Herters 401 Power Mag

[rmcc]

Have been working on this for a couple of weeks. Here is the progress so far.

Anyway, I have got enough 30/30 brass now from Nick. Justin got me a .403 mould so started in. Justin sent me a few 401 brass he had that had been shot and a few loaded rounds. There must be some chamber variations from revolver to revolver because these would not go in my cylinder. Ran them through a 41 mag sizer and they went in snug. Got a 40 S&W die and sized them again, worked perfect.

Set the lathe up and turned the rims on 40 cases down to .483, this takes a little while. Next, trying to figure out with the little amount of tooling I have for the lathe, was how to cut off cases to length. Finally came up with using a drill bit inside the neck so I could tighten it up tight and using dial caliper to set overall length from rim to bit. I made these a few thousandths long. I figured by the time I trim to length and bell the case mouths I may have some casualties. I will have to buy a set of 10 mm dies to finish up, but so far has beena lot of fun getting stuff around to shoot the ol' gal!! Revolver was made in 61' so I either got a good one or a bad one. From everything I have seen here, they either love them or hate em. Being made by JP Sauer and Sohn is not a bad thing in my mind, I have a 1930 32 ACP that I would put up against a 1903 Colt for quality. But I digress.
THANKS again to everyone on the site here who has helped with brass, bullets, equipment, and knowledge!!
If anyone want photos or a breakdown of the process, PM me and I will be glad to email to you.

Thanks,
Rich

[0verkill]

Any news on this one, I've been wanting a 401 for years but never found one at the right price.

[Treeman]

I believe that most .401 shooters can simplify the brass issue by running .41 magnums all the way up to the rim into a 10mm Auto sizer and knocking them back out with a rod...after that they are sizable in normal fashion in 10mm dies.

[0verkill]

That sounds better than turning the heads down after resizing. At least if I ever do get ahold of one I'll have plenty of info on how to make brass for it.

[onegoodshot]

Here's a little something different in a 401.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/onegoodshot/trailcamsept2011010.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/onegoodshot/OGS%20guns/trailcam0820120.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/onegoodshot/OGS%20guns/trailcamsept2011012.jpg
Here's what got the ball started.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/onegoodshot/OGS%20guns/026.jpg

I'm using 41 mag brass thats been turned down on a lathe a little. I tried the 10mm/40 dies and they work ok for the revolver, but couldnt get the brass that was fired in the revolver to work in the contender. Stumbled on a set of NOS herters dies and when I ran them through the resizer, it worked just fine.

[Reg]

Have made a small pile of 401 brass from 41 Remington brass, its fast and easy. FL size as much as possible in a 401 Mag. Herter die then using a slight tapered mandrel on a lathe, reduce the rim OD to size and do a small amount of polishing in the head area to make sure case will easly chamber. I use a file while on the mandrel and put a small chamfer on the back side of the rim to match factory. Check overall length and trim if needed.
Does take a bit of pressure to force that 41 Mag case into the FL die but it will go. Best to use a good press like a "O" frame . I use a Super Model 3 , works like a top.

:brokenima

[Hang Fire]

Those Herter's revolvers were a well made piece and very accurate for the price. Couple friends back in the 60's had .44 mags and they were very accurate. Think they were made by J.P. Sauer in then West Germany.

IIRC, once read that when Herter's quit making .401 ammo, if one sent in their .401 revolver, he would rebarrel and install a .44 mag cylinder for free.

I did a lot of drooling over those old Herter's catalogs.

[0verkill]

The more I'm on this site the more I think, I mean KNOW I need to get a lathe.


Have made a small pile of 401 brass from 41 Remington brass, its fast and easy. FL size as much as possible in a 401 Mag. Herter die then using a slight tapered mandrel on a lathe, reduce the rim OD to size and do a small amount of polishing in the head area to make sure case will easly chamber. I use a file while on the mandrel and put a small chamfer on the back side of the rim to match factory. Check overall length and trim if needed.
Does take a bit of pressure to force that 41 Mag case into the FL die but it will go. Best to use a good press like a "O" frame . I use a Super Model 3 , works like a top.

:brokenima

[lathesmith]

I remember a friend of mine several years ago had an old Herter's catalog, from the '60's, that talked about the 401 Power Mag. From the description you'd think it was in the howitzer class for power! The description included some rather spectacular feats of big-game marksmanship with comments like "stops a charging bull elephant in its tracks with one shot," or,"hits at 200 yards offhand on a running impala are child's play", and others. Nonsense and exaggeration aside, I'm sure that 401 will be a decent deer-class game-getter when you get it going. I admit, I always thought one of these would be a pretty cool hunting gun, and in some ways they actually were ahead of their time. What's old is new again...

lathesmith

[9.3X62AL]

I well remember that Herter's was never shy about trumpeting the virtues of its wares. Most of my purchases from them were fishing-related, and I recently ran across a package of #16 dry fly hooks in my tying kit from that firm. Even the fish hooks had world-class reputations, per the company.

I greatly enjoy getting moribund calibers and their firearms running again.

[Sam]

Just found this thread.

I have 2 PowerMags and love them both.
Also have 700 factory cases so I'm in real good shape.

They load easy, are very acurate.
Use Lyman 40188 and they are a dream to shoot once you get past that barn door of a hammer (just like every other SA revolver ever made).

[AaronE]

Yes its an old thread....but I have a .401 that i finally have all the goods to get shooting again. a good friend cast up a variety of bullets for me, just need to lube them and load them. I also have a good pile of factory cases, two die sets (one Herters and one CH4D) as well as a good assortment of other noted dies for resizing other brass. So we shall see for the new year.

[Reg]

Look around and try to find a Lyman 401452, this is a Boser design out of the 1930's. Works very well in the solid nose form and if I can ever find a spare will have it cut as a hollow point.
Also a lot of the .401 bores actually slug out at .403 and the mold I have drops ( w-w) at .403. Perfect !!

[tchepone]

rmcc, thank you for the post. I will add this thread to my subscription list. I have Herter Powermag's in .357 & .401.

The .401 is a great and fun gun to shoot. It was well made by J.P. Sauer & Son in West Germany. I have seen a couple sell at gun shows for over $400.00, not bad for something that sold for $47.00 in 1966 at the Herter store.
I also have an extra cylinder that has been re-bored to 38-40. I have a third .401 cylinder, which I am thinking about having re-bored to .40 S&W or 10mm.
This would make for a flexible gun to shoot. The .38-40 brass is readily available, thanks to the cowboy shooters, and the .40 S&W brass is so common it is almost free.
I also have an extra 6½", .401 (also .403" groove) barrel, 6 boxes of new original Herter, .401 brass and 3 boxes of Herter .401 brass that I have been shooting for years. The Herter brass was made by Norma and is of good quality and very durable. Some of mine has been reloaded well over a dozen times.
I have made brass from .41 Magnum by simply deep resizing in my .401 die. Depending on the manufacturer, some of the brass rims can be a bit large to fit in the cylinder counter-bore but it is a minor issue to rectify. I have never found need to make brass out of 30-30, although it is a very do-able endeavour.
Dave, at CH4D has carbide and steel .401 die sets available, and original .401 Herter dies sets show up on fleabay now and then.

I did have some problems in getting various weight bullets to shoot well in elevation. (Not uncommon, I have read of others having the same issue). I ended up having to mill off the front sight to get the gun to shoot to the sights. I have shot bullets varying from 160 to 230gr.
I have not had good accuracy with jacketed bullets, probably because most are .400"-.401".
Both of my barrels have .403" groove diameter. The throats on one cylinder are .406"-.4065", the other cylinder is .406-.407". The throats of the cylinder I had re-bored to .38-40 are .4045".
I ordered a dual weight, 2 cavity mold from Tom at Accurate molds, 180gr and 215 gr, mold #40-190B and 40-215B. Both cavities drop at .404"-.405" with my alloy's. I use clip on wheel weight metal with 2% tin added, for a BHN of 11-12 for the .401, and telephone cable lead & COWW, with a bit of tin, for a BHN of 8-10 for the 38-40. I have cast 180gr bullets with a BHN of 16-17 and they also shoot well. I use sizing dies of .403" & .4045".
Also have a PB Checkmaker from Patmarlin. I have made a bunch of gas checks but haven't haven't had a chance to do a lot of serious testing.
The 401 & the 38-40 both shoot very well, in the 2" range at 50 yards off a sandbag rest. I have used both for hunting whitetail deer. I'm always on the lookout for another Herter Powermag.

There is a fair bit of information on the LASC (Los Angeles Silhouette Club)website, detailing things others have done to and with the guns, as well as some very good load data. Handloader magazine did an article years ago on the gun and I have found other info about them by doing internet searches. Lee Martin, John Taffin, Dick Williams and Glenn Fryxell have all written comprehensive articles about the .401. The gun was well ahead of its time and is long from being obsolete.
I just wish someone would offer a good set of wood grips and a scope mount for it.

[TCLouis]

Glen Fryxell and I think Taffin both have articles out there on the net that were written about the 401.
Glen's may be over at LASC site, Taffin's I do not know/remember, but maybe in print from back when "American Handgnner" was worth subscribing to . . . YEARS ago.

[Old Caster]

J.P. Sauer & Son also made Weatherby rifles in those days. The PX group in Germany in 1965 sold them for $175. We actually had powder and primers or pistols sent to Germany through the mail via APO at that time and we often ordered through Herters. I got my first press which was a model 3 at that time and still have it.

[Big Rack]

I spent hours as a kid drooling over their catalog I need to see if I can find one. Everything from diamonds to the book "How To Live With A B**ch". On top of that everythings was the "World's Finest!" and you know it was cause it said so. I do have a Herter's revolver in 44 mag and it has a great trigger and the world's ugliest target grips also have somewhere G. Herter's great foods of the world book wherein he declares the virtue of a wiener sandwich and if you ever wondered what's in steak sauce he has that recipe too, only his is the kind a knife stands up in, also have his famous "Bull Cook" knife. I would loved to have met him must have been kin to P.T. Barnum.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I was talking shop with the head gunsmith at William`s gunsite shop in Davison several years back about guns and calibers. I asked him about the Herter`s .401 power Mag round. His reply, "never heard of it"!Robert

[9.3X62AL]

With my moth-to-flame attraction to oddball calibers, it is a small wonder that I am not neck-deep on 401 Powermag revolvers, tools, moulds, and componetry. I do load and shoot far less common chamberings, and rather routinely. Yesterday was a typical Day In The Tules--after a lunch meeting in Palmdale, I stopped along Redrock-Randsburg Road and went over a small hillside to do a little clanging on my iron swinger with my war toy of the day--Ruger P-89X, in its 30 Luger configuration--with 9mm recoil spring in place, and healthy cast loads of Lee 100 RN atop 7.5 grains of AA-7. LOUD. Substantial velocity, and they rocked the iron pretty strongly. These run about 1325-1350 FPS from the Ruger's 4-1/4" barrel, and with the stronger spring in place the empty brass ejects kinda weakly right next to my right foot. This is a good thing, because 30 Luger brass does not grow on trees.

[Boogieman]

Each generation has at least one P.T. Barnum ,Geo. Herters, Richard Lee.

[tallend]

At the time Herters was having their problems--I tried to order a spare cylinder for my .401(for a 38-40 conversion)---I got my check back with a note that I would have to come to the store,as he would no longer ship ANY gun parts.
I'm still looking
tallend

[44man]

Anyone that does not know Herter's is a youngster. PT Barnum he was but he had so many things right. I have used the Bull Cook knife for every single deer I have killed and it is still going.
Most of his stuff was made in Germany by good companies, Nothing from China.
I would rather have the "JACK PINE TREE SAVAGE" today then key board punchers.
Back then we knew how to read George, his catalogs were the best ever. Made a kid dream and he never disappointed any of us. I will never say anything bad about George Leonard Herter.
A loss I feel.
I never got anything bad from Herter's.

[9.3X62AL]

A loss I feel.
I never got anything bad from Herter's.

Good summation, 44 Man.

[RJM52]

Best article I have ever read on the .401...

http://www.gunblast.com/Fryxell_Herters401.htm

What is a shame is that such a great cartridge was doomed probably by all the BS Herter put out about it... With this cartridge there was no reason for the .41 Magnum to have ever been developed.... Or what about if some bright bulb at Colt had cut this down to "Special" length and called it the .40 Keith or .40 Police and chambered it in the Trooper and Python... And with the short cylinder and tapered barrel the S&W Highway Patrolman would have been a natural...

With all of the available .40 bullets around too bad Ruger or S&W have not brought out a revolver...like a new S&W 69 in .401....that would humm...

Bob

[44man]

Best article I have ever read on the .401...

http://www.gunblast.com/Fryxell_Herters401.htm

What is a shame is that such a great cartridge was doomed probably by all the BS Herter put out about it... With this cartridge there was no reason for the .41 Magnum to have ever been developed.... Or what about if some bright bulb at Colt had cut this down to "Special" length and called it the .40 Keith or .40 Police and chambered it in the Trooper and Python... And with the short cylinder and tapered barrel the S&W Highway Patrolman would have been a natural...

With all of the available .40 bullets around too bad Ruger or S&W have not brought out a revolver...like a new S&W 69 in .401....that would humm...

Bob
Wonderful write up.
George was a a fun guy but he was not as wrong in the end. How I wish I still had his catalog. I do have cook books, kind of ragged. I truly miss him.

[Reg]

Wonderful write up.
George was a a fun guy but he was not as wrong in the end. How I wish I still had his catalog. I do have cook books, kind of ragged. I truly miss him.

You can still find his catalogs on ebay from time to time. I do notice they are a bit pricy but for those that used to look forward to the new catalog coming out each year it's a small price to pay to bring back the memories.

Ahhh--- those were really "The days " !!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snipped...
PT Barnum he (George Leonard Herter) was but he had so many things right.

...I never got anything bad from Herter's.
I totally agree, and while I am not old enough to have done business with Herter's, I sure collect many items they sold...All very good stuff !



snipped...
What is a shame is that such a great cartridge (401 Herter powermag) was doomed probably by all the BS Herter put out about it...
I have, in my possession, some of this BS. I highly prize it, in fact I just used this book recently to doublecheck a 44Mag load with AL-8.

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/Cover_zpsbc96144e.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/Cover_zpsbc96144e.jpg.html)

The first sentence was soooo important to mention, that ole George repeats it at the end.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/401PM_zps4743e57a.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/401PM_zps4743e57a.jpg.html)


He talks more about the 401 HPM in the 44Mag section...than 44 Mag :)
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/44mag_zps005c2836.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/44mag_zps005c2836.jpg.html)

[TCLouis]

Any "head" gunsmith that had not heard of 401 Powermag would find me going elsewhere to gun work.

Just one of those complete guns knowledge things with me.

If he were young, it would give him a BY

[44man]

How wonderful to see the old stuff. Brings back memories. What a great life we had.

[454PB]

Mine is a .44 magnum. Ugly, but shoots well.

126258

"no more recoil than a .38 Special"......apparently George didn't understand physics.

[RJM52]

I was gifted two Herters presses..one single station that my old hunting partner in Vermont loaded every round of ammo he ever made on. The other is a MASSIVE turret press that another old gun collector friend from Massachusetts gave me. Both are now gone to the other side of the hill.

Instead of using the hard to find Herters shell holders there is a company that makes an adapter to use standard shell holders. But the one Herters product I have found very lacking is their reloading dies. All of them I have tried have been undersized. From what I read Herters ordered them that way. Anyway, if you find a set of Herters rifle dies check the sizer closely...

Bob