Ruger Super Blackhawk question

[Saint]

I just picked up a new in box Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 magnum and I got to the range for the first time today. I was amazed how accurate it was for all of the recoil, also it had an impressive muzzle blast, every shot knocked the spent cases on the concrete floor forward a few inches. Anyway on to the question, I was shooting Winchester white box .44 mag and I noticed that the barrel was heating up really fast, I have little experience with high caliber handguns but with my Hi-Point C9 9mm I can't shoot it fast enough to heat up the barrel so the question is how hot is too hot and how long should it take to get there? In all I spent about an hour at the range and only got 50 rounds through it because I kept having to stop to wait for the barrel to cool down. It got uncomfortably hot but never hot enough that I couldn't wrap my hand around the barrel and leave it there however it would not have been comfortable.

[Dale53]

I have shot as many as 200 full power reloads in my Super Black Hawk, S&W Model 29, and Redhawk in a day without issue. Yes, they do get a bit warm, but not to worry....

Understand, that is not my "norm" but I have done it. Nearly all of my shooting has been done with my own cast bullets and full or nearly full loads of H110/296 powder.

Dale53

[Southern Man]

My rule of thumb is , if I can't hold my thumb on the bbl. it's too hot.
50 or 75 rounds per hour should'nt hurt it , as long as you don't do it 8 hours a day 7 days a week.
Southern Man

[fecmech]

Jacketed ammo will heat barrels quicker I believe due to the friction coefficient of copper vs lead, also some powders such as Hodgdon Lil Gun even with lead. I noticed that this summer with my .357 mag rifle, 10 rds of Lil Gun was noticeably hotter than 10 with wc820.

[Saint]

Well I'm only shooting factory ammo for the brass at the moment, I will be loading 240grain Horny JHP with 2400 and we will see how that goes, I may also load up some 44 specials with some Unique.

[Dennis Eugene]

shoot your handgun until you can barely touch the barrel you won't hurt it. Dennis

[Saint]

Thanks for the replies, another question on the same handgun. I have been reloading for 9mm and 30-06 for a while now and one of the tests commonly used to determine if you are running too hot of a load is to look for flattened primers. I just got through prepping the 50 spent cases and every single one had a flattened primer. Also I took a look at the factory test round that was included with the gun and I noticed it also had a flattened primer. Is this normal for a .44mag?

[Lloyd Smale]

heck i know ive ran 500 rounds through the same handgun in one day many times. Only time i worry at all about how hot a handgun is getting is if im shooting cast in a gun that tends to lead but for the most part those guns are weeded out of the collection anyway. Only other consern is if im loading slow burning ball powders especially with jacketed bullets. the heat from them can cause forcing cone wear in short order. You want to see hot. Load some 240 jacketed in a 44 using a top end load of lilgun. Youll see in short order why it has a reputation for burning out forcing cones.

[Bret4207]

The old "flattened primer as a pressure indicator" has been recognized as a very crude pressure indicator at best for some time. Different brands of primers flatten at different pressures, every chamber is a bit different than the others and every gun is different altogether than another. In full power 44 mag loads I almost expect a slightly to moderately flattened primer. When you get completely flat primers, when they start to flow, the you have some issues. But with what you are doing, with factory loads, just use what you observe as a maximum point of reference.

[ebner glocken]

I've never overheated a handgun barrel enough that it reduced accuracy when fired later. The only handgun that I own that it has even been a thought is a FN 5.7x28, that thing gets HOT in a hurry.

Ebner

[44man]

Nobody knows the powder in those factory loads.
I have shot the .44 since 1956 and used it for IHMSA with an 80 target match with 296 powder. Never got too hot. You will not harm the gun.
But 12 shots with Lil-Gun in a .357 turned the barrel into a soldering iron! :cry: I could not touch it.

[44man]

The old "flattened primer as a pressure indicator" has been recognized as a very crude pressure indicator at best for some time. Different brands of primers flatten at different pressures, every chamber is a bit different than the others and every gun is different altogether than another. In full power 44 mag loads I almost expect a slightly to moderately flattened primer. When you get completely flat primers, when they start to flow, the you have some issues. But with what you are doing, with factory loads, just use what you observe as a maximum point of reference.
True! Sticky cases mean you have gone too far and some of those did not have flat primers.
Most moderate loads in the .44 can have some flat primers and a lot has to do with head space. The primer can back out a little, then get forced back in.

[Saint]

Got out to the range again and got another 100 rounds through it, tried some reloads running 17.4 grains of 2400 behind a Hornady 240 JHP. This was the minimum load listed in the manual and I was surprised by the recoil. I loaded every other cylinder with a factory Winchester white box 240 and one of my loads and my loads kicked much harder even at the lowest powder weight. So far so good though, this has quickly become my favorite gun. Nothing like the BOOOOOOOM of a 44 mag, definitely an attention getter. I managed to clear half the range because the thing was just too much for nearby people.

[bigboredad]

17.4 and 2400 kicking harder than factory? That sounds odd I've used that a lot and was very pleased at the mild recoil. Are you sure you new which was which? I've done that before and it's easy to get confused. In fact that load with the lee 240gr. round nose is scary accurate. A good thumper is a 335 gr. wfn and 18.5 grains of 2400. I just picked up that mold and haven't had a chance to do much with it yet

[Snyd]

Welcome to your bigbore!

[45r]

I've always got better accuracy with 296/H-110 in 44mag,2400 works good with 158GC loads in 357mag.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

If you should like to shoot a moderate round, 8.5 - 9.0 Unique and a cast 240/250 semi-wadcutter in a magnum case is a fun load to shoot. The load is also a good 50yd whitetail "knocker downer". Enjoy.....

Mike

[BackWoods Billy]

Just keep an eye on the forcing cone and have a good time.17.0 g of 2400 and a 250 swc is a nice target load. IF you have stock grips and want to go hotter,a pair of gloves are nice.

[Saint]

Thanks for all the feedback, its been really helpful. I ended up having to replace the grips with a Hogue Monogrip, I couldn't take the trigger guard slamming me every shot but the Hogue is a night and day difference. I just picked up a box of Bumblebee 240 SWCBB and I am going to start working a load up with it starting with 17 grains of the 2400. This seems to be a common starting load for this bullet in a 44 mag but it does concern me that I cant find any remotely similar load data in any of my manuals and this seems pretty hot for a cast bullet. Anyone have any feedback on that?

[Dale53]

The 4th Edition Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists a load of 20.6 grs of 2400 as maximum with the Lyman 429421 Keith bullet. Pressure is 37,200 psi.

I have shot in the neighborhood of 10,000 rounds of .44 Magnum with 23.0-24.0 grs of H110 with the same design bullet (25.0 grs is considered maximum). I have taken several deer with those loads (from 10 yards to 85 yards).

Dale53

[BackWoods Billy]

That's not hot in a SBH. Take a look at this..It will help..
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun

Them grip do help a lot...

[Saint]

Alright I am now comfortable with the amount of powder but here is the next question. If i seat these to the recommended depth for the 250gr Keith then the bullets do not seat to the cannelure, the recommended OAL is 1.70 however if I load 20gr of 2400 and seat to the cannelure it gives me an OAL of 1.61 but if I shake the round I can hear loose powder inside. As I understand it the reason for the recommended OAL is to avoid the powder being compressed as this increases pressures. I think that it would be safe to load these to 1.61 OAL and I even noticed that one load on BackWoods Billy's link showed a lead bullet seated to 1.6. Would anyone here disagree that as long as I know that the charge is not compressed than I am probably safe seating these to the cannelure?

[Dale53]

Saint;
The expected, and proper, seating depth is to seat to crimp normally in the crimp groove.

The only time you will want to deviate from this is when your revolver's cylinder is not long enough to allow seating at that depth (an example is that of the Lyman 358429 (.38 Special/.357 Magnum bullet loaded in magnum cases for the S&W Model 27). In those cases, you will have to seat deeper than intended to be able to use them. However, when seated to crimp over the front band in those isolated cases, you MUST reduce the powder charge. That does NOT apply in your case as the Super Black Hawk has a cylinder length that allows you to seat and crimp normally.

Dale53

[44man]

Saint;
The expected, and proper, seating depth is to seat to crimp normally in the crimp groove.

The only time you will want to deviate from this is when your revolver's cylinder is not long enough to allow seating at that depth (an example is that of the Lyman 358429 (.38 Special/.357 Magnum bullet loaded in magnum cases for the S&W Model 27). In those cases, you will have to seat deeper than intended to be able to use them. However, when seated to crimp over the front band in those isolated cases, you MUST reduce the powder charge. That does NOT apply in your case as the Super Black Hawk has a cylinder length that allows you to seat and crimp normally.

Dale53
Dale has told you all you need to know!

[Saint]

Thanks again for all the great info, I just got back from the range after putting a hundred reloads through the SBH. I ran the 240gr SWCBB with 19gr of 2400 and I was very impressed, this was much more accurate than I had expected and it blew the jacketed ammo out of the water on accuracy, the difference was amazing. Another odd thing though that I noticed was with some of the 240gr JHP reloads I shot. I had also loaded them with 19gr of 2400 but one thing that concerned me was the amount of flames coming out from between the cylinder and forcing cone. The SWCBB had the same charge but did not have any flash at all. Even the Winchester white box I shot had very minimal flash even though it was noticeably hotter. Any ideas why the JHP would do this with the same charge?

[Geraldo]

My rule of thumb is , if I can't hold my thumb on the bbl. it's too hot.
50 or 75 rounds per hour should'nt hurt it , as long as you don't do it 8 hours a day 7 days a week.
Southern Man

50 to 75 rounds per hour? That's an average of around one round per minute :shock:

[Saint]

New question on this gun. I have so far put about 200 .429 SWCBB through this thing and last night I spent an hour scrubbing lead out of the barrel. It was bad enough that the leading was nearly the same depth of the lands. I also noticed that some of the throats had lead in them that looked like it had been melted and then cooled in the throats. It seems that the bullets are getting pulverized by the charge. Is this normal or do I need to back down my charge? I am currently running 19.2 grains of 2400.

[saz]

Welcome to an addiction that knows no cure!!!!!

[Dale53]

Those of us who cast our own bullets have learned that slugging the cylinder throats and sizing the bullets to the throats pretty much solve the leading problem. In fact, I have not run a brass brush through my bores for years. I clean them every 300-500 rounds whether they need it or not. It is only necessary to use a good powder solvent (I use home made Ed's Red) and cloth patches.

I get NO leading in my revolvers. My bullet alloy is WW+2% tin. I may use a bit harder with magnum loads but seldom harder than Lyman #2. I ALWAYS size to the throats. Super hard, undersize bullets nearly guarantee leading. Properly sized bullets seldom lead what ever the hardness.

However, for whatever reason, many .45 Colt cylinder throats are actually undersized. In those cases, the best way to handle the cylinder throats is to ream them (or have them reamed) to a proper size (.4525") then size the bullets to the throats for accurate, lead free shooting.

For your .44 Magnum, your load is NOT too heavy. You almost certainly have undersize bullets. Undersize bullets gas cut badly leading cylinder throats as well as the barrel.

Dale53

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Your 17 gr. of 2400 is a light load. I started with 18grs, and went all the way up to 24grs. in load development. using the 250 gr. gc Lyman swc.
Shoot mostly 23 grs. now.

I have shot 100 rounds a day often. Once 200 rounds.
But last year I switched to 54 pistol & 45 rifle.
I am hunting focused.
So I shoot 5 rounds rifle , set it down, then 6 rounds pistol.
3 times standing,
3 times knelling,
3 times sitting,
Almost every day the last 2 summers.
You:Fire::Fire: see I like to shoot.

[Saint]

When slugging should I start at the forcing cone or go through the barrel? I have some pure lead 45 conicals I will probably use since im too cheap to buy slugging alloy. Also which direction should I go on the cylinder to slug it?

[Saint]

Just got done slugging the barrel. The projectile went in at exactly .429, after passing through the barrel it cam out .428. On the throats the projectile was able to drop through with just by its own weight. Is this where i should be or do i want to try a .430 bullet. BTW this was measured by micrometer in case anyone would like to know.

[JesterGrin_1]

You wish to have the the bullet sized so that you can push it through the throats with just a bit of pressure. Or if you can measure your throats make the bullet the same size as the throat. But if you are going to slug the throats slug all six. Then size the bullet to the smallest throat.

[JesterGrin_1]

Dale gave the same info here. :).


Those of us who cast our own bullets have learned that slugging the cylinder throats and sizing the bullets to the throats pretty much solve the leading problem. In fact, I have not run a brass brush through my bores for years. I clean them every 300-500 rounds whether they need it or not. It is only necessary to use a good powder solvent (I use home made Ed's Red) and cloth patches.



Dale53

[BackWoods Billy]

HI,
Your 17 gr. of 2400 is a light load. I started with 18grs, and went all the way up to 24grs. in load development. using the 250 gr. gc Lyman swc.
Shoot mostly 23 grs. now.

I have shot 100 rounds a day often. Once 200 rounds.
But last year I switched to 54 pistol & 45 rifle.
I am hunting focused.
So I shoot 5 rounds rifle , set it down, then 6 rounds pistol.
3 times standing,
3 times knelling,
3 times sitting,
Almost every day the last 2 summers.
You:Fire::Fire: see I like to shoot.

Don't expect your SBH to last to long with that load....:bigsmyl2:

[Saint]

I tried kicking them a bit harder today, hoping for more obturation and a tighter fit. Just made the leading worse and turned the gun into a beast. 21 grains is not friendly. So I guess I will try backing the load down a bit until I can shoot through this batch. Guess its time to start casting. I did find that running a few jacketed through the leaded barrel pushed out most of the leading.

[BackWoods Billy]

I tried kicking them a bit harder today, hoping for more obturation and a tighter fit. Just made the leading worse and turned the gun into a beast. 21 grains is not friendly. So I guess I will try backing the load down a bit until I can shoot through this batch. Guess its time to start casting. I did find that running a few jacketed through the leaded barrel pushed out most of the leading.

Be careful with the leaded barrel and the jacketed boolits. I do it all the time but I make sure there's not to much lead...:bigsmyl2: Like all the above said.Size your boolit bigger to cylinder size or get gas checked boolits.

[JesterGrin_1]

One does not have to have a Gas checked boolit but one must fit the bullet as said to the throat and the bore. A Gas checked boolit just makes it easier to find an accurate load.

The 431244 is a Good gas check design and the 430421 plain base.
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt44mag.htm Some decent reading.

[44man]

New question on this gun. I have so far put about 200 .429 SWCBB through this thing and last night I spent an hour scrubbing lead out of the barrel. It was bad enough that the leading was nearly the same depth of the lands. I also noticed that some of the throats had lead in them that looked like it had been melted and then cooled in the throats. It seems that the bullets are getting pulverized by the charge. Is this normal or do I need to back down my charge? I am currently running 19.2 grains of 2400.
Your boolit is too small and will do better up to .432". You also did not say what lead your using. Or lube.

[Saint]

Your boolit is too small and will do better up to .432". You also did not say what lead your using. Or lube.
These are factory cast and come lubed out of the box so I know little about the alloy or the lube being used. They are made here in Utah by Bumblebee Bullets. I am considering smelting down what is left as it would be about 30 pounds of alloy. Then I could use my own molds and cast some larger ones. Only problem is I dont yet own a sizer so that will cost some change.

[fecmech]

These are factory cast and come lubed out of the box so I know little about the alloy or the lube being used. They are made here in Utah by Bumblebee Bullets. I am considering smelting down what is left as it would be about 30 pounds of alloy. Then I could use my own molds and cast some larger ones. Only problem is I dont yet own a sizer so that will cost some change.

I believe it will be money well spent as I think 44 man is right. Evidently Ruger is still up to their old tricks. I have a 3 screw SBH that I bought back in 1970 and it has .433-.434 throats and .429 groove so they've been making big throats for a long time. As long as I shot max loads of 296 (25 grs) behind a ACWW 429421 sized .430 I did not have any trouble and very good accuracy. That was all I shot for years. I got the lesson in throat size a few years back when I started shooting .44 specials, turned my barrel into a lead lined pipe! Long story short, "Beagled" my mold and got a custom .433 sizer die and all is well. Magnum accuracy improved and specials are accurate and lead free.

[blackpowder man]

I bought my .432 lee push thru sizer from ranch dog and it looks like he has them in stock $21 + shipping. My Ruger SBHs like .432. With .429 and .430 I also got leading.

[BackWoods Billy]

Just get a Lee sizer for now..About $25.00 after shipping. You can make it .431-.432 easy.www.midsouthshooters.com. I think they work great....Just dip your boolits in the lube you make or buy and push them throw.

[Rodfac]

Saint...if you're shooting jacketed bullets at full factory magnum velocities, you're wearing the components, (barrel, forcing cone, cylinder throats, and lock up) faster then you would with lead alloy bullets at slower speeds. Just how many full house loads it takes to degrade the accuracy of your hand gun, is open to debate, but you are doing some wear. That said, it's my belief, and I think I'm not alone in this, that you almost can't wear out a barrel shooting lead alloy at moderate speeds; say 1000 fps. The proof, if needed, is the accurate condition of .22 LR match rifles that have shot literally tens of thousands of rounds and still enjoy gilt edge accuracy. Best Regards, Rodfac

[bigboredad]

or save the shipping and waiting and go pick it up at Gallensons in the city at 2nd south and 2nd east. I'm guessing that's where you got your bumblebee bullets. I've always had really good luck with bumblebee They are a bit hard but no where near as hard as the silver bullet. The lube they use is pretty hard but again not as bad as some. Slug your barrel and your throats and go from there slugging take all the guess work out

[EDK]

Since you are going to start casting

1. Get one of the RANCH DOG TLC 432 265 moulds and tumble lube them with LEE LIQUID ALOX or LARS' XLOX and use the gas checks too. I am having some trouble with leading in several new 44 VAQUEROS and have found that firing six rounds of the GC/XLOX lubed boolits cleans the leading out.

2. For less expensive shooting, get a plain base mould. I like the MMA10MM clone of LYMAN 429421/MIHEC'S version of same, the NOE clone of the RANCH DOG in plain base and a couple of others. Mould-aholics Anonymous anyone? There's way more good moulds and mould makers than I can afford!

3. Get the RANCH DOG .432 push through sizer and look up his instructions. Since his designs were primarily for rifles, they definitely will solve pistol leading issues.

4. Stay on the low end for your practice ammo. Since I have the luxury of shooting 48 to 60 rounds daily, lower end loads are a good idea. Carpal tunnel surgery isn't bad, but learning to do certain things with the other hand is awkward. Most of the gunwriters who preached the big bores like .454 and up are now experiencing hand and arm problems...they really like 45 Colt and 44 Special now!

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[JesterGrin_1]

Even a Colt 1911 in 45 ACP will takes its toll on the Human body if shot enough.

I also tend to like the 300 to 330 for hunting or if I think I may run across a critter like a HOG when out on the lease. But for any normal shooting I will use the Ranch Dog 265Gr RNFP/GC or the Lyman 255 Gr 431244 SWC/GC. Even though I may keep an eye out for the 250Gr 430431 SWC/PB.

But my all around favorite load for my .44 Mags in a S&W 629 Classic and my Ruger Bisley Hunter in .44 Mag is the 240-255Gr SWC with 5.5Gr of TightGroup. It is around 900-950 accurate and does not beat the heck out of you lol.

[Saint]

I am going to try and fire them off with some Unique just to get rid of them. The Hornady manual lists 7.6 grains as a max but I know that is light for a .44 mag. I will give it a try but I will probably step it up. Many home cooked handloads are STARTING at 10 grains so I am a little worried 7.6 may be too low but im not into taking chances. Anyone ever shot this load?

[saz]

I have shot 7.5grs unique with a saeco 441, and it is too light. Very dirty and accuracy was bad. As it started to heat up I settled in on 9.5grs and what a difference. Burns clean (for unique) and very good accuracy. My advice, heat it up a little.

[NHlever]

I am going to try and fire them off with some Unique just to get rid of them. The Hornady manual lists 7.6 grains as a max but I know that is light for a .44 mag. I will give it a try but I will probably step it up. Many home cooked handloads are STARTING at 10 grains so I am a little worried 7.6 may be too low but im not into taking chances. Anyone ever shot this load?

Hornady uses the light load of Unique because of their swaged bullet, and not because of pressure. If you look in the Hornady manual you will probably see jacketed bullet loads with heavier charges of Unique, and they build pressure faster than cast boolits do.