Mp44

[Combat Diver]

As stated I'll post my article that I wrote back in 04' on the MP44.

Machinenpistole 44- From A Lucky Shooter’s Perspective

What’s a MP44? It’s the first truly developed assault rifle designed by Germany during WWII firing a reduced cartridge known as the 7.92x33 Kurz. Guns saw service primary on the eastern front and are a select fire weapon.

Characteristics
Caliber: 7.92x33 Kurz (short)
Weight: 11.5 lbs
Length: 37”
Cyclic Rate: 500 rpm
Magazine Capacity: 30 rounds

I won’t go into the full history of these rifles, just a brief description of the two MP44 captured here in Iraq and a shooters opinon. The first was found here in Baghdad at one of Saddam’s palaces. Saddam and family have shown to have a love of collecting firearms, unlike his own people. An SF and Coalition Force found the second during a raid on a weapons market out in the western part of the country. There is a known third specimen further north with another SF team.

Rifle #1 is in excellent condition (Saddam’s) and #2 is in very good condition with a slight wobble to the stock. Rifle #1 is all matching (upper receiver, lower receiver, stock, operating rod, and bolt.) #2 is also mostly all matching. Sometime during the war several parts (operating rod, stock extension and butt stock) had been replaced. The operating rod has another serial number over-stamped and the butt extension contains two serial number strikeouts and a third number forged. The weapon appears to have been rebuilt at an arsenal during the war.

The ammunition appears to be East German and manufactured in 1961. The 15rd cardboard boxes are in German and labeled as 7.92-mm-Patr.Kz 43 SmE mit St. Hulse. Bullet weight is 8.1gm (124gr) and listed velocity is 686mps (2,247fps). I don’t remember what the SmE is, but I do know it’s the bullet construction code, Splitzer. The cases are Berdan primed and made of steel (St. Hulse). I obtained the ammo from another source, which claims that it was recovered from Uday’s palace. (I'm curious where his MP44 is located?)

The magazine capacity is 30 rounds and quite long (about 1” longer than a 30rd AK mag and 2.5” longer than a 30rd M16 mag). The magazine is manufactured from steel stampings and marked MP44. There is one RZM (3rd Reich quality acceptance) eagle on the front and marked "gq" over another eagle stamp. One of the original German complaints was that the magazine was too long, especially when shooting from the prone. Last note on the magazine is that its curve is not as severe as the AK and slightly straighter that of an M16 30 rd mag.

Stocks on both weapons are made of plywood. In other words, laminated thin strips glued together. #1 is light in color and #2 is darker. There is a cutout near the middle bottom for a sling (front sling swivel is forward hand guard on right side). There is no butt plate per se, the butt is ribbed wood. There are two metal guards around each toe. The top strap wraps around, and found on top of the stock is a trap door drilled thru for a cleaning kit/oiler. Unfortunately, the kit was missing from both rifles. Stock is attached with wood screws to a stock extension, and the extension attached to both upper and lower receivers with one push- pin (a design feature later incorporated in the Spanish CEMTE and German G3 rifles). Pistol grips are two wood pieces with horizontal grooves attached with one screw. Forward hand guard is a steel stamping with vent holes around the bottom. After firing one magazine the hand guards became quite warm. Sustained firing would certainly yield burns to unprotected hands, arguably not a major concern given the ambient temperatures of the Eastern front!

Lower receiver group includes the pistol grip, trigger assembly, safety and selector. Safety and semi/auto selector are separate entities. Safety is located on left side above the pistol grip with safe in the "up" position. The operator need only push down with thumb to fire. Stroke is longer than I’m accustomed to, but in the right place. The semi/auto selector is located approximately 1/2" above the safety, and is a push- through system. When pushed to the left an “E” is shown for Einzelfeuer (Semi) and pushes to the right side a “D” for Dauerfeuer (Auto) is shown. Lower receiver pivots down for cleaning when stock is removed, allowing access for cleaning of firing system.

The upper receiver has the rear sight on top graduated in hundred meter increments 1-8. There is a spring-loaded dust cover over the ejection port (a feature which likely influenced Eugene Stoner when designing the M-16, though the MP-44 cover springs up rather than down as on the M-16) on the right side. Operating rod handle distends from the left side. Immediately beneath the handle is the round magazine release. The rifle fires from the closed bolt, and the operating rod reciprocates with each round fired. The operating rod racetrack is open to dirt and other materials. There is no dust cover or cut for a bolt hold-open as with previous and current German submachine guns. The weapon's gas system is located atop the barrel and operating rod rides inside, similar to the AK. The front sight post is cast. Weapon #1's front sight is hooded, while weapon #2 is not. The end of the barrel is threaded and has a muzzle nut screwed on, again reminiscent of the AK. Disassembly resembles any HK weapon. If you can disassemble any HK roller lock rifles (MP5, G3, HK91, etc) you can take this apart for they are very similar. Receivers are also very similar in design and shape. Again the HK lineage certainly is apparent. Modern HK weapons clearly benefit from improvements and innovations, which began with the development of the Mk42/MP43/MP44. The weapon was renamed MP44 by Hitler himself –Strumgewehr/Assualt Rifle)

[Combat Diver]

cont

Shooting results. All firing was done from the 25-meter line with weapon #1. Firing was conducted in Iraq. Fired 5-6 snaps semi auto from the low-ready position at various targets. Rifle swung smoothly. The safety takes some time to get used to after training on the M4 but still very similar to the HK MP5. The MP5 has a longer swing from safe to auto, but semi to auto is slightly shorter. Again, the HK is a 3-position safety, whereas the MP44 is 2-position. After pushing the selector to auto, I again tried a few snaps. That’s when I started having trouble. Not a problem with the gun but my training! I would fire and only get one round off! I’m used to firing 2-3 rd bursts with the M-4 carbine with a cycle rate in excess of 700 rpm. The M-4 trigger has a very short pull and release. I was unable to use that technique with the MP-44. The cyclic rate is approximately 500rpm, but felt somewhat slower. I had to make a conscious effort to depress the trigger longer to achieve 2-3 round bursts. There’s always that training and muscle memory thing! I found the weapon quite controllable for the close range I was shooting. I experienced one misfire. Upon inspection of the round, I noticed the 43- year old ammo had a dent. I re-loaded the round and the weapon fired without further incident.

Two observations I made after firing one magazine: One, there is no bolt hold- open device, either manually or after the last shot. The second was the hand guard was starting to get warm after one magazine. The barrel is right next to the side of the hand guard with a small space on the bottom of the guard. I’m sure this would have been corrected in due time, but the conclusion of the war terminated development on the MP and fostered the beginning of the CEMTE/HK era.

I let a few other shooters to fire 15 rounds a piece from these historical weapons. One of the shooters shot #2 and it functioned flawlessly. The unit will consider taking these weapons home to display in the United States Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center Museum at Fort Bragg, NC. I currently only have one magazine between the two weapons. 14 rounds of ammo are reserved for the Battalion Commander to fire, as he has permitted me the time to follow this quest. I have definitely enjoyed the chance to travel back through history and observe the development of assault weapons and their lasting impact on military history. I hope you, as a shooter and/or military history enthusiast enjoyed the observations from the perspective of the operator, instead of merely a rehash of the already plentiful material regarding the historical development. Here are two links to further read the history and development of the assault cartridges:

“Gun of Many Names” by Richard Gainely
http://www.wwiitech.net/main/germany/weapons/mp43mp44stg44/

“Assault Rifles and their Ammunition” by Anthony G. Williams
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/assault.htm


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MP_44_052.jpg

The 2xMP44s along with a Czech BRNO Persain 29-98 and a Colt M4A1
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Persian_29-98_MP44s_M4A1.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/9809M98_und_MP44_mit_Patr_Named.jpg

and last me shooting the MP44 (29-98 on ground and Rem Rand M1911A1 in holster)
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/9809Blacked_out_George_firing_MP44_2.JPG

CD

Update: There is can be found a 15 rd magazine for the STG45 (different design) that can also use the STG44 mag. This would solve some of the issues of firing in a prone position.

[Mike Venturino]

Combat Diver: Thanks for posting that. My MP44 was made by Erma. It shows some use but functions 100% unless the original magazine is loaded with more than 25 rounds. Thus far I've only fired the Hornady factory loads available from Graf and my own handloads using the Prvi Partisan brass to the tune of about 400 to 500 rounds. It came only with one magazine but recently I found a Class 3 dealer who had some reproduction magazines that he guaranteed. I bought six and have only fired about a half dozen rounds from each but they all functioned fine for that. (I didn't want to shoot more because I'd lose my brass in the snow!)

Come nice weather I plan to clock its RPM and shoot some paper targets, although shooting it from benchrest is difficult for the same reason as shooting prone.

Thanks again for your information and your service.
Mike Venturino

[MtGun44]

Thanks very much for posting that info. Extremely interesting.

These are rare examples of a very historic arm and it is interesting that the vicious Iraqi
leadership were "into" guns. I am glad to hear that the guns will wind up in a museum
rather than being destroyed.

Bill

[Multigunner]

Some photos from the Iran/Iraq war show Iraqi artillerymen with slung STG44.
The Soviets sold thousands of captured STG and those still in East German warehouses or factories to Syria. Saddam was buying every type of military rifle he could get, even VNA capture M16 rifles from Vietnam.

There may be thousands of those STGs still hidden away in Iraq, long put out to pasture due to ammo supply problems and buried in as yet undiscovered arms caches.

[82nd airborne]

CD,
Great write up, many thanks!
Its amazing some of the weapons you find there! My best find was an M3 Grease gun, with a better finish on it than my M4 had. We hung it on our barraks wall, but nut before running a couple mags through it.

[Combat Diver]

Mike, glad that you found some more mags. I'm still searching for them. I wish I'd kept better notes on the proofs and who made the rifles. Diffenitly a historic shoot that day.

What's interesting is that the only year I've found any was after the invasion in 03'. Since that time no more, no mags and no ammo. Total count found that year that I can trace were a total of 12ea MP44 rifles. Total production was near 250,000 of all varaties.

CD

[bruce drake]

I had a MP44 in my Captured Enemy Weapons Arms Room in Kirkuk in 2008. We turned it in to the Iraqi Army's rebuild/destroy program along with 3 other pallets worth of weapons. If I remember right, the capture tag stated it was taken in a cache located NW of the village of Hawijah.

Bruce

[82nd airborne]

I saw the IA patrolling with an MG42 as well onetime, I wanted to shoot it so bad, but was too busy.
I got/had to stand and watch a pile of historical weapons, and some junk, get destroyed by our motorpool retards. Not saying at all that motorpool guys are retards, just that the ones I had to use were. One was a FA cz squorpion, alot of ppsh43's, and a very very nicely gold inlaid sxs shotgun of an odd guage. Talk about angry, I dont like radicals at all, but come one, a nice sxs shotgun?! it was probably taken from one of the law abiding citizens there, if there were any. Imagine if that happened here?

The best place for me to find cool guns was in the slums of Saddar City, Baghdad. I never foung anything as significant as an MP44. It probably would have made me dishonest had I been so lucky, so I guess its good I didnt.

[82nd airborne]

Bruce, hope you dont mind, I am putting a little exra touch on your upper.

[82nd airborne]

CD, Im sure you know where the glock 18 that Saddam had on his person ended up, no?

[Combat Diver]

I thought it was a CZ75 that Saddam was captured with. But in either case I do not know. I did have one of his Belgium engraved Hi Powers (left it behind also). Notice the intials in the mother of pearl grips.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/BHP-SH-_2.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/BHP-SH-_1.jpg

CD

[82nd airborne]

It could be BS, but I grew up with a guy who became a very large international arms dealer that the govt used. He said he transferred on a form 4, a glock 18c to George W Bush Jr, that was pulled off of Saddam. Who knows if its true? I can see a cz75 being more likely, and that browning is a work of art!, I hope it was brought home.
Sorry to highjack your thread!

[Von Dingo]

Thanks for the follow through CD. How did it compare to the FA M-4 in controllability?

Love the HP.

[82nd airborne]

Thanks for the follow through CD. How did it compare to the FA M-4 in controllability?

Love the HP.

Good question, Id also like to know. I bet it is much harder to control than an M4A1 with its heavy barrel and light bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

Good question, Id also like to know. I bet it is much harder to control than an M4A1 with its heavy barrel and light bullets.

The MP44 is a heavy weapon like the original AK47, over 10 lbs with loaded mag if I recall correctly. I found it to be quite controlable with 2-3 shot bursts. Was more controlable than the M16A1 with 2-3 round bursts of M193 ammo.

Larry Gibson

[Mike Venturino]

My MP44 by Erma is right at 11 pounds with an empty magazine inserted.

Mike V.

[Combat Diver]

As stated due to the weight and lower cyclic rate the MP44 (500rpm) is quite controlable especially if your trained to control a full auto M4A1 (750rpm in a lighter 6 lb wpn).

CD

[Larry Gibson]

My MP44 by Erma is right at 11 pounds with an empty magazine inserted.

Mike V.

Thanks Mike, I was going strictly off memory (wasn't near any references) of my experience shooting the MP44 some 25 years or so ago. I was with an SF contingent that went to a specops symposium back in the mid '80s in Australia hosted by the Australian SAS. We put on the foriegn and obsolete weapons portion (a full weeks worth) and took 95 different weapons with us plus what the other nations brought along. We also took a lot of ammo with us. We had a very nice MP44 and managed a bit of ammo for it. That was probably the best "deployment" of my Army career. Was there a month, were treated like royalty by the SAS and 1RAR, did a lot of shooting, met a lot of wonderful people, drank a lot of beer (just to be socialable of course:drinks:) and had a wonderful time.

Larry Gibson

PS; Forgot to mention, I even got paid for it[smilie=s:

[Mike Venturino]

Larry: I envy you that experience with all those different weapons. The only ones of my experience are the ones bought by me or friends. There's so much to learn and so little time.......

Mike V.

[MakeMineA10mm]

CD - Great write-up.

In case you haven't looked it up already, the "SmE" on the cartridges stood for: "Spitzgeschoss mit Eisern" which means spitzer bullet with iron (core). If you put a magnet to the bullet, it would stick.

I always thought it odd that with the need for tanks and machine guns, they'd found steel and iron to be readily available enough to use them for an expendable like ammunition...

[Larry Gibson]

Mike

Yes, the many years being an SF Weapons NCO sure helped feed my addiction to this sport and often scratched my itchy trigger finger:p I got to study and learn about many different weapons, shoot them and instruct on them in some pretty exotic places (a few not so exotic also.:cry:).

Larry Gibson

[Russell James]

"Outstanding"!

[Combat Diver]

Oops, just saw where the surplus video was already posted.

CD

[303Guy]

MP44? I've heard it called that but thought it was actually a StG44 (SturmGewehr 44). The first assault rifle and inspiration for the AK47. Sturm means storm or assault.

OK, cleared my own question;

The StG 44 (Sturmgewehr 44, literally "storm (or assault) rifle (model of 19)44") was an assault rifle developed in Nazi Germany during World War II that was the first of its kind to see major deployment and is considered by many historians to be the first modern assault rifle.[4] It is also known under the designations MP 43 and MP 44 (Maschinenpistole 43, Maschinenpistole 44 respectively), which denote earlier development versions of the same weapon with some differences like a different butt end, muzzle nut, shape of the front sight base or with an unstepped barrel, all only visible with close inspection.

[Multigunner]

CD - Great write-up.

In case you haven't looked it up already, the "SmE" on the cartridges stood for: "Spitzgeschoss mit Eisern" which means spitzer bullet with iron (core). If you put a magnet to the bullet, it would stick.

I always thought it odd that with the need for tanks and machine guns, they'd found steel and iron to be readily available enough to use them for an expendable like ammunition...



It wasn't so much steel or iron being scarce it was high quality steel made from high quality iron ore that could become scarce and the metals used in high strength steel alloys. Iron is fairly cheap, and scrap iron or steel unsuited to high stress applications would be cheaper still.
The Germans used Tungsten core AP bullets for awhile, but switched to steel cores when they ran short of Tungsten.
The U S had tried Tungsten cores but settled on electric funace hardened steel cores for .30 AP due to expense and supply problems of Tungsten.

Iron or mild steel core bullets are much cheaper in massive quanties necessary for war than lead cores, and penetrate better.
Steel jackets clad with copper or other such metals are a great deal cheaper than copper or gilding metal jackets. Theres always plenty of iron ore to be mined. Only destruction of smelters and blast furnaces by bombings could cause a shortage of iron and steel, or a collapse of the steel industry.
Even then the junkyards of that era held billions of tons of scrap steel.

[Ed in North Texas]

MP44? I've heard it called that but thought it was actually a StG44 (SturmGewehr 44). The first assault rifle and inspiration for the AK47. Sturm means storm or assault.

OK, cleared my own question;

IIRC, the development program resulted in the MP (Maschinenpistole) because Hitler was enamored of the MP38 and 40. So he decreed that all developmental efforts would go toward sub-guns. To hide the Sturmgewehr program, they called it an MP instead of the StG. The weapons were popular with the troops on the Eastern front, and Hitler finally gave his permission to produce what then became known as the StG44.

Germany had enough problems, but Der Fuhrer created more. Having to hide small arms development because the dictator personally involves himself in the decisions is ludicrous. Hitler also screwed up the Me 262 program by insisting that it be a fighter/bomber. The effort which went into trying to make it a bomber set the entire program back (which was good luck for the B-17 and B-24 crews). Adolf Galland, then heading up operational control of the fighter groups couldn't convince Hitler to change his mind for quite some time. Galland ended the war with 103 kills, including 7 with the Me-262.

In any event, there is no doubt this was the first successful assault rifle.

Ed

[Combat Diver]

One slight change Chief. It was given the Maschinenpistole designated because after Hilter decried to stop production on the Maschinenkarbine (Mkb) designation. Series started out as the Mkb42 series, then MP43, MP44. Hitler give it the new name Sturmgewher44.


CD

[303Guy]

Thanks for that Ed in North Texas. I remember about them hiding the programme from Hitler now. That was quite early on in the war, which is why the Russians were exposed to it. Interesting stuff this WWII history!

P.S. Do you know why the ME 262 was designated ME and not BF as was the standard? It was to hide the fact by giving it a similar designation to an earlier aircraft, the BF 262.

Well, the MP44 is a piece of WWII history!:roll: A very interesting piece.

[Combat Diver]

This is something I knew but looked it up for dates.

Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG (BFW) was reconstituted as Messerschmitt AG on July 11, 1938, with Willy Messerschmitt as chairman and managing director. The renaming of BFW resulted in the company's RLM designation changing from Bf to Me for all newer designs that were accepted by the RLM after the acquisition date. Existing types, such as the Bf 109 and 110, retained their earlier designation in official documents, although sometimes the newer designations were used (in error) as well. Wikipedia



CD

[Ed in North Texas]

This is something I knew but looked it up for dates.

Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG (BFW) was reconstituted as Messerschmitt AG on July 11, 1938, with Willy Messerschmitt as chairman and managing director. The renaming of BFW resulted in the company's RLM designation changing from Bf to Me for all newer designs that were accepted by the RLM after the acquisition date. Existing types, such as the Bf 109 and 110, retained their earlier designation in official documents, although sometimes the newer designations were used (in error) as well. Wikipedia



CD

As a guy I used to work with (waist gunner on a -17, only survivor of his crew on October 24, '43 - Black Thursday) said, the plane they really hated to see show up was the FW-190. Of course he was in the camps long before the Me-262 became operational.

Ed

[303Guy]

... changing from Bf to Me for all newer designs ...Thanks for correcting me, Ed. I got my erroneous 'information' from a documentary or I read it somewhere and I believed it!:oops: That leads me to question all information I receive before accepting it as fact.

My apologies for sidetracking the thread - WWII aircraft are of great interest to me as the weapons of that conflict. There is a connection - combat aircraft carried guns!:Fire:

Back to topic, does anyone have the working details of the MP/StG 44? Also, I've never come across the ballistics for it. Does anyone have them?

[Combat Diver]

according to the ammo table on new ammo by prvi partizan:

7.92x33 (.323 dia)

124gr bullet
685 m/s velocity (about 2247 FPS)
1900j muzzle energy (about 1400 Ft/lbs)

rim dia is .473 IIRC

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=101007


Mike Venturoino just had a reloading article on the MP44 and 7.92x33 in the latest Handloader (issue 279, Aug 12). If you look at the developement of intermediate assualt cartridges almost countries all are in this area.


CD

[bigbuck]

Greetings from Munich,

I am a happy owner of a STG43, made by Haenel.

i am looking for a nice lead boolits, because fmj everyone can load and shoot with a STG43...

I have accurate molds for my 44-40 and 45-60. Can you recommend an accurate mold for my 8x33 kurz?

br

bigbuck

[Combat Diver]

Grüß Gott, Ich verbrachte 3 Jahre in Bad Tolz und 3 Jahre in Boblingen. I wish I could recommend you a mold that would cast about a 123gr bullet for your Haenel. I can't think of any that currently produce it. You may have to request a custom mold be made for you.

Tschuess,

CD

[reivertom]

This is a great write up for us folks that dream of getting to shoot apiece of history like that. I do get to shoot my Garand and m1917.....not complaining..., but they aren't near as exotic as the STG44 and they don't have the "pew,pew,pew" button... Thanks, and be careful...

[bigbuck]

Hello CD,

so you speak some German, don t you?

Well having a mould made for me may has an advantage as well - i could optimize the design of the bullet/ogive to just not meet the barrel rifling and keep the OAL mag friendly.

br

bigbuck

[Multigunner]

Perhaps this .323 cast boolit intended for the .310 Cadet rifle could be adapted.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/323-120-grain-cast-lead-heeled-bullet-20-1-alloy-for-310-cadet-unlubed-box-of-50-323120

Its a Heel base design but if a 8mm gascheck could be crimped onto the base it should work.