first time shooting my T/C 54

[garbear]

I have question about my patches I recovered they were torn. Any patch I have retrieved in my 50 side locker it is in one piece and shows the rifling.

Here is the load I am using. 60 grains t7FFF(all I have on hand) felt wad cast RB and patch(ball weight 224 grains. .053 diameter.) #11 caps Remington and CCI. both patches the same no matter what cap. Accuracy group not the best, but I am still getting used to the rifle and I believe she'll shoot fine. I didn't try with out the felt wad don't know if that will make a difference. The rifle looked like it had never been fired when I bought it. although I can't prove it. I started at the low end because I am working on a load for this rilfe. I used T/C site for load info. I'll up my charge to try and find the sweet spot.

There online manual suggest for PRB 60 grains to start and max 120 grains. I believe th twist rate to be 1-48. I also have some REAl that weight 30o grains.


Thanks
Garbear

[wgr]

try a spit patch and see what happens

[41magfan]

What are you useing for your patchs and how thick?

[Lead Fred]

Your patch problem sounds like lube. Use only Thompson Center 1000+ lube and cleaner. You can get pre made patches with the lube in them. They are yellow in color.

NEVER use petroleum based oils in your barrel. They react with the burnt powder to make sludge.

Now to how much powder.

Below is listed the Davenport formula. If I had your barrel length, I would have figured it out for you.

When you plug in your numbers. You will find the OPTIMUM burn rate. That means the max amount you can use with out wasting powder and either flaming or unburnt powder hitting the ground.

This may NOT be your most accurate load, but any more than this load is a waste.

I shoot a 45 cal with a 42 inch barrel. My standard load was 55gr. It made 1650fps.
When I did long shots I would double it, and get 2030fps.
After doing the formula, I found that 74.5 grs was my optimum load.
Which yields my 2030fps. The rest was wasted.


**************************************

The Cubic area of the bore would be done this way:

Take the bore diameter( or groove diameter and then calculate both cubic areas. Then subtract the area created by the lands, to get the actual true Cubic area of a rifled barrel. Generally, the difference is measured in a couple of grains, and is not worth the extra brain power used.) and divide it by 2 to get the Radius of the bore. (r)

Area of a circle is determined by the formula A= PiR Squared. Pi= 3.1416. So, Multiply the Radius by itself(to square it) and then multiply that number by Pi to find the area of the circle the diameter of the Bore of your gun.

Now Multiply that number( area) times the 11.5 to get the amount of powder in one inch of your bore. Multiply that number by the length of your barrel to get the total capacity for your whole barrel.





Example:


( .50 cal. divided by 2 = .25; times .25 = .0625; times 3.1416= .19635; times 11.5 =2.2580; times 28(barrel length)=63.22 grains of powder.)

If you want to know the cubic space inside one inch of a .50 caliber rifle, you can use .50 as the diameter, or measure the actual land to land dimension, and then the groove diameter, and then the groove depth, to work out EXACT the cubic area of that particular bore.


Here is how to calculate the Davenport Formula:

.50 divided by 2 = .25


.25 x .25 = .0625


.0625 times Pi( 3.1416)= 0.19635


.19635 x 11.5 = 2.2580


2.2580 x 28 inches( barrel length)= 63.22 grains of powder.


___________________


Assume you are shooting a 28 inch .50 caliber rifle barrel. The cubic area of that bore will be 28 x .19635 = 5.4978 cubic inches.

Now, because you do have grooves in that barrel, you can refine that a bit more.

Assume that the actual groove diameter of your gun is .501" ( my .50 caliber rifle's actual bore diameter)


Run the Davenport formula and you get:

.501 divided by 2 = .2505


.2505 x .2505 = .0627502


.0627502 x 3.1416 = 0.197136


0.197136 x 11.5 = 2.267064


2.267064 x 28 = 63.477792 grains of powder.


A cube of anything is determined by multiply the height times the width, times the depth, of the object. When you need to compute the cubic area of a cylinder, or other non-square object, it gets a bit more involved.

Now assume that the bore diameter is actually .490, and groove depth is .0055"( .501 minus .490 divided by 2 = .0055")( again, my gun's actual bore diameter)

Now assume that there are 6 lands and grooves, of equal width. The circumference of that bore( .490) is .769692" Divide that by 12( 6 grooves and 6 lands) and you get the width of the lands and grooves to be .064141".

To adjust the cubic area to correct for these "obstructions", you need to subtract from 5.519808 the area occupied by those 6 lands, that are .064141" wide, and .0055" deep.


So, multiply 6 time times .064141 times .0055 = .0003527"


5.519808 - .0003527 = 5.5194553 Cubic Inches


______________________________


If we ran the davenport formula using the Land to land diameter( bore diameter) of .490, we get:


.490 divided by 2 - ..245


.245 x .245 = .060025


.060025 x 3.1416 =.1885745 square inches. ( for a circle that is .490 in diameter.)


.1885745 x 11.5 = 2.1686067 grains per inch


2.168067 x 28 = 60.720987 grains of powder.


So, if you use the smaller diameter of the bore( land to land[.490]) The Davenport formula will give you only


60.72 grains of powder in that 28 inch barrel.


If you use the nominal .50 caliber, the formula gives you


63.22 grains of powder in that 28 inch barrel.

[waksupi]

Sounds like too thin of a patch/ under sized ball. Try a tight load.
Bore may be rough, but probably not.
As for Bore Butter, works for some, not for others. I found in this climate, it fouls the barrel terribly in under ten shots, and is almost impossible to load in cold weather after one or two shots. It is beeswax and oil, probably olive oil. The beeswax builds up in the bore. I never got my best accuracy with it.
I have much better luck with Moose Milk. One part machinist water soluble oil, available at NAPA, and 8-12 parts of water, which ever seems to work best. Ballistol can be substituted for the WS oil.

[garbear]

I am using bore butter. I am going to try a thicker patch. Bore is in excellent shape. Riffling looks great no rough spots that I see or feel.

[Dean D.]

Garrett, Ric has made me a believer of Moose Milk. I've shot all day long and never had to swab the bore on my .54 Lancaster. I've watched others shooting Bore Butter type lubes have to swab their barrel every couple shots. Whatever works for ya, to each their own.

[northmn]

Either too thin patches or possibly a rough crown. Likely too thin patching.

DP

[bubba.50]

sharp edges on t/c rifling sometimes cuts my patches all to pieces just cleanin' it. for what it's worth, bubba.

[garbear]

If it is sharp riffling would lapping the bore help? I am going to try some pillow ticking and see what that does. I am going to try with and without my wad. also. I am at the low end of the charge I can play with that also. Thanks Garbear

[garbear]

Your patch problem sounds like lube. Use only Thompson Center 1000+ lube and cleaner. You can get pre made patches with the lube in them. They are yellow in color.

NEVER use petroleum based oils in your barrel. They react with the burnt powder to make sludge.

Now to how much powder.

Below is listed the Davenport formula. If I had your barrel length, I would have figured it out for you.

When you plug in your numbers. You will find the OPTIMUM burn rate. That means the max amount you can use with out wasting powder and either flaming or unburnt powder hitting the ground.

This may NOT be your most accurate load, but any more than this load is a waste.

I shoot a 45 cal with a 42 inch barrel. My standard load was 55gr. It made 1650fps.
When I did long shots I would double it, and get 2030fps.
After doing the formula, I found that 74.5 grs was my optimum load.
Which yields my 2030fps. The rest was wasted.


**************************************

The Cubic area of the bore would be done this way:

Take the bore diameter( or groove diameter and then calculate both cubic areas. Then subtract the area created by the lands, to get the actual true Cubic area of a rifled barrel. Generally, the difference is measured in a couple of grains, and is not worth the extra brain power used.) and divide it by 2 to get the Radius of the bore. (r)

Area of a circle is determined by the formula A= PiR Squared. Pi= 3.1416. So, Multiply the Radius by itself(to square it) and then multiply that number by Pi to find the area of the circle the diameter of the Bore of your gun.

Now Multiply that number( area) times the 11.5 to get the amount of powder in one inch of your bore. Multiply that number by the length of your barrel to get the total capacity for your whole barrel.





Example:


( .50 cal. divided by 2 = .25; times .25 = .0625; times 3.1416= .19635; times 11.5 =2.2580; times 28(barrel length)=63.22 grains of powder.)

If you want to know the cubic space inside one inch of a .50 caliber rifle, you can use .50 as the diameter, or measure the actual land to land dimension, and then the groove diameter, and then the groove depth, to work out EXACT the cubic area of that particular bore.


Here is how to calculate the Davenport Formula:

.50 divided by 2 = .25


.25 x .25 = .0625


.0625 times Pi( 3.1416)= 0.19635


.19635 x 11.5 = 2.2580


2.2580 x 28 inches( barrel length)= 63.22 grains of powder.


___________________


Assume you are shooting a 28 inch .50 caliber rifle barrel. The cubic area of that bore will be 28 x .19635 = 5.4978 cubic inches.

Now, because you do have grooves in that barrel, you can refine that a bit more.

Assume that the actual groove diameter of your gun is .501" ( my .50 caliber rifle's actual bore diameter)


Run the Davenport formula and you get:

.501 divided by 2 = .2505


.2505 x .2505 = .0627502


.0627502 x 3.1416 = 0.197136


0.197136 x 11.5 = 2.267064


2.267064 x 28 = 63.477792 grains of powder.


A cube of anything is determined by multiply the height times the width, times the depth, of the object. When you need to compute the cubic area of a cylinder, or other non-square object, it gets a bit more involved.

Now assume that the bore diameter is actually .490, and groove depth is .0055"( .501 minus .490 divided by 2 = .0055")( again, my gun's actual bore diameter)

Now assume that there are 6 lands and grooves, of equal width. The circumference of that bore( .490) is .769692" Divide that by 12( 6 grooves and 6 lands) and you get the width of the lands and grooves to be .064141".

To adjust the cubic area to correct for these "obstructions", you need to subtract from 5.519808 the area occupied by those 6 lands, that are .064141" wide, and .0055" deep.


So, multiply 6 time times .064141 times .0055 = .0003527"


5.519808 - .0003527 = 5.5194553 Cubic Inches


______________________________


If we ran the davenport formula using the Land to land diameter( bore diameter) of .490, we get:


.490 divided by 2 - ..245


.245 x .245 = .060025


.060025 x 3.1416 =.1885745 square inches. ( for a circle that is .490 in diameter.)


.1885745 x 11.5 = 2.1686067 grains per inch


2.168067 x 28 = 60.720987 grains of powder.


So, if you use the smaller diameter of the bore( land to land[.490]) The Davenport formula will give you only


60.72 grains of powder in that 28 inch barrel.


If you use the nominal .50 caliber, the formula gives you


63.22 grains of powder in that 28 inch barrel.
.54 cal barrle barrel 28" long. using the above method
I came up with 73.74.

I think I'll just play with the charge

[northmn]

That formula is a nice complicated way to determine a powder charge and does not mean much. At best a starting charge only. The old timers used what was called a stricken measure by pouring powder over the ball in the plam of their hand and came out with roughly the same results. Also there are variations in powder brands and granulations that can change things. Most 54's will shoot about 60-70 grains of 3f as a good target load and can usually handle about 90-110 grains of 2f for serious. Mine has a 1-70" twist and handles those charges well as did several TC's I had seen in matches.
Basically you need to try a heavier patching or a 535 ball. The pilow ticking sounds good. Depending on your use, any of the luquid lubes work off the bench but you want a wax/grease based lube for field use as the liquid lubes can dry out or rust the bore. Some muzzle laoders need to be "shot in" a little bit. They used to say the difference between an off the shelf barrel and a hand lapped one was about 100-200 rounds. One good method of removing a few machining burls is to run a wad of "Scoth Brite" down the bore as it cannot scratch the steel. That is suggested often by Don Getz of Getz barrels.

DP

[waksupi]

Definitely go to pillow ticking patch. I bet that solves the problem.

[Lead Fred]

.54 cal barrle barrel 28" long. using the above method
I came up with 73.74.
I think I'll just play with the charge

So somewhere between 55grs & 74 is your best load, only you shooting it will find out.

[405]

That's a lot of bandwith to derive a form of theoretical BP efficiency.

I'd just start at 50 gr of FFg or FFFg real black powder and work up in 5-10 gr increments. And, so as to eliminate another variable, get a few .530 swaged RBs and a few .535 swaged RBs and some .015 +/- pillow ticking and some .010 +/- tight weave cotton. In a couple of good, dedicated range days you should be able to figure out the best load(s). SWAB/CLEAN between tests. In the process you will start to lap that bore. I'm in the school of thought that a combo of one a couple of the following is the likely cause of the torn/blown patches: new bore w/ sharp leading land edges, undersize ball and/or underthickness patch.

To bypass the "break-in lapping by shooting"- you can run a scotch brite pad thru a few times as 'northmn' posted or put some fine abrasive on a tight jagged patch and run it thru a few times... an aggressive toothpaste can be use as a lapping compound. Or, if you're feeling frisky you can shoot a few patched RBs with the patches smeared with a lapping compound, again even toothpaste will work.

[ironhead7544]

Pillow ticking makes the best patch. Get a couple of yards and wash it twice to remove the sizing. Cut it into strips with the stripes and wide enough to patch the ball. When loading, put the colored side down and the stripe parallel to the front sight. Cut the patch with a sharp knife or straight razor. For cleaning the bore and a patch lube this is the formula I got from a national record holder: 1 oz water soluble oil from Napa, 1 oz hydrogen peroxide from the drug store, 1 oz dish washing liquid, 1 quart of water. Need to keep it in an opaque container as light will degrade it. Also known as Moose Milk. I heard this was the formula being used at Friendship.

Try .530 and .535 ball sizes. Accuracy has been just OK with my 54 Renegade with PRB. Im thinking of getting a slow twist barrel to replace the 1 in 48 in. The Maxie Hunter was very accurate in that twist.

[garbear]

I shot tonight could find my patch but it was breeze out on the desert tonight. I'll be shooting tomorrow. I have 3 tubes of bore butter. I may mix up some moose milk and give it a whirl.

[birddog 6]

Be careful with Hydrogen Peroxide; it can cause flash rusting in the bore and the bore needs to be oiled immediately after use. Also heard taht it can harm the blueing.
Check out these formulas.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/181050-lube-cleaner-recipes.html

[DIRT Farmer]

I generaly start with the number on the side of the barrel for the starting load, 54 cal. =54 grains of powder. From what I have read the old timers were chingcy with their powder charges. For a while I was able to find T-Cs with sewer pipe barrels commonly at yard sales with sewer pipe barrels. Even these if worked out with Scotch Brite pades would shoot OK between 50 and 75 grains of powder, .535 ball and ticking patches. Try a spit patch, as the price is right and they work in a lot of guns.

[Maven]

garbear, I don't think the powder charge is the problem, but rather, patch thickness v. RB diameter. Usually T/C bbls. are spec'ed for a RB .10" under the caliber in question and a .014" -.016" patch. However, yours may need a thicker (.018") patch and/or a .535" RB. Another unhappy possibility is that you've got a bad bbl., which, although uncommon, T/C has been known to produce. If so, get in touch with them and their Customer Service dept. (1-603-330-5659). As for lubes, Bore Butter works well for me, but your bbl. may require wiping after firing and again after the patched RB is seated. Ditto for spit patches, btw. Lastly, try not to change more than one factor at a time.

[bigted]

after much experimenting and nearly throwing in the towel i came to understand a couple things...aside from patch thickness and powder charge.

most production guns come to us rough at best and require either a ton of shooting to do a proper breakin or start from the gate with some "tricks" to speed up the breakin procedure. here is what ive learned so far and my education is ongoing.

examine the crown very closely...with a magnifying glass...see any burrs or sharp edges...make em smooth!

look at the rifling inside the bore ...again very closely...as with a bore scope...dont have one then go to a gunsmith and ask if he will show you the bore of your gun...again...smooth them sharp edges up.

look at the angle of the hammer as it contacts the nipple...make sure it hits square and flat....acccomplish this by gently tweaking the hammer angle till its rite.

pay attention to the wedge as it goes into the thimble to hold the barrel to the stock whether 1 or 2 wedges involved...make sure they or it do not "bend" the barrel by exerting too much force on the barrel...some work with this by glass bedding the barrel to the stock.......work very carefully if you go this route.

now the fun part.....working to develope a good load and patch thickness as well as ball/boolit diameter and the rite spark as well as the just rite consistant preassure on the loading rod...commence to shoot the be-snuff outta stuff and have a ball.

if you dont do the first things that are mechanical then you may spend a lifetime trying to understand what is what with your muzzleloaders. do the tough stuff first ...then the other stuff will come easy.

[garbear]

I tried some .018 pillow patch.. I didn't find the patches after shooting. I doubt the barrel is bad I visually inspected using my bore light. Also ran a tight patch on the jag and didn't feel any tight spots. I didn't see any problems in the bore. it looked pristine. The wind is up more then yesterday. After this storm passes hoping to get back on my range and do some shooting and see how she does. She did group better yesterday. I will say this the .018 patch is tight. I think since I have never doen much shooting with this rifle so far that time on the range will yield and I'll start getting some good groups with this rifle.

@ dirt farmer how would i use a scotchbrite pad to maybe smooth out the bore. Dont want to loose that in the bore.
Garbear

[405]

Huh? if you're worried about losing a pad in the bore then might do a little pre-planning in case you load a ball on top of no powder. :shock:

Really, getting patches (including a sb pad) out of the bore is simple. Just put a small bronze bore brush onto a rod and stick it down the bore. The brush will pick up most any kind of patch that comes off inside a bore..... as will the commercially sold patch worms that look like a corkscrew.

[northmn]

One way to use pads for polishing the bore is to use a slotted jag like for a 410 shotgun. Another is to wrap it around a bore brush. A 54 is a 28 gauge more less so go from there. Another wise investment is a nipple wrench. I have removed a lot of stuff out of rifle bores, including a ball with no powder with a light charge of powder worked into the breech through the nipple hole. Make sure you fill the breech plug and that the ball is seated all the way.

DP

[DIRT Farmer]

I think you will find a .45 cleaning jag will be a close fit in the 54 barrel with a Scotch brite pad. Make sure you have it soaked in water with some dish soap to make it slide eisier. I have woden range rods in most calibers and 3/8ths stainless rods also. It can take a bit of pulling. There is also using JB bore paste on the patch and shooting a few shots. I have used this on abused bores as I would rather shoot than scrub barrels.

[ReloaderEd]

I tried ..535" round balls cast of pure lead and had to use thin patches which didn't work for me at all. I cast 530" round balls with pillow cover stripped fabric, TC patches and accuracy improved immensely. My wife was reading the book "Little House on the Prarie" and it described Laura's Father loading his muzzleloader. He used a patch and roundball, spit on the patch and rammed the round ball down the barrel, then he slung the ram rod down the barrel and kept doing it until the ram rod came out of the barrel bouncing off the round ball. This packed the charge and swaged the round ball into the lands and grooves for a better seal. Gues what? it worked. At fifty yards my daughter who was twelve put five balls touching (off of cross sticks) and won a Hicory Knife as a prize. The load was 50 grs. of FFG black powder and I loaded the rifle for her. And spit patch of coarse with ..530" round ball.