? Who knows.

The screws are probably for a recv'r sight although that stock doesn't appear to be cut for the slide. A simple alteration to make to fit a Lyman 48. The "ivory" is more likely a nylon or plastic. If it's actually ivory it should yellow over time. You might use your Google-fu to look into how to ID it if it is ivory.

.308 cast through a 7.7 (.311-.314) barrel? Doubtful it would give good accuracy. This is one of those guns that really needs a chamber cast and slugging before venturing too far. Clean the barrel really well and see what you have before investing in dies and moulds. If it is a 7.7-06 then treat it like an 8mm-06 and start low.

[3006guns]

It had a mum......trust me. I have at least two type 99's that were bubba'd back in the fifties and the receiver rings were carefully ground/polished to remove any trace of the mum stamp. To verify, remove the action from the stock and look at the receiver ring. You'll notice it's just slightly out of round because of the polishing.

Dovetail had to be for a receiver sight.

Sure it'll take a .308 bullet.......but not very well. You'd be better off with any bullet made for the .303 British or 7.65 Argentine.

All of the conversions on your rifle were common "way back when" new rifles were in short supply and guys were trying to get anything to shoot. I have a similar gun, but the 30-06 conversion was done by setting the barrel back one thread and rechambering which is far better. Still leaves a rather generous bore though!

You did a good thing by saving this gun. If you look at it someone went to a fair amount of trouble to make it look nice and it deserves a good home.

[DoctorBill]

Slugged the barrel.

0.302 to 0.313 inch.

Rounded off lands - Metford rifling.

This bunch of old cast bullets (0.309) should work fine.
I washed the old, "powdered from age" Lube off with Mineral Spirits and they look
very good now. Mike to 0.309.

http://www.mynetimages.com/03301d0d75.jpg

The yellow-white stuff on the stock has fine cracks running the length of the material.
My wife who is into gems and jewelry thinks it is Ivory and the black
strip between the white and the wood may be Ebony.

http://www.mynetimages.com/d5a14f4814.jpg

The Butt Plate says "Bishop". I wonder what the Stock alone is worth ?

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

http://www.mynetimages.com/9ee7afb283.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/2bc63c5668.jpg

One damned good job of concealing the removal - quite symmetrical.

I cannot see any out of round or sloping or scratches, etc.

Could this have been filled with some weld and polished off ?

If that was done, the guy is an artistic and mechanical genius.

The barrel slugged to .302 to .313.

DoctorBill

[Artful]

I know 7.7 in late war production were produced with steps skipped - no metal butt plate but wood one actually nailed on etc. so it's possible it came thru without a mum. End of war production lacked quality control - so if it is you might want to rockwell test the receiver.

[Reg]

Just to be on the safe side, you might want to run a chamber cast. Have noticed years ago that even with having the barrel set back one turn then rechambering, that a few times the chamber is quite a bit oversize at the rear. Get a piece of brittle brass and you could have problems. Some were not set back at all and they could also have this oversize condition. Not all were oversize and not saying this one is. Just saying a quick check would ease ones mind. Thats a lot of pressure running around right in front of your nose.
Have also seen a few in the past that had no mum and showed no signs of ever having one.
If ever in any doubt it a simple matter for any good gunsmith to put on a new barrel in any caliber you can get to feed through the magazine. They are far more than strong enough for anything you would ever want to shoot through it.
Very classic looking old stock.

:drinks:

[DoctorBill]

The serial number says "Series 2" and 70,848 of 99,000 made in that
series.

The series goes all the way up to Series 12 at Nagoya Arsenal,
then some were made at an unknown time later on.

I doubt that this is one of those "Last Ditch" Arisakas....

I saw one yesterday and it looked like it was made out of junk yard scraps.


"Have also seen a few in the past that had no mum and showed no signs of ever having one."
Holy Mackeral - Reg !

DoctorBill

[Reg]

Artful,
I think the ones you speak of are called " last ditch " versions. Dog butt crude they were to say the least. Most were cast receivers and were never meant for firing with live ammo. This one just dosn't look like one of these as it shows decent machining. Simple to tell though. Pull it out of the wood and look at the bottom of the receiver. If it looks like a casting, it is. If it shows machine marks its a good one.

[smilie=f:

[Bret4207]

Slugged the barrel.

0.302 to 0.313 inch.

Rounded off lands - Metford rifling.

This bunch of old cast bullets (0.309) should work fine.
I washed the old, "powdered from age" Lube off with Mineral Spirits and they look
very good now. Mike to 0.309.

http://www.mynetimages.com/03301d0d75.jpg

The yellow-white stuff on the stock has fine cracks running the length of the material.
My wife who is into gems and jewelry thinks it is Ivory and the black
strip between the white and the wood may be Ebony.

http://www.mynetimages.com/d5a14f4814.jpg

The Butt Plate says "Bishop". I wonder what the Stock alone is worth ?

DoctorBill

Bill, .309 boolits are not going to do well in a .313 barrel. The only way to use then is to either "bump" them in your sizer or paper patch them. .309 down a .313 tube will lead and shoot wild.

I certainly don't want to disagree with your wife, or anyones wife for that matter, but if that butt plate says Bishop I highly doubt it's ivory. More likely it's resin or maybe bone. Bishop stocks were mostly economy jobs to medium quality, although I've seen a few higher grades hunks of Bishop wood through the years. Fajen tended to have the higher quality wood. The stock as is might bring $75.-100.00. Judging from the style I'd put it in the mid-60's which would make it a $10-25.00 stock new.

On the "ivory" - http://reviews.ebay.com/How-to-Identify-Ivory-Bone-and-Resin-Start-Here_W0QQugidZ10000000004233695

http://ivory4u.com/ID/

http://www.ivoryhound.com/articles_testing_for_ivory.htm

[DoctorBill]

I will look into this Ivory thing - my wife is probably wrong.
Having said that...she is usually right ! After all, she picked me !
She could have gotten a man with more money and income,
but never one as sweet as me.....

So you folks think these 309 bullets will not get spun up in this barrel...

Thinking that you may be correct, I figured that it ought to be easy to push
it thru (slug) the barrel.

I proceeded to lube one up and pound it into the receiver end
with a wood dowel and the rest of the way out with a steel rod.
Went fairly easily after the initial forming at the beginning.

http://www.mynetimages.com/4f8677a634.jpg

You really don't think those four lands will grab this bullet and spin it up ?

There would be "blow by", but I ain't out to shoot no Elk - just out to
kill those pesky, iwwitating, wabbit paper taugets with weduced woads.

Ohhh...some of you may be too young to remember Elmer Fudd and his
quest to get that pesky Bugs Bunny.

http://www.mynetimages.com/a7d4a55cdc.jpg

That is a 30-06 Converted Arisaka that Elmer is carrying !

DoctorBill

[skeet1]

I think it will spin it but it will lead like crazy from gas going past the bullet and not be very accurate. Just my guess.

Ken

[DoctorBill]

I feel like I've been stabbed in the Heart !

Decided to take the barrel off the stock to have a look at the white "Ivory Like" material
on the Monte Carlo stock.

I about had a heart attack when I saw this.

What is this ! ? This is not a natural rupture - looks like some Frankenstienian
Metal freakout !

Can anyone tell me what I am looking at here ?

Will this barrel explode if I fire a 30-06 round in it ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/a7ce753814.jpg

Has this barrel been cut and pasted back together with Gorilla Glue ?

I think I need to take some Pepto Bismol......

DoctorBill

[waksupi]

Not sure what it is, but it sure looks scary!

[DoctorBill]

I sent that photo composite to my friend who is a Machinist Genius and he said
all is well.

That is a technique of hot crimping metal barrels together with a hydraulic press while
the metal is red hot and when it cools the joint is essentially as strong as if it were one piece.

The linear marks are either stamping marks or marks left from pulling the
piece out while it is red hot.

And that may have been done even before they cut the bore in the barrel....very tough metal, also.

I had thought that the people/person who had converted it to 30-06 had bastardized the
barrel in some way - cut it or shortened it - whatever.
Aparrently what you see was done when the barrel was being manufactured - he thinks.

Anyway - normal metal forging stuff. I have so much to learn about these MilSurp rifles !
Every day is a new thing.

Perhaps someone reading this with metal working experience can comment further on it.

So it is OK. No worries, as Crocodile Dundee would say.

Had the c**p scared out of me - never saw that sort of thing before.

Ignorance is expensive. You learn more and more and then you die.

What a waste.

Onward.....

DoctorBill

[Reg]

Hate to put the scare back into you but no--- there is no such thing as "hot crimping" any barrel together. He might be refering to using "skelps" and hammer forging a barrel such as was done with the early flintlock barrels but you were only looking at very poor quality black powder at low pressurers. If you were to ever fire that form of barrel with the pressurers generated by the 06 I would for darned sure have my life insurance policy paid up.
What you see might be the remains of the old rear sight sleeve but what someone has done to it is anyones guess.
There also seems to be some "battering" on the bottom of the recoil lug. That also is not normal.
Your rifle has some issues. This really isn't the time for good ol boy guessing but you really need to see someone who is an experianced gunsmith. Do not fire it under any circumstances until it is carefully looked at.
These 7.7 and especially the 6.5 Jap actions are not normally poorly made unless they were origionaly made up as training rifles or the ones known as "last ditch" models. Many of the 6.5's were actually made up in Germany with the best German steel at the time. Other than a funky but usable safety, they can be made up into very nice sporters and are very safe to boot. P O Ackley , in his blow up tests of the late 40's to the early 60's , tried long and hard to blow a few of the things up and when he finially got the job done rather than actually blowing the action itself , he blew the barrel clean out the front , and it took one heck of a overload to do it. Not too shabby.
Life is too short and your vision too precious to take any chances. Get it looked at by a good gunsmith, someone with experiance with rebarreling. If you have a good action and a questionable barrel just get it rebarreled. It really dosn't cost that much and with the nice old Bishop stock you have the basis of a neat old vintage sporter.

:Fire:

[Bret4207]

I have seen other barrels with similar marks. Hard to say without having it in hand, but my impression has always been they are manufacturing marks of some sort. Maybe someone more familiar with Arisakas will chime in. It certainly looks like a sleeved section. I don't have any books on the Arisaka handy to research it further.

[3006guns]

That barrel scares me......and I ain't afraid 'o nothin' !!


I have over 35 Arisakas spanning several models, along with actions, parts, etc. and I've NEVER seen marks like that. The barrels were bored, rifled and finished machined like any other barrel with the exception of the chrome bore on the type 99's. Whatever you do, don't shoot it. A replacement barrel isn't expensive and will change out normally. At that point you have the choice of returning it to its original caliber or setting the barrel back and chambering for something else.

Edit: After looking at the pics again, that may be some sort of jaw mark left by whatever they used if they pulled the barrel. In any case its created a groove or seam running the length of the chamber and I wouldn't trust it. By the way, if you fit a custom barrel the barrel threads are 16.99 tpi but most lathes will cut 17 tpi which is close enough.

[Westwindmike]

Just to be safe, I'd put a couple of hose clamps around that barrel before I shot it. That should hold it together.

[DoctorBill]

A friend of mine looked in a book called "The Bolt Action Rifle" by
a Frank De Haas and said there were photos of this rifle.

It is supposed to be a Training Rifle designed to shoot blanks.....

People have been killed shooting real rounds in them.

I have about had it with Arisakas !

$115 for a piece of dangerous junk !

http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-September00.html Scroll to the Bottom.

http://oldrifles.com/japanese.htm About 3/4 of the way down the page.

My friend who saw this in Frank De Haas' book also saw two 7.7mm Arisaka Barrels
in a barrel in a gun shop. Didn't ask the price.

QUESTIONS:

What would a reasonable price be for a barrel ?
What would a reasonable charge be to take out this "Training" Barrel and install one of those
barrels in the barrel ?

I don't want to get screwed by some gun shop's gunsmith.
Brock's Gun Shop in Spokane, WA on Division Street.

DoctorBill

[swheeler]

A friend of mine looked in a book called "The Bolt Action Rifle" by
a Frank De Haas and said there were photos of this rifle.

It is supposed to be a Training Rifle designed to shoot blanks.....

People have been killed shooting real rounds in them.

I have about had it with Arisakas !

$115 for a piece of dangerous junk !

http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-September00.html Scroll to the Bottom.

http://oldrifles.com/japanese.htm About 3/4 of the way down the page.

My friend who saw this in Frank De Haas' book also saw two 7.7mm Arisaka Barrels
in a barrel in a gun shop. Didn't ask the price.

QUESTIONS:

What would a reasonable price be for a barrel ?
What would a reasonable charge be to take out this "Training" Barrel and install one of those
barrels in the barrel ?

I don't want to get screwed by some gun shop's gunsmith.
Brock's Gun Shop in Spokane, WA on Division Street.

DoctorBill

DB; that could all be true, but looks to me as if the part you are wondering about is a sleeve installed on the barrel, then dovetailed for the buckhorn rear sight. I seriously doubt someone went through that much trouble to fix up a blank firing rifle.

[swheeler]

I can see where the two(sleeve and barrel) come together in the first picture in post#5, bluing color even looks different. Don't you have another sporterized 99 to compare to?

[DoctorBill]

OMG !

swheeler - I should have seen that !

I have a previous Thread about my just acquired 7.7mm converted to 300 Savage
Arisaka from the friend who read the De Haas book.

I immediately took the barrel off and the 7.7mm's sleeve is about 1.25 inches long.
The 30-06's sleeve (all that "thing" on there) is 4.5 inches.
The faint line going around the barrel is 1.25 inches from the receiver !

The barrels are identical except for that portion where the Buckhorn sight is attached !

http://www.mynetimages.com/07d8648a8c.jpg

This rifle barrel has rifling....from what I can read, the "training Rifles" are smooth bores.

The serial number has series two and it is a serial number 70,848 of 99,000 made in that series.
Why would they pop a trainer out of that series ?

I still think I should have a Gunsmith have a look at it - just to be safe, but I think you are right !

DoctorBill

[bhn22]

One last issue. If the barrel hasn't been set back when it was rechambered to 31-06 you may have problems with case head separations. The web area of the 7.7 case is larger in diameter than the 30-06 case is. I used to have a Type 99 and tried sizing down & trimming 30-06 brass for it. The cases would often split on the first firing. You still need to do a chamber cast before firing it. If nothing else, you need to know the dimensions of the case neck are and the throat dimensions. .309 cast bullets will likely lead your barrel from the first shot, from the information you've provided so far.

[Reg]

I agree with swheeler, I think it's a sleeve . Something someone came up with to mount the rear sight on or whats left of the old rear sight sleeve that was hacked up to make a mount for the rear sight. I never saw one of the trainers that was rifled. From the slug from your barrel it is rifled but does appear to be on the rough side. Also its very doubtful that anyone would go to any expense to doll up a trainer. Even after the war when a lot of the Arisakas showed up, they knew what a trainer or last ditch was and they were looked down upon.
The bottom of your receiver is banged up a bit but it just dosn't look like a cheap casting and thats what the junkers were.
I still say, you need a qualified gunsmith to look it over. I think you are OK but you need to have someone check it out, someone you can trust. Anyone in the business who is worth a d#(%$ won't charge you anything for this quick check. If they do, it tells you a lot about them and the business they run.
A good source for a barrel is one of the Adams and Bennet ( mispelled ) barrels sold by Midway.
I just buy what comes close and fit it up from there. Last one I did was a 35 Whelen for a 98 Mauser and refitted it to a 91 Mauser in 35 Remington. Worked fine.
Fitting for your Jap is standard procedure and shouldn't take more than 2 and 1/2 to 3 hours max. You will need to blue and remount open sights if you still want to use them.
Yes, you are going to have a couple of bux involved. Any one in business must make a profit or they soon are no longer in business.

:coffeecom

[swheeler]

OMG !

swheeler - I should have seen that !

I have a previous Thread about my just acquired 6.5mm converted to 300 Savage
Arisaka from the friend who read the De Haas book.

I immediately took the barrel off and the 6.5mm's sleeve is about 1.25 inches long.
The 7.7mm's sleeve (all that "thing" on there) is 4.5 inches.
The faint line going around the barrel is 1.25 inches from the receiver !

The barrels are identical except for that portion where the Buckhorn sight is attached !

http://www.mynetimages.com/e207c15981.jpg

This rifle barrel has rifling....from what I can read, the "training Rifles" are smooth bores.

The serial number has series two and it is a serial number 70,848 of 99,000 made in that series.
Why would they pop a trainer out of that series ?

I still think I should have a Gunsmith have a look at it - just to be safe, but I think you are right !

DoctorBill

I still see mausers done the same way every now and again, couple Swedes at last gunshow I attended. The tip and cap look like the old Bishop wannabe ivory, plastic. Heres what I would do, remove the stock, take a needle and heat it to red hot then burn it into the FE tip under the barrel channel, smell burning plastic? Hornady makes .312" dia. bullets for it, 125,150 and 170 IIRC. Take a "picture" of the throat/pound slug, use a boolit that fills it up, would think 314-299 or Lee 312-185 should be a good fit. Looks to me as if you got some oldtime hunters favorite deer masher there, do him proud and go kill something!

[DoctorBill]

Cerro-Safe Chamber Cast....

http://www.mynetimages.com/b9ee6102e5.jpg

Ya...it's a 30-06 for sure.

Wonder if I should anneal the Brass down by the base -
gonna expand a lot !

DoctorBill

[swheeler]

Ya...it's a 30-06 for sure.

Wonder if I should anneal the Brass down by the base -
gonna expand a lot !

NO, never anneal the web area, that could be very dangerous Bill. I would instead wrap the web area of the case with scotch tape or masking tape to take up some of the .016" windage. A single wrap of masking tape, with ends butted not lapped, should leave .003" clearance per side. The tape will hold the brass centered in the chamber to fireform concentric, remove the tape after, neck size and load as normal, low pressure cast loads should give acceptable case life.

[Phat Man Mike]

I've always heard never anneal below the shoulder! it makes the brass too malleable and you don't need that!

[PAT303]

All I see is a bloke trying to hurt himself over a $100.Sorry Bill but either rebarrel that ''thing'' and do it properly or cut it up and write off the money.It's not worth it mate. Pat

[ubetcha]

DB try going to the milsurp web site.The is a lot of info on this stuff there and may find some answers too

[DoctorBill]

Pat303 down under..... I am now thoroughly convinced that this is a good
solid 7.7 Arisaka that has been converted to 30-06.

http://www.mynetimages.com/d0e8ddf48f.jpg

There is nothing wrong with this rifle - I did a Chamber Cast and it is a
true 30-06 conversion.

The last Jap symbol on the right side of the Serial Number is a Quality
Control acceptance symbol of the Nagoya Arsenal.
"The marking is the Department of Control (Chief Inspector) of Nagoya Arsenal"

I am not at all concerned about it being dangerous in any way - no worries!

Whoever worked on this rifle was a damned good machinist.

Bill in Eastern Washington State, USA.

[HangFireW8]

There is nothing wrong with this rifle - I did a Chamber Cast and it is a true 30-06 conversion.

While I have no problems with the workmanship, that chamber shape gives me great pause. Like all such conversions where the barrel was not set back, you've got an awful lot of clearance around the case head. This is the worst place for it, as some of the case head is always unsupported, and here, the rest is hardly so (in your case). A case rupture here is the worst case scenario for any bolt action rifle. 50K PSI will dynamically disassemble the rifle, such as blow out the magazine and contents, blow off the extractor, etc.

Ideally I would find a larger cartridge brass and swage it down to .475", and reload it with a '06 neck sizer.

As swheeler said, NEVER anneal this area of the brass.

If you feel you must go with '06 brass, get yourself some good, thick military like Lake City, and I don't mean the imported stuff that stole the name.

-HF

[DoctorBill]

Well....now YOU have me worried, HangFireW8 !

BTW - I intend to shoot CAST bullets with reduced loads anyway.
My shoulder is 68 years old (my brain is 98) and doesn't like even factory loads !

"Ideally I would find a larger cartridge brass and swage it down to .475",
and reload it with a '06 neck sizer."

Like what Brass would I use to do that ? A friend just now suggested 8mm maybe...
I have Brass and rifle specs flying around in my brain like a swatted wasp's nest right now !

Anyone reading this thread who has a 30-06 converted 7.7mm Arisaka -
tell us how yours works !

I need to hear if I should worry or not.

All of these thousands of conversions to 30-06 should have the same problem - if it exists at all !

Chime in guys !

A worried DoctorBill

PS - What is next ! ? Give me a break !

[broomhandle]

Hi Doctor Bill,

I am a retired tool & die maker, If there are three marks on the barrel it might be jaw marks every 120 degrees from the lathe work to rechamber the barrel.
It does look sleeved in some manner.

I have heard of some rifles that were drilled into the chamber to make a dummy rifle. The bad thing is some people never saw the holes!
Look at the chamber do you seen any sign of threaded inserts in the barrel! I too would replace the barrel or return it to the dealer. Sadly, it can be a danger!

Best, point6

[DoctorBill]

Broomhandle - go back to
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1183972&postcount=13

You will see that someone has made a sleeve to fit over the barrel just in front
of the normal barrel sleeve. It is 7.9 cm long from the back seam to
the front where it tapers to the barrel. Blued a different color.

My machinist friend says that that was a sleeve (very well made too) that was
hydraulically crimped (he named the crimper ?) onto the barrel so that a Buckhorn Sight
could be attached to this Arisaka.

You can see the seam where the barrel Sleeve meets this added sleeve.
He says those are crimp marks running lengthwise.

Other than that extra sleeve, this Arisaka has everything that a 7.7mm
Arisaka should have including the Nagoya Inspector's mark.

Series 2 - Nagoya Arsenal. Good workmanship.

Does that assuage you ?

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Is this what you mean by Masking Tape ?

If so, I cannot get this to go - the bolt won't close on it !

Too tight ! You can see the pressure marks on the tape.

The tape is not overlapping - just butted together.
0.478 right at the base.

http://www.mynetimages.com/d0522d5a28.jpg

That is the same 30-06 Brass case in the pictures and the one
I've been miking.

I'll try scotch tape now - just to see what happens....closes !
0.473 right at the base.

Maybe this chamber is not as loose as I thought !

I sure am learning a lot by doing all this.....
Almost Midnight here - going to hit the sack now !

DoctorBill

[RKJ]

Bill & guys, I don't have any idea about the worthiness of the rifle or really have any interest in Milsurps (well, I wouldn't mind having a 98...) but I've been following your progress with this rifle and I find it very interesting. There is an awful lot of good knowledge here. I'm looking forward to more about this.

[PAT303]

Bill,Hatchers notebook has been mentioned already and if you read it Hatcher clearly states that 7.7 Arisaka's should not be fired if the barrel hasn't been set back in rechambering to '06.Scotch tape is what you should use on the case but seriously mate I would tread carefully,people on here are warning you for good reason. Pat

[Multigunner]

A friend of mine looked in a book called "The Bolt Action Rifle" by
a Frank De Haas and said there were photos of this rifle.

It is supposed to be a Training Rifle designed to shoot blanks.....

People have been killed shooting real rounds in them.

I have about had it with Arisakas !

$115 for a piece of dangerous junk !

http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-September00.html Scroll to the Bottom.

http://oldrifles.com/japanese.htm About 3/4 of the way down the page.

My friend who saw this in Frank De Haas' book also saw two 7.7mm Arisaka Barrels
in a barrel in a gun shop. Didn't ask the price.

QUESTIONS:

What would a reasonable price be for a barrel ?
What would a reasonable charge be to take out this "Training" Barrel and install one of those
barrels in the barrel ?

I don't want to get screwed by some gun shop's gunsmith.
Brock's Gun Shop in Spokane, WA on Division Street.

DoctorBill

We have a Jap training rifle in the family. It was mine but I gave it to my brother many years ago.
As far as I can tell the training rifles did not have rifled bores. Besides blanks they were used to fire aerodynamically stabilized projectiles that required no rifling.
The two piece barrel of our trainer does not look like yours. The cut off stub of a discarded barrel was threaded and spliced to a slim length of smooth bored tubing without copying the profile of a normal barrel.

Australian gunsmiths often spliced barrels to get around not having a source for proper barrels in sporting calibers threaded for surplus actions.

The barrel of your rifle may have been spliced, if so it may have a .308 bore rather than a 7.7 bore.
A British company used this method to convert 6.5 Carcano rifles to .308, and it seems these held up well.
The British also tried out spliced barrels for the No.4 rifle but these did not work out quite so well.

[HangFireW8]

I'll try scotch tape now - just to see what happens....closes !
0.473 right at the base

Try each tape at half height- cut off the tape on the upper half.

If it were mine, I might shoot it with military brass, but just stay under 40,000 PSI.

-HF

[broomhandle]

Hi Doc,

Good luck in any event!
The correct bullet will always be a better pick for accurace.

A pal of mine has a 7.7 rechambered to 30-06 . I have to look at it again!
A well know gunsmith in this area did it over 30 years ago.

Best,
broomhandle

[swheeler]

Doc; You can bungy the rifle to the spare tire of your vehicle, tie a string to the trigger and fire it remote. Then you will have some brass to examine, try 4 or five with the scotch tape and a couple without the tape, you'll be able to see how your tape job lets the brass expand evenly. I'm betting the Swede chambers are this large or larger and many on here use 06 brass to form for it with the tape trick.

[DoctorBill]

Multigunner - Can you take some photos of that "Spliced Together" trainer's action
with the stock removed ?

Up close and varied views ?

Or do you know any Internet links showing what that "Splice" looked like ?

It would help many people to see these spliced barrels up close !

I would love to see (in detail) what you describe !
"Australian gunsmiths often spliced barrels to get around not having
a source for proper barrels in sporting calibers threaded for surplus actions."

Fascinating !

DoctorBill

[Larry Gibson]

Were the rifle mine, I would try to find some LC Match cases that were sold a few years back unfired with deactivated primers (LC 62 I believe). They were softer cases, especiall in the web area and fireformed to 6.5 Swede real well for me. I would wrap a thin strip of cellephane tape around the case head to keep it centered when chambered. I would use a medium stout load of 4895 under a .312 jacketed bullet to fire form the cases. Once fire formed I would then just NS the cases only for future loading with cast bullets. At cast bullet psi's and NSing only there should be no worry about case head seperation. That's what I would do if the rifle were mine.

Larry Gibson

[wiljen]

The cases sold a few years back were LC 68 Match and LC 69 (non-match) as I bought some of both. Wideners, GI Brass, and probably a few others had them.

[Larry Gibson]

The cases sold a few years back were LC 68 Match and LC 69 (non-match) as I bought some of both. Wideners, GI Brass, and probably a few others had them.

My records show I'm using LC '62, 67 and 68 match cases, just couldn't remember which. I researched my data and wiljen is correct, it is the LC68 match cases I am referring to and would use if I could find some. If not I would try some Remington new cases. The key being to fire form them and then just NS with the die body not touching the case sides at all. Since I already have one, I would use a Redding bushing die and a bushing to get .002" neck tension on the diameter bullet used. Cases should last a long, long time that way. Thanks for the input wiljen.

Larry Gibson

[edsmith]

if it was me and it ain't, I would tie it down,shove a proof round into it,pull the string,and when the dust had cleared and the gun was still there, it is good to go, if it ain't there it won't ever hurt anybody. :)

[Trifocals]

Whoa!!! Slow up a bit guys. First off it is a well known fact that many 7.7 Jap rifles simply had an '06 reamer ran into the chamber so that '06 ammo could be used. The dimensions of the original chamber were oversize for the '06 cartridge. If the job were done correctly, the barrel should have been set back 1 or 2 threads before the chamber was reamed. Only a good chamber cast will disclose the true chamber dimensions. I would not even attempt to fire an '06 round in the rifle till the actual chamber dimensions are known. A case rupture in an oversize chamber could produce results similar to a grenade. There is absolutely no sense in taking a chance of injury, death or ruining a good rifle action when it could be avoided with a simple chamber cast. If the chamber is oversize, setting the existing barrel back a thread or two and re-chambering may be cheaper than a new barrel. The 7.7 Jap barrels were usually chrome lined and good quality. You should also consider having the barrel, action and bolt Magna-fluxed and industrial X-rayed to reveal any cracks or defects. This is darn cheap insurance. Disregarding the funky safety, the Jap rifles for the most part were very strong and when sporterized by a COMPETENT gunsmith can be very decent. LOL

[DoctorBill]

"You should also consider having the barrel, action and bolt Magna-fluxed and industrial X-rayed
to reveal any cracks or defects."

Right....(lol also)

Maybe I should have Spiderman check it out, too. lol

Trifocals - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1187671&postcount=27
This was done three days ago....

DoctorBill
NRA Life Member

[3006guns]

I'm not sure why this is causing such a fuss. First of all, the only "trainers" I've seen were all type 38's in 6.5mm and are easy to spot. It's possible that type 99 trainers were made, but they'd be few and far between as the gun was accepted for service in 1939 and put into immediate production. However, NO training gun would ever have the "type" on the receiver...or a serial number....or an arsenal mark... as it was not considered a firearm. This holds true for every one I've seen, including the two trainers in my collection.

I've picked up good, serviceable 7.7 mm barrels, some with receivers, for as little as five bucks at gun shows. Most people still pass them by, looking for some precious Winchester stuff. Find a good one and decide if you want a 30-06 or a 7.7mm.......brass available for both. If you go with the 30-06, have the barrel shoulder and face turned down to allow it to thread in one more turn and rechamber. That's it.

There's one more possiblity......have the shoulder and face turned down then insert a 7.65 Mauser (Argentine, Belgian,etc.) cartridge in there. You'll find it's a perfect fit and the right size bullet to boot.....plus you have a chrome bore! I have such a rifle, set in a good stock and it's lethal at any decent range.

[DoctorBill]

You know, 3006guns, neither do I !

This is not a training rifle.

Why some think that it is particularly dangerous is weird.

I showed a Chamber Cast !

It is from Series two made at Nagoya Arsenal.

It even has an arsenal Inspector's Stamp !

It is one of thousands re-chambered to 30-06.

Why would THIS ONE be particularly dangerous to shoot ?

I am no longer worried about shooting it.

The first several rounds shot, however, will be with a large cloth over the receiver
as I have done with ALL my newly obtained MilSurp Rifles - just to make sure...

...and I shoot reduced loads with Cast Bullets.

Not like some guys at the range who shoot wildly hot loads to show everyone
how large their gonads are. Often you can feel the shock waves hit your body !

Someone put a lot of work into it and shot it...it is still here !

Why was it sold ? Why are the Gun Shops full of old, used guns...?
Thousands of reasons.

My biggest problem right now is the weather !
Constant rain and melting snow. The range is a swamp of mud and streams of runoff.
Spring is here and usually a lot of rain in Eastern Washington State.

Here is the local "Chocolate Pudding Soil" - when wet - cannot be walked on or you sink.
It is raining in this photo out my kitchen window.
http://www.mynetimages.com/a3cf29a397.jpg

DoctorBill

[Larry Gibson]

I'm with you Doc, I also think it's a "shooter". Shouldn't be hard to come up with decent cases for it as I mentioned in my previous post. The rifle no doubt has been used in the past. Who would go to all that effort and then not shoot it? Probably used '06 or loads with .311/.312 bullets. This was common in the 7.7 Jap and 7.65 Argentines rechambered to '06 cases 30-40 years back. No problem then, shouldn't be a problem now. Just my opinion as I've a 6.5 Jap I cleaned the chamber up with using a 6.5 Swede reamer and short chambering it so .308W case are used. I've also used numerous of the '09 Argentines recambered to take '06 cases with no problems. Go for it and keep us posted on how she does.

Larry Gibson

[HangFireW8]

Only a good chamber cast will disclose the true chamber dimensions.

You mean like this?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1187671&postcount=27

[HangFireW8]

Why was it sold ? Why are the Gun Shops full of old, used guns...?
Thousands of reasons

Yup. I've found plenty of used guns with messed-up crowns, loose scope mounts, bad bedding. I buy based on bore condition and headspace.

In this case, someone trying to use .308" bullets in a .311/.312" bore would be a likely reason. There is a fair chance the original owner is retired or even dead, another reason. I picked up my Springfield that way; old guy selling it for his friend's widow. (Yes, I paid a fair price for it.)

For $110 there's a good chance it will make a fine cast boolit slinger.

-HF

[Dutchman]

Left is .30-06. Right is 7.7x58 Arisaka (one of mine). Center is 7.7x58 Norma fired in a .30-06 chambered Arisaka. FYI.

http://images25.fotki.com/v903/photos/2/28344/157842/ari1-vi.jpg

[edlmann]

I have a similar gun, but the 30-06 conversion was done by setting the barrel back one thread and rechambering which is far better. Still leaves a rather generous bore though!

This is how they should have been done - but it's not always the case. Chamber case should tell the tale.

[DoctorBill]

Dutchman - So if I reload my new 7.7mmx58 Prvi Partizan cases, which I have
100 of, with .311 Cast bullets and fire them in this re-chambered to 30-06 Arisaka rifle,
the brass will fire form to fit the 30-06 chamber, but have the proper 7.7mm Arisaka base ?

Won't have much of a neck left, though....

I just want to make sure I understand you correctly - no mistakes.

That 7.7mmx58 of your loading - what is the horizontal mark just up from the bottom ?

Looks funny....bulging out slightly or is that an optical delusion ?

What size bullet have you got in there ? What powder and load ?

Prvi Partizan comes having been annealed - at least by appearance.
Should I anneal it for sure just to allow the neck to reform more easily ?

DoctorBill

[Dutchman]

Dutchman - So if I reload my new 7.7mmx58 Prvi Partizan cases, which I have
100 of, with .311 Cast bullets and fire them in this re-chambered to 30-06 Arisaka rifle,
the brass will fire form to fit the 30-06 chamber, but have the proper 7.7mm Arisaka base ?

Fire forming affects mostly the upper portion of the case. You don't fire form the case head.

Let me clarify that. The web of the cartridge case is the solid portion just above the rim. Above the web are the case walls that go up to the shoulder and then the neck. It is the case walls that expand, obturate, to form to the chamber. This will leave a bulge around the case just above the web. The web itself may change dimensionally .001" or so but you don't want so much pressure that the web, the solid brass part of the case, to expand under pressure as it will unduly stress the integrity of the case.

As an extension of this situation, in fire forming an undersize cartridge in an oversize chamber may result in case head separation as the threshold of physics is crossed. The case walls just above the solid portion of the case can expand only so much before the brass case walls break away.

What you watch out for is incipient case head separation:

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&gbv=2&tbs=isch:1&sa=X&ei=EFR5TduSIoassAPj_eCKAw&ved=0CDQQvwUoAQ&q=incipient+case+head+separation&spell=1&biw=1120&bih=524



That 7.7mmx58 of your loading - what is the horizontal mark just up from the bottom ?

My particular Type 99 has a large chamber. So large that when I fired Norma factory full power 7.7x58 in it the cases were so swelled it was nearly impossible to size them in Lee dies using a compound leverage press. When I did manage to size the 20 cases I determined that the prudent thing to do was load only with moderate cast bullet loads to preserve not only the expensive brass but in the interest of safety to minimize case stretching altogether. Those cases fired with moderate cast bullet loads did not expand (obturate) to the degree that I thought unsafe.



Looks funny....bulging out slightly or is that an optical delusion ?

Welcome to the world of the Type 99 Arisaka.


What size bullet have you got in there ? What powder and load ?

314299 sized .312" using 12 grs Unique. My Type 99 is a late war but not last ditch. The bore is not chrome plated but the rifling is standard Metford-type Arisaka rifling. It shot pretty darn good with this load. With the original Norma factory j-type load it also shot surprisingly accurate, so much so that I deemed it worthy of some additional load development with cast bullets.

You can use this same exact load and cast bullet in your converted Type 99. You should have a .311" expander in your die set or use a Lyman M die .31 to expand the neck. Some of these Type 99 may prefer 314299 sized .314".



Prvi Partizan comes having been annealed - at least by appearance.
Should I anneal it for sure just to allow the neck to reform more easily ?

I'd fire them first and inspect for case neck obturation. If there is black soot around the neck and shoulder of the case then you can either up the charge slightly or anneal the necks. At any rate when working up loads like this you can utilize neck soot as an indicator of load strength. You may ignore neck soot if it doesn't bother you. With some rifles you get a wee little back puff of gas if the case doesn't obturate enough to seal the chamber. It's not a fatal condition.

I didn't read every single message in this thread so I don't know if any of this was covered already. I'm just trying to answer your questions.

Also: you shouldn't use Privi 7.7x58 cases in a .30-06 chamber. Use .30-06 cases. The 7.7x58 cases are too short. The photo I posted showed a MISTAKE someone made putting 7.7x58 ammo into a rechambered Arisaka .30-06. They didn't know it had been rechambered. I didn't make that clear, sorry. Fortunately, that situation isn't fatal.

Dutch

[Artful]

While 7.7 cases can be made from .30-'06 cases, but the base diameter is a bit too small.
So while you will have a bit it expansion with 30'06 cases but with cast loads should be safe.
This usually gives no problem, but repeated full length resizing will weaken the case, so neck sizing only is the best practice. Lots and Lots of these rifles were found, modified and used back in the 60's.

If you really want to get an exact fit you can take a larger base brass and swage it down to be what you want but I hardly think it's worth it. I don't remember exactly what I was making but was taking the belt off 300 H&H bases for a project for someone's toy - so I know it can be done just don't like to do it.

Here's some links that might interest you
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/srtype99/index.asp
http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-186695.html
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?183061-7.7-Japanese-hot-face-treatment
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-60937.html

[Sasquatch]

Hate to put the scare back into you but no--- there is no such thing as "hot crimping" any barrel together. He might be refering to using "skelps" and hammer forging a barrel such as was done with the early flintlock barrels but you were only looking at very poor quality black powder at low pressurers. If you were to ever fire that form of barrel with the pressurers generated by the 06 I would for darned sure have my life insurance policy paid up.
What you see might be the remains of the old rear sight sleeve but what someone has done to it is anyones guess.
There also seems to be some "battering" on the bottom of the recoil lug. That also is not normal.
Your rifle has some issues. This really isn't the time for good ol boy guessing but you really need to see someone who is an experianced gunsmith. Do not fire it under any circumstances until it is carefully looked at.
These 7.7 and especially the 6.5 Jap actions are not normally poorly made unless they were origionaly made up as training rifles or the ones known as "last ditch" models. Many of the 6.5's were actually made up in Germany with the best German steel at the time. Other than a funky but usable safety, they can be made up into very nice sporters and are very safe to boot. P O Ackley , in his blow up tests of the late 40's to the early 60's , tried long and hard to blow a few of the things up and when he finially got the job done rather than actually blowing the action itself , he blew the barrel clean out the front , and it took one heck of a overload to do it. Not too shabby.
Life is too short and your vision too precious to take any chances. Get it looked at by a good gunsmith, someone with experiance with rebarreling. If you have a good action and a questionable barrel just get it rebarreled. It really dosn't cost that much and with the nice old Bishop stock you have the basis of a neat old vintage sporter.

:Fire:

I think you are talking about forge welding. It works by heating the steel up to a hair over 2200 farenheit (WHITE hot, almost melting. it should spark and begin to burn) and tapping them toghther. If its done right, darn right its strong. Its how anchor chains used to be made and you may have driven a car where parts were essentially forge welded toghther (technically friction welded, but they work similarly from my understanding). but i personally would NOT use that barrel. if it was a forge weld you would really have to look for a seam and it would be far shallower. I may not know guns, but I know my forge welds. If thats a forge weld its sure one crappy one.


EDIT: If that is a crimed on sleeve or whatever, I can't say anything with authority on it. If it were mine id strap it to something pull the trigger with a LONG string and go from there.

[DoctorBill]

Dutchman - Thank you very much for the suggestion and explanations !

BTW - Do you think that "Trail Boss" might be a good powder for a reduced
recoil load in this case. I have used it in a 6.5mm Carcano and like it (Used the Cruise Missile).

DoctorBill

Sasquatch - I am no longer worried about this rifle...someone squeezed a sleeve
over the barrel to mount a Buckhorn sight. No worries. I will fire it with an old rug
over the receiver and then move on if it does not blow up.

I think we have beaten this horse to death !.

This is not an OSHA issue !

[HangFireW8]

Dutchman - what do you think of using 8mmx56 Mauser Brass and fire
forming those in the 30-06 converted Arisaka ?

The base of 8mm Brass is almost identical to that of the 7.7mmx58,
however the case is shorter than 30-06.

I'm not Dutchman, but the 8mm brass and cartridge diagrams I have are no different from .30-06 in the head dimensions.

I'm not too keen on the very short neck you'd end up with, either.

-HF

[DoctorBill]

HangFireW8 - yes - you are right. I just had a friend call me telling me
that his 8mm brass had the same head dimensions as the 7.7mm.

I wonder what head he was measuring.....I just measured them and you
are right. I didn't pull out my books to check him first before posting.

I went back and edited out my dumb question....hope the Dutchman hasn't seen
it yet !

Too many people talking too much and too fast !

This is approaching trying to discuss something in the middle of a riot.

I have to back off and consider these things a bit slower without all of the 'opinions'
swimming around in my skull.

Sorry for the screw up folks - I should have checked it before believing it.

Too many MilSurps with too many variations on a theme for me to keep straight !

Not only is there the caliber, but each rifle has its own bore variations.

Easy to screw something up !

DoctorBill

[Bret4207]

HangFireW8 - yes - you are right. I just had a friend call me telling me
that his 8mm brass had the same head dimensions as the 7.7mm.

I wonder what head he was measuring.....I just measured them and you
are right. I didn't pull out my books to check him first before posting.

I went back and edited out my dumb question....hope the Dutchman hasn't seen
it yet !

Too many people talking too much and too fast !

This is approaching trying to discuss something in the middle of a riot.

I have to back off and consider these things a bit slower without all of the 'opinions'
swimming around in my skull.

Sorry for the screw up folks - I should have checked it before believing it.

Too many MilSurps with too many variations on a theme for me to keep straight !

Not only is there the caliber, but each rifle has its own bore variations.

Easy to screw something up !

DoctorBill

I was trying to find a nice way of recommending that. Things were going a bit too fast there for a while.

[DoctorBill]

Latest update on things I have been learning about this 30-06 converted
7.7mm Arisaka.

I found that Weaver 54 will work for the back receiver rail and the Weaver 46 will work as the front receiver rail, so's I can
mount a scope on it. (Can't see for sour owl's milk!)

Same height and curvature.
This proved very useful ! From Brownell's web site....
http://www.mynetimages.com/0d2062475f.jpg

I have decided to reload 30-06 Brass and use that versus reforming 7.7mm Jap
Brass because of the base being larger and fitting better.

I'll use the masking tape trick to allow the base to expand slowly.

I have taken some of the advice given here and am using the LEE decapper/expander
from my .303 British Dies in the LEE 8mm Mauser Die to expand the
30-06 neck out to 0.311 so that I can use some LEE molded 185 gr 0.312
Cast Bullets (Gas checked) in the reloads.

I will use Trail Boss to make the reloads kick my poor old shoulder less...

This conversion stuff is a big PITA to have to work with !

DoctorBill

[HangFireW8]

This conversion stuff is a big PITA to have to work with !

DoctorBill

Work out the conversion stuff with a small batch. Make sure you are getting it right.

Then, do a very big batch, and you'll be done with it for good.

-HF

[Sanchez]

..... "last ditch" versions These are fully functional, issued weapons.


"Most were cast receivers and were never meant for firing with live ammo": Cast receiver=smoothbored training rifle only, designed ONLY FOR BLANKS. These have altogether different markings & features from rifled Arisakas