Leading in the throat

[BoolitSchuuter]

Need some advice. I've been shooting Lee 452-230-TC cast in straight WW. Sized and lubed at .452 with 5 grains of bullseye. Shot in a PT1911 which slugs at .451. This load is supposed to be 850 fps, but it tests at 950 fps. The problem is that after 100 rounds or so, :coffeecom this load is leading up in the throat. Not excessive, but enough to cause me some concern. This load is very accurate for me, so do I need to make my boolits harder or softer?

[44man]

Need some advice. I've been shooting Lee 452-230-TC cast in straight WW. Sized and lubed at .452 with 5 grains of bullseye. Shot in a PT1911 which slugs at .451. This load is supposed to be 850 fps, but it tests at 950 fps. The problem is that after 100 rounds or so, :coffeecom this load is leading up in the throat. Not excessive, but enough to cause me some concern. This load is very accurate for me, so do I need to make my boolits harder or softer?
Try two things, one at a time. First water drop and age harden the boolits.
Next match your accurate velocity with a slower powder.
That is a hot load for Bullseye and I bet you are skidding the rifling. Try Unique or Blue Dot.

[BoolitSchuuter]

I do water drop them, I didn't think to mention that. Any recommendations on a slower powder?

[thegreatdane]

Unique, Power Pistol, 231/HP-38 to name a few.

[pmer]

I am having noob issues here. I thought a good mix for 45 ACP would be 1/2 WW and 1/2 pure lead because of the lower pressures compared to a .44 mag. I would'nt thought a slower powder would help this.

[Bass Ackward]

That 5 gr BE load is the classic of classics. So it ain't the powder that is the problem.

Too hard for the diameter and the quality of your lube. IMO. At least in my guns anyway.

[Larry Gibson]

"Lubed" with what? That would be my 1st concern as yours is a classic load as mentioned and should not give any appreciable leading. I also would not harden the bullets. I would add 2% tin though.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

I had a similar problem with carnuba red in my 1911. I have some loaded the exact same except they are lubed with Felix lube. Will see if they do better.
My 1911 does not lead with the 230 TV but does with the 200 swc. Makes me wonder if my lube/load with the 230 tc is on the verge of leading.

Brad

[Bass Ackward]

I had a similar problem with carnuba red in my 1911. I have some loaded the exact same except they are lubed with Felix lube. Will see if they do better.
My 1911 does not lead with the 230 TV but does with the 200 swc. Makes me wonder if my lube/load with the 230 tc is on the verge of leading.

Brad


There is a fun way to find out? :grin:

[randyrat]

I don't care what kind of lube your using it's a hot load for a 230 gr boolit and lead.
You to have EVERYTHING perfect to shoot that load and not get some leading. Although, a good lube will cover up some problems

Maybe try 4.8 or a bit less grains of BE and your leading will stop.

"When everything is perfect"; Barrel is perfect, no crimping the boolit (crimping and sizing down the boolit) and a bunch of other things.

[btroj]

There is a fun way to find out? :grin:

That is what I plan to do! Why do people hate testing so much? I enjoy it, heck, it is shooting after all!

Randyrat, I am using nowhere near that hot a load. I used 4.7 to 5.2 gr of HP38. Got no lead with the 230 but did with the 200. Seems odd to me as the two Lee bullets have such a similar profile other than nose.

I have vowed to not stop testing until I figure out what this darn pistol wants. If all else fails I will wait for my Mihec HG 68 clone with a flat base. Might not be the answer but it sure won't hurt.

[BoolitSchuuter]

"Lubed" with what? That would be my 1st concern as yours is a classic load as mentioned and should not give any appreciable leading. I also would not harden the bullets. I would add 2% tin though.

Larry Gibson

Wish I could tell you what the lube is. It came with the lubrisizer when I bought it used. I can tell you it is yellow, medium soft and doesn't need much heat to soften when lubing. It does work well with my 9mm and 357 handloads.

[randyrat]

No I'm talking about boolitSchuuter"s 5 grains of Bullseye under a 230 gr lead is a Hot load...At the least a stout load like that is going to bring on leading if it isn't all perfect

[btroj]

A hot load always pushes everything to the max. Nothing more demanding than a top end load with cast.

[randyrat]

A hot load always pushes everything to the max. Nothing more demanding than a top end load with cast.
My only point is I can't find a cast bullet load that goes to 5 grains of Bullseye with a 230 gr lead bullet. I've seen 4.8 but it says MAX. I just he is pushing the load with HIS gun too hard,,,ain't gonna work. I haven't checked all the books , but some of mine says; too many beans in that load. I've used 4 grains with lots of luck and accuracy, hundreds and hundreds with no leading. Don't mean to be a stick in the mud or argue about it.

[RobS]

B.E. of 5 grains may be a classic load, however it doesn not come with a 950 fps price tag. The combination is yielding more pressures and is why the velocities are higher. Take the powder charge down to yield 850 fps and you'll be there.

[btroj]

I am agreeing entirely with you Randy.
Hotrod ding any gun is best left to a person with lots of experience. Even then it can be scary.
A new shooter using a lube he doesn't know is not in a place to hotels anything. I would step down to a low level or mild load and get the hang of things. Once you have gotten a low level load to work well then you can try stepping things up.

I think it was Bass who likes to say start low and go slow. This is a good time to remember the value in that advice.

Brad

[44man]

That is what I plan to do! Why do people hate testing so much? I enjoy it, heck, it is shooting after all!

Randyrat, I am using nowhere near that hot a load. I used 4.7 to 5.2 gr of HP38. Got no lead with the 230 but did with the 200. Seems odd to me as the two Lee bullets have such a similar profile other than nose.

I have vowed to not stop testing until I figure out what this darn pistol wants. If all else fails I will wait for my Mihec HG 68 clone with a flat base. Might not be the answer but it sure won't hurt.
The lighter boolit leads the bore because it is forced to velocity too fast and is skidding more. Soften it more and it will skid more.
I will never understand how some think a softer boolit will prevent that. Softer lead needs less initial pressure.
I am willing to bet a jacketed shoots great, then some try to duplicate it with a putty ball! :violin:

[BoolitSchuuter]

First off, Thanks for all the input!!:)
I didn't think this would be a hot load. I checked several sources, it was on the top end but all quoted velocities were 800 to 850 fps. As stated in an earlier post it could be hot for this gun. The one point I didn't see debated was whether the bullet was too hard. My first step will be to reduce my load to 4.5 gr and work back up if accuracy suffers.

What about a softer alloy? 50/50 (Pb/WW) ? :coffeecom

[btroj]

I have increased the hardness to way beyond what I shoot in any other handgun. It did not lead with the heavier bullet using range scrap. I am now using ww equiv water dropped. Bullets are way harder than what I was using for the 230 gr bullet. Makes me think I need more than just a harder bullet. I have also run the lighter bullet with the minimum load listed by Hodgdon so it is low pressure. It still leads so it can't be hardness and pressure alone.
brad

[Bass Ackward]

BoolitSchuuter


The reason I do try hardness difference is because I DON'T know what is happening in that bore. I can try logic, (what I think is happening) but that is at best 50/50 gamble for me.

Bottom line is that sometimes a softer bullet can get through a problem faster that seems to produce less pressure on the base than a rock hard bullet. If that is even the right theory. Otherwise, why WOULD a soft bullet shoot better than a hard bullet ever? And at times they do for what ever the reason.

So I vary hardness and diameter and let Professors Gun and Target tell me what works.

Then theorize why. OR not, depending on how important it is to me.

Look, (and this is a BIG problem for a lot of folks on this board) it takes longer to think up and then type your question, wait for the 1500 responses that come in, pick something that seems logical and then try it in a lot of situations. Cause who says the majority are going to guess the correct solution for you?

Those people can test for themselves and have had their answer already. I this case, your problem occurs at 100 rounds, so it is expensive to launch THAT many for testing results.

Coarse you could carry a rod with a brush on it and brush every so often before you get to 100 rounds till the gun cleans up and stops leading without doing anything probably. I go the lazy route for awhile anyway if I don't want the cost for the test.

[btroj]

I will be testing the Felix lubed bullets this afternoon. This will at least allow me to determine if it was a lube issue.
I have tried going harder than range scrap with my bullets but did. Or think of going softer. After seeing what Bass got with soft in a revolver it has made me think that is a logical next step.

When testing, which I do lots of, I try to keep away from preconceived notions of what will work.I start with the norm for my shooting and go from there. Every mow and then o get a result that was unexpected, this is what keeps me going.

I agree entirely about trying to get all the answers via reading rather than testing. Only my gun knows what it wants, it is up to me to discover what it is. I view this as an adventure rather than as a chore. I use this forum as a place to get ideas I may not have though of myself rather than as a source of hard fact. When I see things that others are trying it allows me to think outside of my box.

Thanks for the words of wisdom Bass. You are helping me to push my own envelope.

Brad

[MtGun44]

Try softer, and a 'known good' lube.

Bill

[btroj]

Will need to wait til morning to clean the 1911 but based upon the target at 25 yards the lune made a big difference. Group was much smaller.

[geargnasher]

I see a problem. Taking a "5-grain classic BE load" and saying that it can't be the problem because it has proven good in 18 million other 1911s even though it's running 100 fps over what it's supposed to in this one particular gun and discounting it as a problem is a problem. Make sense?

Try 5.5 grains, or as has been said enough to duplicate the velocities of the 5.0 grain load in this gun with these components and see if the problem doesn't go away. If it does, make the boolits harder, larger, or use a slower powder. My preference would be Unique or HS6, but Red Dot or Clays might make enough difference to solve the problem and still maintain 850 fps safely. Maybe. You'll have to work up and figure it out on your own.

Gear

[Bass Ackward]

People never consider diameter and hardness as I tried to point out a week ago.

In this case, this fella is having trouble with his sizer (gun) throwing more pressure because the hardness and diameter transitioning to groove diameter are over coming the film strength of his lube. Thus his velocity.

Once the surface and angle of the throat of THAT gun wear / polish enough to speed the sizing / engraving process at the worst temperatures he is going to shoot, this will lessen the resistance so that the film strength of the lube prevents metal to metal. (galling)

Seal is obtained at groove diameter. Going one caliber up won't improve seal. It may improve seal so that it can be established after the bullet has been deformed, but seal is seal. What really increases is the force required to enter the bore. (size) (and GUN WEAR)

The gun can handle it within SAAMI limits, the lube / hardness at some point can't so you lead.

All one has to do is size rock hard bullets to understand what they are creating. The smaller the cartridge case, the more dramatic the load change to higher pressure and velocity. The transition force may require a monster lube that may not exist.

Sizing on your own press can show this very clearly. Sizing a 357 by .002 that is 8 BHN is easy and you can feel it. Sizing 30 BHN is slightly more difficult. Step up to 45 caliber and sizing a WDWW rock hard bullet by .002 and you might break your press before you get it done. Put some lube on it and it gets easier. But the lube has to prevent metal to metal at impact velocities which will lessen as the gun wears. (finish and angle improve to lesson this force)

But THIS is where the forcing cone leading (spitting) and that long streak leading begins as the friction of the sizing fights the rotational force of the rifling And you get manufactured stripping. So you can actually stop stripping by going softer sometimes. This can make or break a bullet design, hardness, diameter, lube combination. Remember, everything works (or fails) on the same team. Team Load.

The slower I want to go, the softer I want to be and I can size larger to prevent deformation and lube loss. So I widen my usable working window for that hardness. The faster I want to go, the harder I want to be and the smaller I need to be in diameter in relation without having to go to a better or higher viscosity lube and I have to run higher pressures to get the harder bullet to seal before I loose all my lube. And going to bore size may cause a lube on the bullet problem that requires a GC to over come if the guns dimensions are too far off.

This is why diameter change can make a huge difference. Lube change too. Hardness change as well. Powder speed to a slower powder can do wonders. It's just how you want to change to prevent lube break down and metal to metal. But everything has limits and you can't run IMR 4831 in a 45 ACP, so change is inevitable.

Once you lead in this area, lead has a good chance of building creating a false constriction which is no different than a real constriction and you get manufactured gas cutting. You can tell by adding some LLA over your normal lube. If the gun shoots better, then it is not broken in for the size / design / hardness/ velocity / powder speed combination you are trying to force on it and something must be changed or the gun fire lapped to accept your stubbornness / desires. Size smaller (still staying above bore) until the difference between your ammo with LLA performs the same or worse than just your normal lubed slugs and you are at the right combo for that load in THAT gun and the design works. Praise be to the mold maker! :grin:

Some changes are more expensive than others. (molds and sizers) Some changes are more of a PIA than others. (lube / hardness) Some changes are more forgiving than others. (slower powders) And some changes result in better long term flexibility so that you can do more things wrong. (fire lapping the bore so that the bore is closer to throat diameter if you go far enough for THAT gun, stop short and you hate fire lapping cause the problem could still be there)

It all interacts together with the class taught by Professor Gun. Coach LLA let's you cheat on his tests to get a passing grade so you can play on the team. Problems with the line (nose) cause problems for the back. (base) So generally for me, I go big and soft to seal at low pressures and velocities then go smaller the faster I want to go till the gun wears in enough that it just don't matter.

Then you pick up another gun. :grin: Understanding this transitional relationship gives you the big picture view as defined by your gun. This enables you to get passed the hard vs soft, semi wadcutter vs olgival, ACME Super Dooper Lube for me, and only slow powders for lead stereotypes to improve your shooting success / enjoyment at what ever velocity you want to run and get accuracy.

Some of us just love the pain though so we can continue to post. :grin:

[btroj]

Ok, so in case I got much less leading by changing the lube. Accuracy was better too.
My proposed testing will look AR three factors.

Harder vs softer. Not going to say hard or soft as I don't plan to aim for a specific BHN.

Size diameter. I have been using .452. Need to get a .451 sizer to see if smaller works better.

The lube will remain a wild card as I don't want to play arou d too much with various lubes. Hardness and size diameter are much easier to change than lube is. I could finger lube and might try that if I have to but really don't like changing lube in the sizer.

Anything within reason I am leaving out? I figure that I know what hard and .452 gives but plan to wait for a warm up so I can go outdoors and test all 4 combinations in one day. I will clean barrel in between each load combo. I plan to use a reasonable powder charge, something from the middle of the range for the powder I pian to use which is HP38. Plan is to go with 5 gr, have shot higher and lower with no problems.

Brad

[Bass Ackward]

Ok, so in case I got much less leading by changing the lube. Accuracy was better too.
My proposed testing will look AR three factors.

Harder vs softer. Not going to say hard or soft as I don't plan to aim for a specific BHN.

Size diameter. I have been using .452. Need to get a .451 sizer to see if smaller works better.

The lube will remain a wild card as I don't want to play arou d too much with various lubes. Hardness and size diameter are much easier to change than lube is. I could finger lube and might try that if I have to but really don't like changing lube in the sizer.

Anything within reason I am leaving out? I figure that I know what hard and .452 gives but plan to wait for a warm up so I can go outdoors and test all 4 combinations in one day. I will clean barrel in between each load combo. I plan to use a reasonable powder charge, something from the middle of the range for the powder I pian to use which is HP38. Plan is to go with 5 gr, have shot higher and lower with no problems.

Brad


Brad,

This has to be taken in context and was written in general to who could benefit from it.

Since you are only .001 over bore diameter, maybe that isn't the greatest area of change too change.

You still need alignment into the bore, so you just have to try if that is what you want to do.

Why not try the LLA trick and see if accuracy gets better or worse. You may be already at the peak accuracy level with THAT powder and THAT bullet design combination.

Problem is: how do you know for sure unless you try. :grin:

[Piedmont]

Something to consider: 5.0 of Bullseye is a standard 230 grain charge, though a full one. Your TC bullet probably seats deeper than a round nose. In effect this will make your load heavier. Unless you have some power factor to meet, why not back off the charge until you get 850 fps? That is what the pistol was made for, a 230 grain at around 850 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

Wish I could tell you what the lube is. It came with the lubrisizer when I bought it used. I can tell you it is yellow, medium soft and doesn't need much heat to soften when lubing. It does work well with my 9mm and 357 handloads.

Suggest you clean it out and go with a known product (I suggest Javelina, Lars BAC or his NRA 50/50 lube) before changing anything else. If I was home I could show you numerous references with 5 gr Bullseye listed for a 230 cast and jacketed bullet. It is the "classic" load and I believe it was the military load at one time. I also concure that the 950 fps is quite high. Even a good or bad lube would not make that much difference. I suggest checking the load to make sure it is indeed 5 gr. Velocity should be 800 to 850 fps depending on bullet, barrel, etc.

Larry Gibson

[garym1a2]

I get better results in my 1911 Kimber with 452 sizer than I did with the 451 sizer.
I have tried 4.0, 4.2 and 4.5 grains of Bullseye and get 880fps with the 200swc with 4.5 grains.

With 4.2 grains I get abour 830fps.

With 4.0 I got too much variation.

My most consistant load was the 4.5 grains but I selected the 4.2 load as it was still major and recovery was faster. Accuracy was still decent.

[RobS]

Whatever the variables are the results are clearly there; leading in the throat and a much higher velocity than expected. Use the same powder, don't use the same powder, use a harder boolit, use a softer boolit, change lubes, or whatever else one wants to throw at the equation and it will come down to finding a combination that works all together. The combination the OP has is simply not yielding a velocity of a common 5 grain "classic" B.E. load. Without changing anything other than dropping the powder charge to yield velocities in the 800-850 fps range I can imagine the results will come in with improvements.

Pressures and velocities are fairly linear with a given powder in regards to the same boolit/lube combo; in simple terms if all else is equal the more powder used equates to higer velocities and increases in pressures. The rate of pressures increased per grain or tenths of a grain can change drastically depending on the powder characteristics in itself though. Higher energy powders can reach peak pressure limits for a cartridge quickly and then multiply rapidly with the slightest increase of powder. 5 grains of B.E. yielding 950 fps is pushing the pressures up past the typical B.E. load (something we all will agree on) and doing so very abruptly with such a high energy powder can be of concern. This alone would make me a bit uneasy as a reloader. Additoinally these sudden pressures with a powder such as B.E. places a lot of stress right out of the gate on the boolit as it makes its way into the bore. This very likely could make the boolit skid the lands resulting in the leading no matter if a boolit is 20 BHN or whatever hardness.

[44magLeo]

I haven't worked with a 45 much . I have worked with several 44's.
On the hardness If the bullet is to hard it won't swell up and completely seal the bore and this lets chamber pressure and heat get by the bullet. This melts the bullet in the bore.
A softer bullet will swell up and better seal the bore and the pressure and heat stay behind the bullet.
I found this in the 44's. I cast the Lyman 429421 In a wcww's they worked great with massive loads of 2400 behind them. Not sure on velocity but loads at 23 grs shot 1/2 or better groups at 25 yards, no leading. Case fell out the chambers with just a liight push on the ejector. Didn't shoot many that way, hurt my hands. Finally settled on 21 grs.
The same boolit ahead of 8.5 grs of Unique would lead much worse. If I mixed the ww's 50/50 with lead and air cooled them, they wouldn't lead up the barrel. Much more fun to shoot.
Both the heavy load and the light load shot less than an inch at 25 yds
The harder the bullet, the harder the kick in the butt they need to swell up and seal the bore. In a 45 I don't think you can get enough powder in the case to do that. Well, not and keep the gun in one piece.
On the 5 gr load of Bullseye I imght try a bit less, 4.5 grs, a softer boolit and shoot for the 800-850 fps range.
Thats my 2 cents worth.