Need help coming up with a new reloading plan for .223

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

In times past I've reloading .223 for fun/plinking etc. using standard dies and while I've been happy with the functionality and accuracy, I've not been terribly happy with all that brass trimming. Between a divorce and such other ugliness, I've discovered I no longer have any .223 dies, so replacement and "upgrades" are an option.

So I've got a brand new plan and need help picking out some dies.

Here are my objectives:

1. To full length resize on a SINGLE STAGE press ONE time and then trim the brass cases to minimum length specification aka standard brass processing.

2. To then reload the brass as many times as possible using a PROGRESSIVE press WITHOUT TRIMMING by using an RSBS X-die on the or something similar as my resizing die on the Progressive..

3. Repeat step one only when necessary.

What I can't remember is/are the ramifications of this approach, the things to watch out for and pay attention to in the brass as it's being reloaded several times.

So I need help with what to look for as I go along reloading this brass and I need help selecting a group of dies to minimize the amount of trimming I do. Can you folks make some recommendations of dies to accomplish this effectively? I knew and had this written down, but can't find my information I had.

Thank you,

Dave

[azrednek]

What I can't remember is/are the ramifications of this approach, the things to watch out for and pay attention to in the brass as it's being reloaded several times.


Dave

223 brass aka 5.56 is abundant and dirt cheap if you don't mind spending the time removing the primer's crimp from military 5.56. I've never bothered to trim 223, if it is not right it gets tossed. If I were shooting 223 bench-rest or doing some serious long range varmiting with my 223 I might consider the time and trouble to trim to a consistant length.

My suggestion is to pick up a couple thousand pieces of once fired military brass brass. If you ever get around to loading the brass on it's 3rd round then you might consider trimming it or buy another thousand piecess. Two of my shooting friends are into NFA weapons and both have M-16's. I got into one of their 5.56 brass buys and now have enough 5.56 brass to last untill I croak or get to old to see the target (which ever comes first!!)

Another consideration if it is plinking ammo you have in mind. Some of the steel cased Chinese and Rusky ammo is pretty cheap. Bear in mind you get what you pay for, but do the math and it might cost less or close to roll your owns.

[Slowpoke]

You need to find you a copy of Handloader # 139 (May - June 1989), CE Harris did a excellent article on reloading for semi auto rifles. He lays out all the timesaving tips and preferred tools for the reloader as well as the safety issues + proven loads .223 included, he left no stone unturned.

The information is applicable to anyone faced with loading large quantities of quality ammo fast. The key word in the above sentence at least for me is (quality) .

The methods are as sound today as they were then.

Under normal circumstances I would be happy to make you a copy but I haven't left my place for 2 weeks and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Maybe someone else with a copy will step forward.

good luck

[Buckshot]

...............Dean Grennel ran a test once on case stretching (growing lengthwise). He surmised that the high pressure gas jetting through the neck may have something to do with it, but the reloading process probably had more.

He removed the neck expander-decapper rod from the size die. He de-capped in a de-capping die, then sized casenecks only in the size die. Finally he used an 'M' die to open the casenecks. Those 2 sizing operations pushed DOWN on the brass in the neck vs pulling the pulling up done by the expander-decapper.

This is from the dim recesses of a somewhat disorganized memory so I can't relate numbers, but he was pleased wit the increase in firings before the required case trimming/chamfering.

As I just recently found in my Lee 7.62x54R size die. It takes a caseneck of ~ .314" ID and sizes it down to .302" ID ( a .012" reduction) and upon withdrawl, drags the .302" ID neck back over a mandrel to open it BACK UP to about .310"!

................Buckshot

[andrew375]

My procedure is exactly the same as your requirements.

I got a load of once fired brass, clean and weigh sorted it, then F/l resized, annealed and prep'ed the lot. After first firing in my rifle I only use a Lee collet die and a neck expander die in my Lee 1000 progressive to produce brass ready for loading. If I'm using jacketed bullets I wind out the neck expander. The time this saves me is considerable; I can have over 1000 cases ready for reloading in an hour and a half.

With the collet die case stretching is something other people have a problem with, along with brass covered in lube and stuck cases. The batch of cases I've just processed are on their fifteenth reload and are still .005 under max. with a random sample of ten showing only .003" extreme spread on length. These cases got neck annealed on their tenth reload.

I should really complete loading most of my ammo on the progressive but I still do too much experimentation to make it worth the bother of swapping things around.

[Poygan]

I don't recall the exact figures but lubing the inside of the .223 case necks significantly reduced the stretching.

[garandsrus]

Dave,

Unless you buy already processed .223 brass, most once fired mil surplus brass will need to be trimmed when you get it!

You can buy fully prepped (sized, trimmed, crimp removed) brass from TopBrass (http://secure.cartsvr.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=2317386&showprevnext=1) for $58.99/1000 which includes shipping.

John

[azrednek]

I don't recall the exact figures but lubing the inside of the .223 case necks significantly reduced the stretching.

They're on the pricey side but the carbide expander button made by Hornady for their own or RCBS sizing dies is the cat's meow for doing 223. I don't honestly know iif it reduces the neck streach but sure makes the sizing upstroke go as slick as snot. Just like using lube on carbide dies on pistol cases a dab of lube goes a long way. I might lube the inside of a neck on every 20th case.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Gentlemen,

Several great ideas in the bunch, please keep them coming. I knew this was the right forum to ask innovative questions.

garandsrus,

thank you for the brass link, dang, that's an awesome price on processed ready to load brass. Gotta love it. I still have 3000 once fired milsurp cases I gotta process though, dang it. Wonder if they'd be willing to exchange for me.

Dave

[Ken O]

I'm a fan of the RCBS X-die. I have one in .223, 260 Rem, and 30'06. The 223 doesn't streach like the other calibers do, but it holds all to "trim to" specs if you have it adjusted right. I use these in competition.
You cant go wrong with this die, if you dont want to use the "X feature" just back it out some, and you have a regular size die.
I have used Top Brass processed brass and had good luck with them. Also BrassmanBrass (http://www.brassmanbrass.com/inventory-001.html) once fired. I went with the Winchester instead of the Lake City so I didnt have to de-crimp the primer, and it was the same price. I bought a few thousand last year and the price was $26 a thousand, I see it has gone up quite a bit.

[mike in co]

its been said once....dump the pull thur expander button!

if you are gonna get new dies get a bushing die....

redding pefered,

i load small batches for some competition, but for three gun i bulk load.
for cmp/dcm i bulk load for short range and small lots for 600yds.


i have not done much 223 brass trimming..only my br stuff.

have measured some, and done chamber measurements.....
i just dont worry with the conservative case length and the lawyer inspired chambers.....

you can resize quicker on a progressive....you only handle the brass going in, it dumps it out for you....
my 223 bulk is a lee universal decapper and a redding fl bushing die in a dillon 550b.....no powder/no primers......lube the cases LIGHTLY and feed them thru.
clean.....wash or tumble your choice
hand prime/inspect each case or inspect as you feed them into the dillon, prime in sta 1, powder in sta 2, seat in station 3.....no crimp....

my opinion....doing batches thru several steps will produce better ammo....you are not trying to do everything at once.....i often prep 1000-2000 pcs at a time.
similar process for bulk ammo

the only caution i see of the top of my head is size to fit.( if only one gun .002/003 under the chamber will do fine. DO NOT FOLLOW TH E MANUFACURES INSTRUCTIONS TO SET YOUR DIE DOWN TO THE SHELL HOLDER.this is the best way to trash your brass.
and
then do check the lenght every now and then....
( all the above assumes no crimp......if you crimp trim every time to ensure a uniform crimp other wise your bullets could go anywhere.)
( if you have multiple guns, you can segregate brass and size for each, or sized till the brass fits both.)

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I should ante up and say I'll be loading for two rifles, one of which is an M4 clone I'm building (for me) and one is a RRA National Match fully tricked out (for my son who's about to graduate college and has good eyes to compete CMP matches with) with a .223 Wylde chamber.

The plan is to load a large batch of cartridges for one gun at a time, then load a batch for the other. I'll probably load the 600 yard cartridges single stage for the National Match gun. Though since he's got my single stage and shows no inclination to return it, he'll probably be reloading those for himself (along with paying for it) and it won't be a problem for me. :-D

Lots of good ideas here. I'm going to have to cut and paste these to a word document and print it out. I appreciate the good information.

Dave

[Herb in Pa]

The expander button is not the problem, it does not stretch the case. The case stretches due to the fact that the case body is being reduced back to spec and the brass has to flow somewhere. The RCBS X die prevents this by having a step in the decapping stem that prevents the brass from moving forward. They do work!

[Larry Gibson]

The expander button is not the problem, it does not stretch the case. The case stretches due to the fact that the case body is being reduced back to spec and the brass has to flow somewhere. The RCBS X die prevents this by having a step in the decapping stem that prevents the brass from moving forward. They do work!

Dave

Herb is correct. Your initial loading concept is spot on. However I prefer to inspect each case prior to loading. You'd be surprised how much stuff stays inside cases during handling/cleaning, etc. Also I prefer to not use lubed cases during loading on the Dillon 550B. I clean the cases first then lube/size on single stage with X-die then clean lube off (tumbler). Primer pockets are cleaned and case inspected. On the Dillon I have a neck sizer in station 1 and the loading goes quite fast. It really doesn't take all that long and I end up with quality ammo that does not malfunction or misfire. It only seems to take longer with those initial steps up front but when you consider clearing problems on the progressive (dented necks, plugged flash holes, grit inside the cases, etc), cleaning the lube of after loading and inspecting the loaded product the time spent is pretty much the same. With my method I save a lot of frustration because I don't have any problems at the loading machine.

Larry Gibson

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Herb and Larry,

Thank you for those additional piece of information. I think I'm going to go with a Lee Deluxe four die set and an X-die to minimize trimming.

Here's what I'm thinking now:

1. Lee full length sizer in a Hornady LnL bushing - Install this on a Lee Classic Cast single stage with a Hornady adapter kit for the LnL bushing or my Hornady LnL progressive . I'll take the three thousand once fired 5.56 cases I currently have, clean them and full length resize them, performing only the resizing operation. This will give me a "stock" of brass.

2. I'll trim them using my RCBS automated trimmer with the .223 trim and bevel head installed. I'll clean up the primer pockets and get them ready to reload, weigh, sort by year/lot/brand and all that good stuff. Label and store what I don't plan to load.

3. Next, I'll progressive load these cases using a Lee Neck sizer die in station 1 of my progressive. Then store and shoot as desired.

4. After shooting all 3000, I'll clean the brass and resize again, this time using an RCBS X-die mounted in a Hornady LnL bushing, then mounted by itself in the Hornady LnL.

5. Repeat the reloading process on the Hornady LnL with the neck sizer die in station 1. Cycle through all 3000 keeping the storage cases marked as to the number of reloads the batches have had.

6. Repeat above process multiple times, until inspection says it's time to ditch cases, anneal, etc.

Dave

[Larry Gibson]

Dave

With once fired military cases that have been fired in M16/ARs I find that triming isn't necessary if the initial sizing is done in the X-Die. Since the X-die stops case lengthening there is no need to trim to minimum length.

I set it up this way;

Size a case in the X-Die with the stem backed off.
Mic the OAL of the sized case, If at or below max OAL then it is good.
If over max OAL then trim to max OAL.
Run case back into X-Die and adjust the stem as per directions.
Size a couple other cases to make sure they do not exceed the OAL.
If not then drive on with the rest of the 3,000 cases.

Saves a lot of un needed triming.

BTW; I use the Lee Factory Crimp die also.

Larry Gibson