45-70

[Johnw...ski]

Thinking about buying something really big and to me usless but cool.
Anyone have any comments about a Mangum Research 45-70 revolver?

John

[Phat Man Mike]

I'd like to own one!!!

[45nut]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/revolvers/bfr.jpg

They are beautiful and well made! Get one,, no,, get two!

[btroj]

Gee..... Where did you get your handle 45 nut?

[No_1]

Then they could call you cross draw McGraw! :bigsmyl2:

[Frank]

Johnw...ski:
Thinking about buying something really big and to me usless but cool.
Anyone have any comments about a Mangum Research 45-70 revolver?

It will get you in trouble sometimes. When their girlfriends looked at how I was doing through the spotter scope, no more words were exchanged. They just packed up and left in a huff. It can make you a lonely man. [smilie=l:

[wellfedirishman]

Go big or go home, get one in 500 S&W :) I have one and it is a beast, but one heck of a shooter. With reduced loads it is much more pleasant to shoot. If I could pick one up in 45-70 I'd likely grab it too.

Make sure to keep the ejector rod housing screw in tight. Mine sheared off (I think due to it being loose).

Either caliber it is a fine revolver.

[44man]

Get one if you can stand under 1" groups at 100 and run off the rifle shooters! [smilie=2:

[Whitworth]

Get one if you can stand under 1" groups at 100 and run off the rifle shooters! [smilie=2:

I've shot 44man's quite extensively and it is one of themost accurate handguns I have ever shot. It's crazy.

[frankenfab]

I have the .444, and I would like a .45-70 as well.

[1Shirt]

See a lot of the "better mousetrap" symdrom here! That said, think I will not be trading off my #1 Rug 45-70, or my 444 Marlin!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Lead Fred]

If one comes my way. I will snatch it up.
Its on the bucket list

[44man]

If one comes my way. I will snatch it up.
Its on the bucket list
Get the 10" barrel, the case is too large for short barrels.

[Johnw...ski]

Ok, I went and did it and bought a Magnum Research 10" 45-70 revolver.

Any suggestions on loads to try with this. Right now I have a lot of 375 gr.,
390 gr., 405 gr, and 425 gr. all GC to start with.

Do you guys use rifle primers or pistol primers?

Are there any books that have specific load data for these short pistol barrels?

Looking at the #2 rifle load data for lever action rifles, something like 2400 would seem to be called for for the shorter barrels. Anyone having success with 2400?

I will probably have more questions later.

Thanks,

John

[Whitworth]

Congratulations on the purchase! You won't be disappointed!

[44man]

Ok, I went and did it and bought a Magnum Research 10" 45-70 revolver.

Any suggestions on loads to try with this. Right now I have a lot of 375 gr.,
390 gr., 405 gr, and 425 gr. all GC to start with.

Do you guys use rifle primers or pistol primers?

Are there any books that have specific load data for these short pistol barrels?

Looking at the #2 rifle load data for lever action rifles, something like 2400 would seem to be called for for the shorter barrels. Anyone having success with 2400?

I will probably have more questions later.

Thanks,

John
Even the 10" barrel has powder problems and so far the very best has been SR4759.
I use Fed 155 primers, LR primers were not as accurate.
I also found a tuft of Dacron on the powder up to the boolit base was more accurate.
I tried every powder you can use in the 45-70 with mixed results, 2400 and Unique just did not work. 4198 gave me pressure and velocity excursions.
This revolver will shoot a wide range of boolits and I have worked up for a lot of them.
Hornady 300 gr, .458" bullet, 32.5 gr 4759.
317 gr GC, 31 gr 4759.
330 gr GC, 31.5 gr 4759.
325 gr, 31.5 gr 4759.
378 gr PB, 30 gr 4759.
350 to 360 gr, 30 gr 4759.
420 gr, 28.5 gr 4759.
448 gr, 26 gr 4759.
Do not download 4759 too much, you will get a failure to ignite.
Here are a few groups I shot at 50 yards from bags. The first was a sight in for hunting with my 317 gr boolit. It is the right target and the others were different boolits.
Then this can has 5 shots in the top hole at 100 yards. Other holes were from a rifle. I clang steel at 500 meters with my gun. Drop is around 26' so I aim at a tree branch WAAAAY above the ram.

[Johnw...ski]

Thanks 44man. Have you tried H110 or WW296?

John

[44man]

Thanks 44man. Have you tried H110 or WW296?

John
Won't work, those are powders that need very little airspace and can't be downloaded. Any reasonable amount in a 45-70 case will be a download. Stay with stick powders.
I have not found a better powder then 4759 yet Varget, as slow as it burns, seemed to work.
I tried everything and 3031 was accurate but did not burn all the way and had real slow velocity.
5744 was dirty and not accurate. It needs a longer barrel.
Unique and 2400 would fire OK but accuracy was a pipe dream.
That large case in a short barrel is a bitch but it can be super accurate with low pressure.
It is also the cleanest revolver with 4759, Brass is CLEAN.
Please do not read burn rate charts, they can get you in trouble fast.

[Johnw...ski]

Won't work, those are powders that need very little airspace and can't be downloaded. Any reasonable amount in a 45-70 case will be a download. Stay with stick powders.
I have not found a better powder then 4759 yet Varget, as slow as it burns, seemed to work.
I tried everything and 3031 was accurate but did not burn all the way and had real slow velocity.
5744 was dirty and not accurate. It needs a longer barrel.
Unique and 2400 would fire OK but accuracy was a pipe dream.
That large case in a short barrel is a bitch but it can be super accurate with low pressure.
It is also the cleanest revolver with 4759, Brass is CLEAN.
Please do not read burn rate charts, they can get you in trouble fast.

I really appreciate th info 44man. Not trying to pick you apart, just trying to limit my false starts. So you think Varget is a good second choice? I usually have 30 or so pounds of that around.

Will any mag small pistol primers work, or is it Federal #155 specific?

Thanks,

John

[arjacobson]

how are these to shoot. I remember shooting a Tc in 45-70 years ago and hated the thing.. Course I don't like shooting full house 44 mags either..

[44man]

I really appreciate th info 44man. Not trying to pick you apart, just trying to limit my false starts. So you think Varget is a good second choice? I usually have 30 or so pounds of that around.

Will any mag small pistol primers work, or is it Federal #155 specific?

Thanks,

John
Any mag LP primer will work (Not SP). The 45-70 BFR has a 22# to 23# mainspring for LP primers. The .450 Marlin has a 28# spring for LR primers. So if you order a BFR with both cylinders, you get a 28# spring. I still change out my 45-70 to a 26# Wolff variable.
Varget seemed to burn clean and might be OK with the heavier boolits. I even use this powder in the 7R and 7BR after Hodgdon said it is too slow.
Arjacobson, compared to a TC, they are a joy to shoot. The TC will beat you silly!

[Snapping Twig]

Try this to get your feet wet.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Once you establish a baseline you can move up the ladder with trapdoor rounds and eventually go to lever data.

Hope this helps.

[Dframe]

I've never fired one of the freedom revolvers but have a LOT of fun with my Phelps 45-70. I load nothing over "trapdoor Max" but have a ball with it. Lately I've been shooting Trail Boss and 405 grain cast boolits from Oregon Trail.

[44man]

Try this to get your feet wet.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Once you establish a baseline you can move up the ladder with trapdoor rounds and eventually go to lever data.

Hope this helps.
I don't think I will be using those powders in my 45-70 revolver. I see no use in a rifle either. BP is better. Less thump to the boolit and lower pressures.
My load of 4759 with a 317 gr boolit does 1632 fps and I have reached 1800 fps in a 10" barrel with some powders but accuracy was not good when too fast.
4759 is a very bulky powder and fills a lot of the case and though it is a fast powder it does not act like that.
I will never see the point of putting a pinch of shotgun powder in such a large case. Why not just use a .45 Colt?
OOPS, I forgot the CA shooters with the need for zero recoil. Some of those dudes would use a paper cap and no powder if the boolit would leave the barrel. :mrgreen:

[Frank]

44man's got the right loads for the BFR. The reloading books are good, but they don't tell you that SR powder shoots better with LPM primers. Now who figured that out? [smilie=l:

[Snapping Twig]

I don't think I will be using those powders in my 45-70 revolver. I see no use in a rifle either. BP is better. Less thump to the boolit and lower pressures.
My load of 4759 with a 317 gr boolit does 1632 fps and I have reached 1800 fps in a 10" barrel with some powders but accuracy was not good when too fast.
4759 is a very bulky powder and fills a lot of the case and though it is a fast powder it does not act like that.
I will never see the point of putting a pinch of shotgun powder in such a large case. Why not just use a .45 Colt?
OOPS, I forgot the CA shooters with the need for zero recoil. Some of those dudes would use a paper cap and no powder if the boolit would leave the barrel. :mrgreen:

FWIW, as a Californian fighting against the tide and a caster/reloader and hunter since the early 80's, I like recoil. My offering was in the spirit of goodwill as posted, starting loads.

I shoot a Casull with a 350g 45-70 bullet sized down. Pretty much the same thing as a trapdoor 45-70 load @ 1400fps+.

Why use smokeless over BP? Less cleaning perhaps?

[44man]

FWIW, as a Californian fighting against the tide and a caster/reloader and hunter since the early 80's, I like recoil. My offering was in the spirit of goodwill as posted, starting loads.

I shoot a Casull with a 350g 45-70 bullet sized down. Pretty much the same thing as a trapdoor 45-70 load @ 1400fps+.

Why use smokeless over BP? Less cleaning perhaps?
I understand. But it is a large case.
I have used BP forever, even in the .45 Colt and .44 for fun. I figured it would be fun in the BFR 45-70 since I have all kinds of BPCR loads.
Magnum Research told me NO to BP and I just can't figure out why.

[wiljen]

I have used H110 in the 45-70 with a 1/2 inch vegetable wad between the powder and bullet base to take up the air space. These wads are handy to have for reduced loads in the 45-70. H110 loads were listed a few years ago in an article I believe it was Shooting Times ran on 45-70 in handguns. I will say that perceived recoil with H110 is far worse than that of some other powders. Even full loads of 3031 didn't seem as abrupt to me.

[Johnw...ski]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/JohnWski/GunCollectionMagnumResearchModBFR45-70Cal45-70SerNoJT13223.jpg

I picked my new BFR revolver today, it's huge, over 18" long. Seems to be very well made and the trigger wasn't bad out of the box but I took it apart and did a trigger job on it anyhow, it's really nice now. Can't wait to shoot it.

John

[Frank]

Nice, John. That makes Dirty Harry's piece look like a pee shooter. :mrgreen:

[Whitworth]

Very nice, John!! Can't wait to hear how it shoots!

[Frank]

Whitworth:
Very nice, John!! Can't wait to hear how it shoots!

It shoots great. The question is, How does he shoot? [smilie=1:

[Johnw...ski]

Whitworth:
It shoots great. The question is, How does he shoot? [smilie=1:

I have all your pet loads Frank, so I should be OK.

John

[Frank]

Johns...ski:
Quote:
I have all your pet loads Frank, so I should be OK.

John

I know they're in good hands. You won't be disappointed. :Fire:

[Johnw...ski]

First off, while I have never owned a .44 magnum I have shot my share of them. I have also shot some fairly stout loads out of a .500 S & W revolver. That said, there is no way that the recoil of a decent load in the BFR 45-70 can in any way compare with a .44 magnum. The load I tried today was posssibly more violent than the .500 S & W I have shot. So much for perceived recoil.

While the weather today was not the best for outdoor shooting, (36 degrees and drizzle) I couldn't wait to try my new toy. Sighting at a 6" bullseye at 50 yds. quickly proved the front sight is a bit too high. With the rear sight bottomed out I had to aim at the bottom of the paper (approx. 6" below the bull) to get the shots centered in the black. 5 shot groups with the iron sights at 50 yds. from a rest were in the 3" range often with 3 shots touching or nearly touching.

Taking some 50 yd. shots at metallic silhouette pigs I had brought was also interesting. Shooting from a rest and aiming about 1 body width below the pig I quickly dropped 5 pigs with 5 shots. These pigs have laughed at .357 magnum hits but the 45-70 was a whole different outcome. First these pigs didn't fall over they were driven a minimum of 10 feet back. The hits put some major hurt on these silhouettes nearly penetrating one.

The load, 425 gr. GC .459 dia. Glen Hills Cast Boolit, 29.5 gr. SR4759, Federal 155 primer, Starline brass, 2.532 OAL.

John

[44man]

It does have some recoil but it doesn't hurt, I compare it to my SBH. Maybe less. I really enjoy shooting it.
You can get a shorter front sight from MR, they just screw on.
The gun really does put a hurt on targets and is so much fun you will go through boolits like crazy.
I wish you the most fun ever! :mrgreen:

[Johnw...ski]

It does have some recoil but it doesn't hurt, I compare it to my SBH. Maybe less. I really enjoy shooting it.
You can get a shorter front sight from MR, they just screw on.
The gun really does put a hurt on targets and is so much fun you will go through boolits like crazy.
I wish you the most fun ever! :mrgreen:

I didn't think the sight issue through, the gun is shooting high so a shorter front sight will only make it worse. I just ordered a taller one online. Called Magnum Research and found their technical support very friendly and helpful. That should not be a surprise but a lot of companies don't beleive in costomer support these days.

John

[Johnw...ski]

Thank you 44man and Frank, I got off to a really good start with this revolver.
I can't imagine I would ever have tried SR4759 without the advise I got here. The large pistol magnum primers make a lot of sense in retrospect but being a rifle cartridge I probably would have used large rifle primers. You guys saved me from going down a lot of wrong paths. The way this revolver is shooting right from the beginning there are probably some metallic silhouette matches in my future.

Thanks again,

John

[Frank]

Great effort and report. That powder charge is too high. You should try 27-28 grns and it should tighten.

[44man]

Great effort and report. That powder charge is too high. You should try 27-28 grns and it should tighten.
I use 28.5 gr of 4759 with a 420 gr boolit.
You need to be careful with 4759, Don't download too much or the powder will fail to ignite and blow the boolit and powder into the barrel. It will start to act like H110 or 296 even though it is a stick powder. It will do this even with a Dacron filler.
I have not seen any spikes with a little too much powder, just an accuracy loss like normal when working loads.
As always, work slow and make sure every boolit has left the bore with lighter charges.
I don't think I would go under 27.5 to 28 gr. with that boolit.
You will know when you hit the sweet spot and a little more powder will start to open the groups.
When I got to a 448 gr boolit that Dubber sent me, I went down to 26 gr. It shot great but I still used Dacron.
There is no slow powder that will fill the huge case and burn in the short barrel but Varget came the closest and surprised me.
I shoot a huge number of boolits from mine so I am always changing sight settings. I had to re-sight for a boolit and shot these groups at 50 yards. The center group is 5 shots in 5/16". The left is from my .475.
Aiming at a tree branch about 26' over a steel ram at 500 meters, I can keep all shots on the ram. Just need a spotter so you can walk into the steel, once you find it, the gun will out shoot every 45-70 rifle I ever shot.

[Frank]

44man:
I use 28.5 gr of 4759 with a 420 gr boolit.
You need to be careful with 4759, Don't download too much or the powder will fail to ignite and blow the boolit and powder into the barrel. It will start to act like H110 or 296 even though it is a stick powder. It will do this even with a Dacron filler
I don't know where you get that idea. [smilie=p: You are .5 grain over RCBS load notes for a 405 grn boolit. RCBS minimum for that boolit is 26.0 grns. That is for a Marlin 1895.

Lyman shows a minimum of 23 grns and a max of 28.5 for SR4759 and a 420 grn boolit and it's seating depth is 2.550". That is also a Marlin load.

For trapdoor, Lyman also lists for a 420 grn boolit loads of 18 grns - 23 grns, SR4759.

[Groo]

Groo here
Never shot a revolver but my SSK 45-70 hits where you point it..
Used 3031 and never looked back..
Mine likes heavy bullets best [ 400 to 500 gr] but 300's will work on deer just fine..
Hint /: try CCI LR bench rest with 3031.. top trapdoor loads up to 1/2 way to lever loads..

[44man]

44man:
I don't know where you get that idea. [smilie=p: You are .5 grain over RCBS load notes for a 405 grn boolit. RCBS minimum for that boolit is 26.0 grns. That is for a Marlin 1895.

Lyman shows a minimum of 23 grns and a max of 28.5 for SR4759 and a 420 grn boolit and it's seating depth is 2.550". That is also a Marlin load.

For trapdoor, Lyman also lists for a 420 grn boolit loads of 18 grns - 23 grns, SR4759.
It is a REVOLVER, not a rifle and the boolit has a large gap to cross.
I got that idea from sticking boolits in the bore with no ignition.
I give that as a warning to never shoot another boolit if you get a funny sound from the first or no recoil. Pay close attention when working loads.
I had several Mountain mold, 420 gr boolits stick in the bore with 27 gr of 4759. The powder never lit. Going to 27.5 and 28 cured it.
You need to remember the rifle loads also use rifle primers. The BFR is not set up for them with the 23# mainspring. It WILL fire a rifle primer but accuracy suffered big time with them.
Since NO loading info can be found for the 45-70 revolver, be careful fitting rifle loads to it.

[44man]

Groo here
Never shot a revolver but my SSK 45-70 hits where you point it..
Used 3031 and never looked back..
Mine likes heavy bullets best [ 400 to 500 gr] but 300's will work on deer just fine..
Hint /: try CCI LR bench rest with 3031.. top trapdoor loads up to 1/2 way to lever loads..
3031 was fairly accurate in the revolver but half did not burn and velocity was very low.
You can NOT compare the single shot or rifle to the revolver.

[Johnw...ski]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank
44man:
I don't know where you get that idea. You are .5 grain over RCBS load notes for a 405 grn boolit. RCBS minimum for that boolit is 26.0 grns. That is for a Marlin 1895.

Lyman shows a minimum of 23 grns and a max of 28.5 for SR4759 and a 420 grn boolit and it's seating depth is 2.550". That is also a Marlin load.

For trapdoor, Lyman also lists for a 420 grn boolit loads of 18 grns - 23 grns, SR4759.




It is a REVOLVER, not a rifle and the boolit has a large gap to cross.
I got that idea from sticking boolits in the bore with no ignition.
I give that as a warning to never shoot another boolit if you get a funny sound from the first or no recoil. Pay close attention when working loads.
I had several Mountain mold, 420 gr boolits stick in the bore with 27 gr of 4759. The powder never lit. Going to 27.5 and 28 cured it.
You need to remember the rifle loads also use rifle primers. The BFR is not set up for them with the 23# mainspring. It WILL fire a rifle primer but accuracy suffered big time with them.
Since NO loading info can be found for the 45-70 revolver, be careful fitting rifle loads to it.

So you guys think 29.5 gr. SR4759 is an overload for a 425 gr. boolit?
The primers are flattened but not excessively, they are pistol primers after all.
I can't say the accuracy was disappointing, I was using the iron sights that came with the revolver and I'me sure my 56 year old eyes could do better too.

John

[Frank]

Johnw..ski:
So you guys think 29.5 gr. SR4759 is an overload for a 425 gr. boolit?
The primers are flattened but not excessively, they are pistol primers after all.

I think 29.5 grns is too much for the BFR. Here's why. RCBS's loading book shows 28.0 grns top for SR4759 & and 425 grn boolit. That is the max load they use for their Marlin 1895. BFR's are supposed to handle Marlin lever loads. With Ruger#1 loads, you can go to 35 grns SR4759 with the same boolit. So you're not exceeding the cartridge loads, but maybe putting more wear and tear on the gun. But why do that if the accuracy point is lower?

[Johnw...ski]

I only have the loads you and 44man gave me and one of them was 29.5 gr. SR4759 with a 420 gr boolit. I am not disputing what the book says and if its an overload its an overload period. There is no reason I wouldn't be happy with a 28.0 gr. max load.

That being said, onto what BFR's can handle, a .500 S&W or a .454 Casull use a
60,000 cup working pressure and the BFR's are chambered for them so I would think a BFR is capable of digesting a hot 45-70 load. Not that I need to do that, I'me just saying that there is a huge safety margin in this case.

John



Johnw..ski:
I think 29.5 grns is too much for the BFR. Here's why. RCBS's loading book shows 28.0 grns top for SR4759 & and 425 grn boolit. That is the max load they use for their Marlin 1895. BFR's are supposed to handle Marlin lever loads. With Ruger#1 loads, you can go to 35 grns SR4759 with the same boolit. So you're not exceeding the cartridge loads, but maybe putting more wear and tear on the gun. But why do that if the accuracy point is lower?

[44man]

I only have the loads you and 44man gave me and one of them was 29.5 gr. SR4759 with a 420 gr boolit. I am not disputing what the book says and if its an overload its an overload period. There is no reason I wouldn't be happy with a 28.0 gr. max load.

That being said, onto what BFR's can handle, a .500 S&W or a .454 Casull use a
60,000 cup working pressure and the BFR's are chambered for them so I would think a BFR is capable of digesting a hot 45-70 load. Not that I need to do that, I'me just saying that there is a huge safety margin in this case.

John
OH, OH, my fault. I went back and looked and I hit the wrong key. It should be 28.5 gr. I edited it.
You are not dangerous, just out of the accuracy zone.
After all, the same gun handles the .450 Marlin. BFR will fit a .450 Marlin cylinder to the same gun for you so you can shoot both.
I feel it is a brass issue with the weaker 45-70 brass. Also the use of a LP primer.
The .450 can generate 42,600 PSI.
This gun is as strong as any .454 too but you can stick 45-70 brass if pressure gets too high.
MR says to keep it at or below 30,000 PSI.

[Johnw...ski]

My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3 rd. edition shows the following loads:
for Ruger #1 & #3
420 gr. cast
SR4759 28.0 gr. 19,300 cup 35.0 gr. 36,400 cup

426 cast
SR4759 26.0 gr. 20,700 cup 35.4 gr. 37,300 cup

for 1886 Winchester & 1895 Marlin:
420 gr. cast
SR4759 23.0 gr. 15,700 cup 28.5 gr. 24.500 cup

I realize the pressure rise is a curve and not a straight line but I am comfortable doing a straight extrapolation in this case. Extrapolating the Ruger 420 gr. loads
32.5 gr. is 30,293 cup and for 426 gr boolits, 31.4 is 30,236 cup both very close to MR's guidline of 30,000 cup. So there is still a comfortable margin before crossing that line.

As for accuracy I will have to try down loading a bit as you suggest. I did not use a filler with the 29.5 gr load since there was only 1/8" of air space and was glad not to have to use a filler. I'll keep you informed.

John


OH, OH, my fault. I went back and looked and I hit the wrong key. It should be 28.5 gr. I edited it.
You are not dangerous, just out of the accuracy zone.
After all, the same gun handles the .450 Marlin. BFR will fit a .450 Marlin cylinder to the same gun for you so you can shoot both.
I feel it is a brass issue with the weaker 45-70 brass. Also the use of a LP primer.
The .450 can generate 42,600 PSI.
This gun is as strong as any .454 too but you can stick 45-70 brass if pressure gets too high.
MR says to keep it at or below 30,000 PSI.

[44man]

What you need to think about is C.U.P is different then PSI so don't try to match the numbers. Pay attention to loading info that only shows one or the other.
MR stated PSI for pressure. Either way, your load was safe and working loads I went up and watched groups open so I went back to the most accurate and in any revolver I only shoot the most accurate and never pay any attention to velocity. I have piles of boolit loads that I never shot over the chronograph.
I did have trouble in the revolver with 4198. It shot a jacketed fine but I got pressure excursions with cast, a few shots jumping to over 1800 fps and sticking a few cases. Boolit jump before ignition with increased powder space? I don't know but I will never use the powder again, save it for a rifle.
The 45-70 revolver was the hardest gun to figure out because all 45-70 load info sucks and what works in a rifle can fail in the revolver.
Now the bad thing, it shoots best with WD WW boolits or a little harder. The boolits suck on deer because of the velocity, poking a hole with almost no internal damage unless you hit bone first.
I lost a couple and those I found went 200 yards and lungs only had a hole through them.
Going to a softer boolit worked but they must have a GC and even then you will get some fliers, not far out enough to worry about. A soft PB will shoot large patterns so a PB needs a hard base and a soft nose. It got so bad I had to use a Hornady bullet one season, the 300 gr shoots great.
Going too soft with a hollow point with destroy a pile of meat. Babore sent me some and I lost an entire shoulder! :veryconfu Great 50-50 boolits but I think 75-25 WW and pure would be better. They had to be oven hardened to maintain any accuracy.
Work for deer will go on for me.
Whatever, once a load is found, the 45-70 BFR is the most accurate revolver ever with the proper twist rate. ALL BFR's have proper twist rates and super barrels.
This is what a Babore boolit does!

[Johnw...ski]

Shot some 400 gr. Lyman 457483 boolits today. They were .458 dia. with a 29.5 gr. SR4759 charge. No filler. The accuracy was not so good and I will try again with a bit of filler. I would prefer .459 dia. but I have 100 or so of these and might as well try them and use them up.

Think I should change the charge weight?

John

[44man]

Shot some 400 gr. Lyman 457483 boolits today. They were .458 dia. with a 29.5 gr. SR4759 charge. No filler. The accuracy was not so good and I will try again with a bit of filler. I would prefer .459 dia. but I have 100 or so of these and might as well try them and use them up.

Think I should change the charge weight?

John
I can not find that boolit number. Is it a semi wad cutter? If so, they don't shoot for me at all.
.459" is best. The load sounds good.

[Johnw...ski]

It seems they were 378 gr., more or less round nose boolits, similar to the 405 and 425 gr. boolits but with a rounder nose. Somewhere along the line they morphed to around 400 gr. which is what I have. BTW they are GC boolits. Still have a bunch that are sized to .458 but can cast some in the future and size to .459.

Will try some sized at .458 with a bit polyester filler. Probably should just melt them down and make some the right size.

Right now the 425 gr. boolit sized to .459 is the bullet of choice but who knows what I will find.

Thank you,

John


I can not find that boolit number. Is it a semi wad cutter? If so, they don't shoot for me at all.
.459" is best. The load sounds good.

[44man]

I wish you lived close. I am finding it very hard to send boolits on SS or I would send some. WW's are not to be had either so I need to hoard my little supply.
I promised boolits to a few guys and feel bad about it. I need gas in my car and it scares me. How will I cut grass? What do I do if I run out of lead?
You know it is bad when I had to start making my own molds from scrap with a cheap machine I have had for years. I even make my own beer! :mrgreen:

[Johnw...ski]

I am doing ok, the 425 gr boolits are working well and should work better when I load some with a 28.0 to 28.5 gr powder charge. I probably shouldn't waste my time with these other boolits but I have these and some others that are sized, lubed and ready to go that I would like to use up. I am also waiting for another front sight because right now I am out of adjustment and still shooting very high.

Have you ever tried 500 gr boolits in your revolver?

John


I wish you lived close. I am finding it very hard to send boolits on SS or I would send some. WW's are not to be had either so I need to hoard my little supply.
I promised boolits to a few guys and feel bad about it. I need gas in my car and it scares me. How will I cut grass? What do I do if I run out of lead?
You know it is bad when I had to start making my own molds from scrap with a cheap machine I have had for years. I even make my own beer! :mrgreen:

[44man]

I am doing ok, the 425 gr boolits are working well and should work better when I load some with a 28.0 to 28.5 gr powder charge. I probably shouldn't waste my time with these other boolits but I have these and some others that are sized, lubed and ready to go that I would like to use up. I am also waiting for another front sight because right now I am out of adjustment and still shooting very high.

Have you ever tried 500 gr boolits in your revolver?

John
I did but it is not worth the amount of lead. I shoot a lot of boolits from mine, maybe more then any other revolver.
These are the boolits I shoot but I stick with only a few because of sight changes.

[Johnw...ski]

Just got back from the range after trying some 400 gr. Lyman 457483 boolits still sized to .458 but this time I used a 3/8x1/2x1/2 polyester filler. The groups really tightened up at 50 yds. When I get around to casting some more of these boolits and sizing them to .459 dia. the groups should get even better.

Another factor that should improve things is the next time I shoot this revolver I will have an Ultra Dot Match Dot on it. I continue to be impressed at how well this gun shoots. I thought I would be happy with the iron sights, and I am, but a dot will really refine the capability of this revolver.

John


Shot some 400 gr. Lyman 457483 boolits today. They were .458 dia. with a 29.5 gr. SR4759 charge. No filler. The accuracy was not so good and I will try again with a bit of filler. I would prefer .459 dia. but I have 100 or so of these and might as well try them and use them up.

Think I should change the charge weight?

John

[Frank]

Johnw..ski:
When I get around to casting some more of these boolits and sizing them to .459 dia. the groups should get even better.

Size is important .459, but don't forget alloy. What kind of alloy are you using now? I usually use a very hard alloy of 27. But I have another mold that is exceptional and prefers 18. Experiment.

Matchdot: Great. I recommend Warne low PR rings.

Powder charge: Try 27-27.5-28.0 SR4759 for starters.

A good firm square rear bag also helps, along with a good front bag. I like Protektor products.

[Johnw...ski]

Johnw..ski:
Size is important .459, but don't forget alloy. What kind of alloy are you using now? I usually use a very hard alloy of 27. But I have another mold that is exceptional and prefers 18. Experiment.

Matchdot: Great. I recommend Warne low PR rings.

Powder charge: Try 27-27.5-28.0 SR4759 for starters.

A good firm square rear bag also helps, along with a good front bag. I like Protektor products.

Thanks Frank,

I have some alloy that is just under 18 BHN and I have plenty of lead, tin and foundry type to get any hardness I want.

I followed your advise and got Warne low profile rings.

I just loaded some 425 gr. .459 dia. gc boolits over 28.5 gr. SR4759 with a small cube of polyester filler to try the next time out. That is 1.0 gr. less than I started with but with the addition of a filler.

I have a good rest, it's nice to work up loads and shoot groups but once I settle on a load I will not use it much prefering to shoot standing or prone.

John

[Frank]

Johnw..ski:
I have a good rest, it's nice to work up loads and shoot groups but once I settle on a load I will not use it much prefering to shoot standing or prone.

Prone? What's that? Anybody.

[44man]

Johnw..ski:
Prone? What's that? Anybody.
Lay on your belly unless it is round like mine and makes me rock! :holysheep

[Frank]

44man:
Lay on your belly unless it is round like mine and makes me rock!
You need to do the Abs of Steel tape. :popcorn:

[Johnw...ski]

Johnw..ski:
Prone? What's that? Anybody.

How about belly shooting?

John

[Frank]

Johnw..ski:

How about belly shooting?

John

Sounds OK. I prefer Creedmore for the long range stuff.

[Johnw...ski]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/JohnWski/011.jpg

I installed the new sight on the BFR 45-70. Now I will see what this revolver can really do.

John

[Frank]

You're going to hate me for this, but I had my Matchdot mounted exactly like that with the front ring against the turret. Rear ring was also the same. After about a year the glass started distorting and Ultradot sent me a new sight. Now I mount it like 44man. He puts the extension on the front and the ring all the way up. He's never had a problem so it's possible there's a gain with his mounting.

[44man]

Frank is right.
I never put a ring over any glass so check where the rings are against where the glass is.
I like to put the extension on tight with a small rubber strap wrench and mount the front ring at the joint or a little ahead of it.
If the glass is clear, it will be OK.

[Johnw...ski]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/JohnWski/003.jpg

Point taken. I know its kind of ass backward but I have the same sight on my indoor target pistol and I prefer the shade on the back. I was seeing reflections in the rear glass and it was distracting.

Thanks,

John

[Frank]

Johnw..ski:
I prefer the shade on the back
Great idea. :coffee:

[Johnw...ski]

I just got back from the range after sighting in my new Match Dot sight and trying some 425 gr. gc Glenhills boolits over 28.5 gr SR4759, Federal 155 primers, and a bit of filler. The groups from a rest at 50 yds. were right around 2". Not great but not too shabby either.

I'll keep tinkering and keep you all posted.

John

[44man]

Find a target with a white spot a little larger then the dot covers so you can center it nicely.

[Johnw...ski]

Got out and shot the BFR 45-70 10" revolver again today, this time with a powder charge of 27.5 gr. of SR 4759 and the same 425 gr. Glenhills GC cast boolit, a tuft of filler and Federal 155 primers. At 50 yds. from a rest it's still grouping at 2".
While I consider the current accuracy very good I plan to start trying some different boolits and see where it goes.

One real surprise today was had on the 200 yd. range. After high power practice I took out the BFR and took a couple of shots at the standard SR 200 yd. target. Using my 50 yd. sight settings I shot at the top of the target frame from a prone position and got a 6 o'clock 8. My second and last shot was taken aiming about 6" above the target frame producing an X. This revolver is still surprising me.

John

[Frank]

Are you casting, or is it store bought?

[Johnw...ski]

Are you casting, or is it store bought?

Hi Frank,

These are bought. With high power season started I won't be casting untill fall. Do you and .44 man have a favorite mold for this gun?

John

[44man]

Hi Frank,

These are bought. With high power season started I won't be casting untill fall. Do you and .44 man have a favorite mold for this gun?

John
A warning for you if I have not said it before.
Do not download the SR4759 too much and 27.5 gr with that boolit can give you trouble. It can fail to ignite and stick a boolit in the bore so be careful and make sure they all sound and feel the same.
That is why I use 28.5 gr with a 420 gr. I found a boolit change can tolerate a little reduction but others will not even if the same weight.
It is hard to find load info for short barrels and it took a lot of work to make my revolver work.
Next the boolit needs to be hard because of the long jump and I use water dropped WW metal as my softest for target.
50-50 needs to be oven hardened and still gives me fliers but is better for deer.
I made my own molds plus I have tested others but have no molds for them.
These are all the different ones my gun will shoot. The gun is very forgiving about boolit choice.

[44man]

I forgot to mention the gun works best with a .459" boolit so be careful if you buy a mold that drops .457" like a lot of them do. Mold makers are stuck on boolit sizes that would not even work in old rifles.
Frank has some decent molds and he can tell you about them. I have shot some of his boolits.

[Frank]

44man:
A warning for you if I have not said it before.
Do not download the SR4759 too much and 27.5 gr with that boolit can give you trouble. It can fail to ignite and stick a boolit in the bore so be careful and make sure they all sound and feel the same.

Why does Lyman list for a 425 grn boolit 23 grns of SR4759? Why does RCBS show list 26-28 grns for their 425? The first trapdoor, the 2nd is Marlin load.

Montana Bullet Works makes good boolits. You're best bet there might be GC 350 grn and up, (HT) .459. I tried the RCBS 300 FN GC boolit (mold) and it doesnt' shoot. I think the BFR likes heavier boolits with wide flat noses, no SWC for this baby. It's a hunting platform, it likes hunting boolits.

[44man]

44man:
Why does Lyman list for a 425 grn boolit 23 grns of SR4759? Why does RCBS show list 26-28 grns for their 425? The first trapdoor, the 2nd is Marlin load.

Montana Bullet Works makes good boolits. You're best bet there might be GC 350 grn and up, (HT) .459. I tried the RCBS 300 FN GC boolit (mold) and it doesnt' shoot. I think the BFR likes heavier boolits with wide flat noses, no SWC for this baby. It's a hunting platform, it likes hunting boolits.
Rifles are different, boolits are held back by rifling enough plus they use rifle primers.
The BFR 45-70 is not set up for rifle primers and trying them made accuracy suck anyway. The boolit has a long run to the rifling and a rifle primer likes to push everything out of the brass too quick.
The gun WILL fire them but it should have a 28# mainspring.
I can only tell you that a 420 gr boolit with 27 gr stuck 2 boolits in my bore.
If you think I am going to 23 gr, you must be kidding!
Besides that, I don't trust ANY Lyman loads.
Hodgdon has pistol loads for the 45-70---ALL long barrel PISTOL loads with powders that are too slow. Nothing for a revolver. I can't see any of the loads even working in a 15" barrel. 4189, 4595 and Varget. Varget actually can work for some strange reason.
If I could only have 3 powders, they would be 296, SR4759 and Varget.
I even use Varget in my 10" 7R and 7BR after Hodgdon said it can't work. 3/8" groups at 50 yards with open sights.

[Frank]

44man:
I can only tell you that a 420 gr boolit with 27 gr stuck 2 boolits in my bore.
I haven't had any problems, but it could be right on the edge. I'll take a look.

Varget actually can work for some strange reason.
If I could only have 3 powders, they would be 296, SR4759 and Varget.
I even use Varget in my 10" 7R and 7BR after Hodgdon said it can't work. 3/8" groups at 50 yards with open sights.
44man, what kind of Varget load are you talking about?

[Swede44mag]

In the past I tried to buy a 454 casull rifle and ended up with a 45-70 Marlin Stainless Steel Lever eveloution.
At the time I read that the 45-70 built less pressure than the 454 casull is this so?

I have often thought about buying the BFR in 45-70 to play and hunt deer with.
I seen a BFR at Gander Mountain in the past it was BIG is the recoil managable or is it worse than the 454 casull?
I know it probably depends on boolit weight but I have also heard that some powders have a sharper recoil than others.

What has been your experience?

BTW I shoot a 8' Stainless TAURUS Raging bull in 454.
I also shoot a SS VH DW 44mag in 6", 8" & 10" along with several other pistol calibers.

[Johnw...ski]

In the past I tried to buy a 454 casull rifle and ended up with a 45-70 Marlin Stainless Steel Lever eveloution.
At the time I read that the 45-70 built less pressure than the 454 casull is this so?

I have often thought about buying the BFR in 45-70 to play and hunt deer with.
I seen a BFR at Gander Mountain in the past it was BIG is the recoil managable or is it worse than the 454 casull?
I know it probably depends on boolit weight but I have also heard that some powders have a sharper recoil than others.

What has been your experience?

BTW I shoot a 8' Stainless TAURUS Raging bull in 454.
I also shoot a SS VH DW 44mag in 6", 8" & 10" along with several other pistol calibers.

I find the recoil very manageable. Magnum Research likes to see the pressures of the 45-70 under 30,000, half of the .454 Casull's potential pressure.

John

[44man]

In the past I tried to buy a 454 casull rifle and ended up with a 45-70 Marlin Stainless Steel Lever eveloution.
At the time I read that the 45-70 built less pressure than the 454 casull is this so?

I have often thought about buying the BFR in 45-70 to play and hunt deer with.
I seen a BFR at Gander Mountain in the past it was BIG is the recoil managable or is it worse than the 454 casull?
I know it probably depends on boolit weight but I have also heard that some powders have a sharper recoil than others.

What has been your experience?

BTW I shoot a 8' Stainless TAURUS Raging bull in 454.
I also shoot a SS VH DW 44mag in 6", 8" & 10" along with several other pistol calibers.
The big BFR 45-70 has less recoil then a .44 mag. It can exceed a .454 with a lot less pressure. I just love to shoot mine.

[44man]

44man:
I haven't had any problems, but it could be right on the edge. I'll take a look.

44man, what kind of Varget load are you talking about?
I never wrote down the loads I tested in the 45-70. I know it burned clean with decent velocity but I liked 4759 better.
Sorry but I just do not keep everything I test on paper. My bad, I only keep what shoots best.

[Frank]

44man:
I never wrote down the loads I tested in the 45-70. I know it burned clean with decent velocity but I liked 4759 better.
Sorry but I just do not keep everything I test on paper. My bad, I only keep what shoots best.
No problem. [smilie=l: I need to look in the load book.