454424's in a 1911

[Potsy]

I'm sure this has been gone over before but I couldn't find it.
I've got a Kimber Elclipse Target II and have the urge to run Lyman 454424's (WW alloy, 260grn., sized .452) out of it.
Was planning on 4.5grn. H-Universal and taper cripming on the front driving band.
Figuring on looking for 700-750fps over the chrony.
Does my plan sound pretty close to right? Anybody have much luck with it?

Thanks!!

[35remington]

Sometime, just sometimes, it's best to lie down when you get an "urge" and let it pass.

Have I done something similar?

Yep.

Can't recommend it for any serious use.

Reasons why:

The 1911 likes its bullets to have a rounded ogive so it glances off the frame ramp, misses the barrel ramp and, depending upon the length of the bullet, sometimes the ogive interacts with the top of the chamber. A rounded ogive forms a better "pivot point", so to speak.

A flatnosed, blunt bullet (454424) with a point broader and further forward, widthwise, than the roundnose the gun was intended to run with has a couple of locations it wants to jam, firstly, the frame ramp. Secondly, the chamber "roof."

The bullet seats quite a lot deeper than a standard 230 RN, raising pressures quite a bit, and given that the bullet tends to "kachunky" feeding, bullet setback in addition to the deep seating is quite likely.

This is not at all good.

Here's what I suggest:

First, lie down till the urge passes.

Secondly, if that or running around the block doesn't work, seat a few dummy rounds to your proposed OAL, and load a magazine of your choice so the top round is your 454424 seated as your prefer it. Make sure the magazine is fully loaded, seven or eight rounds or whatever it holds. They don't all have to be the 454424, just the one on top.

Now, from a locked back slide position, drop the slide on the dummy round from slidelock, using the full impulse of the slide. Don't ride it down. Let the gun slam it home.

Now, withdraw the round. Measure the setback of the cartridge, if any. Look for any flat spots that indicate that it was snagging and bumping on the way into the chamber.

Reason I suggest the top round in a full magazine from slidelock is that this round has the greatest tendency to nosedive of all the rounds present in the magazine, and the most angled path to the chamber. This round usually suffers the most setback. A few subsequent rounds loaded as dummies won't do anything but confirm the wisdom of what you're trying.

Make sure case tension is adequate, because if you get a deep seated round from feeding, your case head blowing pressures aren't far away.

Despite what Taffin, et. al claim to do in print sometimes, truthfully, there are easier ways around the block than this, and reliability is found with shapes more suited to the 1911's preferences.

The deep seating and blunt shape of the bullet with the large meplat well forward on the bullet (even more so than the 452423, which is lighter) are a big, big downside. Hope your magazines are suitable as well.....earlier release points tend to do better with blunter bullets.

But the bullet is really not suited for a 1911, despite what some claim to do with it. I certainly wouldn't rely on it for anything but fun shooting, and nothing but light charges of powder should be used, even if your gun and magazine combo feeds it most of the time without too much setback.

[44MAG#1]

You shouldn't have any trouble with it. Speer has listed for the 260 gr JHP 6.3 gr Unique for over 800 fps.
As long as the 454424 doesn't seat any deeper in the case than the Speer 260 gr JHP you will be okay with starting at 5.4 gr of Unique and edging up a couple tenths at a time for functioning. I have a 22 pound spring in my Springfield to keep the slide velocity more friendly with the frame. I would shoot for 800 to maybe 820 in velocity over a chronograph not guessed. Guessing is at best sometimes iffy.

[NHlever]

Sometimes, like mountain climbing, the urge to do something like this "because it is there" can be pretty strong. I'm with 35 Remington on this one though. I have tried it, and it does work, but there really is no point, and it can be hard on the gun. My Ruger Blackhawk is actually a lighter gun by a few ounces, and will handle any .45 Colt load I desire to shoot out of a gun that light without issues. Though the loads I use in it are pretty modest, they still out perform anyting I could do with my 1911, and the Ruger handles them with a yawn.

[44MAG#1]

Don't let anyone discourage you. I am going to experiment with a 253 gr bullet in my 1911. But as I said I have a 22 pound spring in mine.
Why anyone thinks there is not a point in it is beyond me. Just wanting to is the point.
Buffalo Bore has out a +P load with a 255 gr bullet. I have the same bullet . I am sure I won't be able to duplicate BB's load but should come close.
Just don't let the slide velocity cause battering of the frame. A new spring from Wolff is pretty cheap.
As with any loading experience just be careful. Universal, Unique, Herco, Power Pistol and 2400 or AA#9 will be alright. With a heavy I wouldn't use Bullseye or any "fast" powder just because of the much more rapid steep pressure climb. "Slower" powder will be more gentle in opinion; ONLY my opinion as I am sure there will be others that will refute my statement.

[theperfessor]

I haven't tried the Lyman bullet but I have used the RCBS 45-250-RFN in a 1911. It looks similar to the 454190 but has a small 45* shoulder where the nose and body join. It fed fine and shot OK but I never tried to push it very hard in that platform. It is nice in an AR case in my 625.

[bobthenailer]

If your looking for a flat nose bullet for the 45 acp ? that feeds in almost every 1911 it was tried in ! Try the saeco #058 a 215 gr swc bb it is made expressely for bowling pin shooting in the 45 acp.
Between my brother in law and myself we have fired over 15,000 of the ,058 over the years.
If intrested in trying some ? please leave a PM

[tek4260]

I am also interested in this. There is a thread over on singleactions.com where a guy is getting 1k with 265's from his Glock and a Kimber. I think the main mods were a heavy mainspring and a flat bottom firing pin stop. I was looking for a use for the 255 RNFP Lee that I bought when I first started casting. I found a load for the 260 in the ACP in an old P.O. Ackley book I have.

Like others here, the main thing they are afraid of is the case head blowing. I believe they also were using 45 Super brass.

It would be nice to take a deer with my ol Series 70. At 1k/fps, it should work

[35remington]

The very first thing someone should say about a very deeply seated, very blunt bullet in the very short, limited capacity 45 ACP case that has little case head support is some kind of words of discouragement!

I would be remiss in failing to do so.

Very little data exists, and the myriad variations of 454424's found over the years, combined with trying to translate data for completely dissimilar jacketed bullets to this bullet necessitates caution.

That, and the fact that several different magazine styles exist, with radically different methods of feeding, and many different makers of 1911's mean that no one can say exactly how it will work in your gun. Only you can determine this, and take no one's word that it will work "just fine."

I'm not going to guarantee that. I have way too much experience with 1911's to promise that across the board.

Also, look again at the broad flat point of the bullet. A good design for glancing off frame ramps it is not. A smooth feeding bullet in all instances it is not.

Don't just "load 'er up" and have at it. Do your homework first. Check for setback in your gun with dummy rounds, and investigate setback with live firing before deciding even reduced loads are safe.

A deeply seated, 255 SWC at 1000 fps in a 45 ACPjust ain't very smart. We're well past Plus P here. A little setback and it's blowout time.

Those that think a heavier spring "protects" the 1911 with heavier loads have some realities coming in their future they may not like. Less speed backwards unfortunately translates into more speed forwards, and the barrel lug feet don't react well to that.

[Dale53]

I'm with 35remington on this one. I cracked a slide on a .45 ACP and was extremely lucky that my local pistolsmith had a surplus Colt Series 70 Slide at a VERY attractive price that reduced the psychic pain from this failure. My slide failure was diagnosed on using data for same weight bullet (but seated deeper) coupled with a "sagged" spring). I don't even want to contemplate using a 260 gr bullet with no real pressure data.

I use an NOE Clone of the Lyman 454424 on occasion in my 625 Smith. However, it is crimped in the normal crimp groove (this won't be possible in the 1911 and will necessitate deeper seating that will GREATLY increase pressures) and the Smith revolver (modern version) can handle greater pressures than you would want in your 1911's. Further, there is a LOT of experience out there over the years with the .45 Auto Rim revolver with this bullet seated normally with a proper charge of the proper propellant.

This should NOT be about "what we can get away with" but, rather, what is PRUDENT...

Dale53

[Potsy]

Well.....
I did go to the range today but did not try that combo.
I did do a lot of thinking about what .35Remington pointed out and decided that if I did give it a whirl, I would experiment with chambering a dummy round several times and check for setback.
I did have some success with a kinda freaky "cause it's there" experiment; more on that later...

[tek4260]

Isn't experiments like this a good reason to own a RIA? :)

[Catshooter]

Potsy,

The short-to-non-exsistant throat of almost all 45s require that the 452424 be seated deep enough that very little of the front driving band is exposed outside the brass. Like .020 or so.

Since the 452424 shape and design charactaristics vary so much, the only way to know is to try it, or don't. That's up to you.

If you test out the set back issues (a very good idea) and you're good to go, then a few rounds isn't going to hurt anything. Not at the loading levels you first posted. One thousand feet is way tooooooooooo much in my opinion, the 1911 was never designed for it.

I use a current production Lyman 452424 over 4.7 grains of Universal Clays in my S&W Shorty .45s. This gives me about 790 fps from their short barrels, about 810 from my 1911.

With my dies, tools, equipment and techniques it's safe, or has been so far.

Do what you like, just know what you're doing when you do it.


Cat

[Lonerider]

Been going in that direction also for the past couple of weeks, but have come full circle. I would not mind finding a mould around 240 - 245 gr though. I want to use my PT 1911, for close up deer hunting. Not much diffrent than archery....about same distances.

Can we shoot 250,255, 260, and larger in our 1911's......yep. Decided I just did not want to beat my gun up.

I figure if I cast 230gr. with wheel weights, I will get close to that mark anyways.

35 REM, are you the same 35 REM on MO????

Boys and girls, if he is, we are truely bless to have him here on Castboolits.

Lonerider

[45 2.1]

Been going in that direction also for the past couple of weeks, but have come full circle. I would not mind finding a mould around 240 - 245 gr though. I want to use my PT 1911, for close up deer hunting. Not much diffrent than archery....about same distances.

Can we shoot 250,255, 260, and larger in our 1911's......yep. Decided I just did not want to beat my gun up.

I figure if I cast 230gr. with wheel weights, I will get close to that mark anyways.

35 REM, are you the same 35 REM on MO????

Boys and girls, if he is, we are truely bless to have him here on Castboolits.

Lonerider

454424........... nice boolit. Works fine in fact. Do I load it as is in the 45 ACP........nope. I load a deeply hollow pointed version that weighs a little less than the factory ball round........ one of my design. That works better than you would believe. The 454423 HP'd works well to. The 452490 Modified HP'd by BRP works better than all of them. http://www.brp.castpics.net/P2.html

[Char-Gar]

I have used the lighter (230-240 grain) Keith bullet (452423) in the 1911 auto pistol for many years with no problems, but a couple of things need to be born in mind.

1. The deep seated bullet with the accompanying reduced powder capacity is something to content with and taken seriously.

2. A few pistol feed this bullet with no problem, but most need some barrel throating to give reliable feeding.

3. Is, it worth it? Well that depends. I started doing it way back in 1961 because it was the only mold I had. I deep doing it out of habit and nostalga. Starting over again, I would use bullets better suited for the task. Lyman 452460 would be my top choice.

[hicard]

I used a round top punch on my 452423 bullets when sizing them to put a round edge on the nose and am loading them with 5.5 grs of Unique to get 800 fps and 342 foot pounds in my 5" 45 acp. They are feeding like butter and I will be trying them out in the second monthly bowling pin shoot coming up this month at our indoor range. Last month I shot a 40 s&w with factory 180 gr jhp bullets. Did good but I want to see how these do. I feel they will do very good. A friend of mine used lead rn bullets in his 45 and another used 230 gr turncated nose bullets last month and both did good. It is fun to experiment. Back in the old days, I used a 255-270 gr swc with 4.5 grs of Unique but had jams once in awhile. Not fun.

[Catshooter]

The Lyman 452460 does have a lot going for it. Esp at 900 fps or so.


Cat

[dk17hmr]

I use a 454424 (260gr .452) in my 1911 45 acp.....for my carry load. I am getting an average of 870fps with it using AA9. My Springfield 1911 has alot of rounds through it, the barrel is ramped so that Im sure helps. The 454424 is very accurate for me in it and hits like a freight train. The recoil is stout compared to my plinking load, I dont notice it much as I shoot some large handguns, but my future wife can run my 1911 like a Marine and this load is not to much for her to hit her intended target quickly with 3 shots.

For general plinking I use a 200gr SWC.