.45l.c. and .44mag groups

[unclebill]

20 yards

.45l.c. 255gr.rn 8.0 unique

raging bull 8 3/8 bbl.



.44mag 255gr.swc keith 10.0 unique

n.m. blackhawk 6 1/2 bbl.



http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/27chevy-16.jpg

shooting from bags.



i dont feel so good today so i was a little shaky.

when i am at the top of my game i will try again.



i know

excuses excuses....

[unclebill]

before anyone says
why shoot at 25 yards?
or
how come you arent getting 1/2" groups at 200 yards?


1 it is winter so i use an indoor range
2 this is pretty good for me.

[Reloader06]

Nice shooting Bill. What sites?

Matt

[unclebill]

Nice shooting Bill. What sites?

Matt

irons on the 44
2x scope on .45
i do need to see what happens at 50 and 100 with these loads.
no leading,soot on cases and easy recoil

[Trey45]

8gr Unique is one of my favorite loads for a 255gr 45 Colt. Nice shootin'!

[unclebill]

i draw those big ol X's so i can see something to aim at better with irons.
i shoot a lot of barnburners
but i have some lee tumble lube bullets i use for this application in the 45 and i pan lube those keith bullets for the .44

[44man]

before anyone says
why shoot at 25 yards?
or
how come you arent getting 1/2" groups at 200 yards?


1 it is winter so i use an indoor range
2 this is pretty good for me.
Now you know I would never do that to you! :bigsmyl2:
Do you mean to tell me you have sights? I think someone chopped mine off when I wasn't looking, had to go to the red dot. [smilie=s:
No, you did good! That is better then groups printed in gun comics.

[Jack Stanley]

You guys actually use the sights ??? Maybe that's what I've been doing wrong all this time . I saw a guy in a movie once an' he wuz holdin' his pistol sorta on it's side so I tried to do it like that . I wondered why I couldn't hit nothin' [smilie=1:

Jack

[44man]

You guys actually use the sights ??? Maybe that's what I've been doing wrong all this time . I saw a guy in a movie once an' he wuz holdin' his pistol sorta on it's side so I tried to do it like that . I wondered why I couldn't hit nothin' [smilie=1:

Jack
But that's COOOOL, makes a guy look real tough! :Fire:
Like the jerk with pants 10 sizes too big and long hanging down to their butt. Makes it easy for LEO's to chase him down! :drinks:
Wallmartians all.

[DanWalker]

Nice shooting! Glad to see Unique is working for you. Never could get it to do what I wanted. That's why I went to Red Dot . Worked so good I never tried anything else.

[curiousgeorge]

I agree - Nice shooting. My favorite load in the .45 colt and the .44 mag, 8.0 grs Unique.

Also nice to see realistic groups from the days when you are not at your "best of my lifetime" shooting. Every day can't be our best day ever and some days the groups just don't seem to tighten up no matter what I do. We all shoot and I am willing to bet that we all shoot better than what the average non-gun person would expect us to be able to do. I for one am not going to stand at 50 yds and dare you to hit me!

Steve

[DanWalker]

I also agree. Those are more representative groups. I have great difficulty shooting groups of more than 3 shots at a time. After the 3rd shot, the hands tremble or my concentration falters, or some other devilment takes hold, and ruins the group.
I like to shoot 1 or 2 shots, then set the gun down and plink with the 22 a bit, then pick the sixgun back up and squeeze off a couple more rounds. Breaking up the booming with some mild 22 shooting REALLY seems to help keep the flinching at bay.

[Rafe Covington]

Great shooting, like 45 Colt alot myself.

Rafe Covington:redneck:

[unclebill]

thanks fellas
i like showing my real world groups.
because then when i really DO have a stellar day.
i can show it to you guys and feel good about my progress.
44 man
i have found it isnt terribly hard to get better groups than the guys in the magazines do.;)
but then again we dont use factory ammo.

[44man]

thanks fellas
i like showing my real world groups.
because then when i really DO have a stellar day.
i can show it to you guys and feel good about my progress.
44 man
i have found it isnt terribly hard to get better groups than the guys in the magazines do.;)
but then again we dont use factory ammo.
Not entirely true. A lot of factory ammo is really good now. It is because we shoot better. My friends and I will out shoot a Ransom Rest time and again.
Your groups are better because you shoot better. Vision is the cross we have to carry. I am 73 and it gets worse all the time and I need new glasses big time.
I never razz a guy for his shooting unless in fun and if you heard my wife all this morning, complaining about everything, please laugh with me because I need it. My little dogs keep me sane! :bigsmyl2:
Maybe booze too! [smilie=s: Darn, they want out again, have to leave.

[ole 5 hole group]

My friends and I will out shoot a Ransom Rest time and again.

If you don't know how to properly set-up a Ransom rest, I suppose you could outshoot it.

Setting up a Ransom rest properly is no small feat but once set-up and used properly, I've never known of a man to outshoot one. You boys just might be one-of-a kind and I tip my hat to ya - or else you're on the sauce and I'll tip my hat to that too.

[felix]

You just might have a new model. The older ones can be outshot by a good shooter, when using powerful revolters for sure. ... felix

[44man]

You just might have a new model. The older ones can be outshot by a good shooter, when using powerful revolters for sure. ... felix
I don't know, never seen a Ransom that would shoot under 1" at 100 yards, yet Whitworth, Bioman and I do it consistently.
Most test groups are shot at 25 yards or less, and if I cock my revolver and throw it on the bench, it might do better then a Ransom.
It is nothing but a very, very, very expensive crutch. I know darn well it can't handle recoil. I don't think ANY gun has consistent recoil with it.

[unclebill]

44 man
what size moa on those red dots of yours?
the ones i see most often are 3 or 5 moa.

[unclebill]

I agree - Nice shooting. My favorite load in the .45 colt and the .44 mag, 8.0 grs Unique.

Also nice to see realistic groups from the days when you are not at your "best of my lifetime" shooting. Every day can't be our best day ever and some days the groups just don't seem to tighten up no matter what I do. We all shoot and I am willing to bet that we all shoot better than what the average non-gun person would expect us to be able to do. I for one am not going to stand at 50 yds and dare you to hit me!

Steve

i am gonna give 8 gr.a try in the 44
the boolits i am fooling with are soft and i was thinking they needed a bit more oomph for obduration.*






* hey i finally got to use a word i leaned here!;-)

[44man]

44 man
what size moa on those red dots of yours?
the ones i see most often are 3 or 5 moa.
My Ultra Dot is 4 MOA in the 30mm but actually looks smaller. My friend bought the 25mm and the dot looks larger then mine.
Targets are easy at 50 yards, I use a white dot large enough to center the red dot into. But 100 on out it gets hard to find a paper target but tin cans and plastic bottles are easy to aim at by setting the dot right on top.

[curiousgeorge]

Uncle Bill,

I have very good results with 8.0 grs Unique with a 429421 boolit that comes out around 255 - 260 grs from whatever mix of wheel weights, battery terminals, medical lead, 22 caliber bullet trap lead, etc. and is a medium "soft". The same mould throws my alloyed mix of what I put together years ago to replicate the Lyman #2 at 248 grs.

Years ago I asked Veral Smith about fitting a particular boolit to a .30-30 throat. He asked what powder I was using and when I told him that it was Unique, his comment was that the pressure spike from Unique was like hitting the base of the boolit with a sledge hammer. I don't know the specifics or if he was 100% correct, but as stated above, I have always had good results in my pistols with the 8.0 gr load and the scrap lead boolit mix. It shoots accurately and I have taken 2 does at 25-30 yards with that load. Complete penetration and deer on the ground within 40 yards of where they were standing.

It just occurred to me that I have never loaded the 248 gr mix with the 8.0 gr load. I always shot it with 20.0 grs 2400. Just 2 Saturdays ago I cast some of those boolits along with several others (see post in "what did you cast today"). I may try it just to see if I get any leading.

Anyway, Uncle Bill, try it and see if it works for you.

Steve

[x101airborne]

I just finished testing a 7 1/2 inch ruger blackhawk in 45 colt with the 45-270-saa and Unique. Ran 7gr, 8gr, 9gr, and 9.5 gr. Boolits weighed 279gr and were 14.2 bhn. Groups at 50 yards off a bench were around 8 inches. Red dot is next, i guess.

[9.3X62AL]

That is mighty fine shooting, Uncle Bill.

My fun load for 44 Magnum is 8.2 grains of Unique under the Lyman #429421. This duplicates "Skeeter's Load" (7.5 grains of Unique) under that same boolit in the 44 Special. These run about 925-950 FPS from 5"-6.5" barrels. In 41 Magnum, I use Lyman #410032 (212 grain SWC) over 8.0 grains of Unique, for the same velocity range. These loads are also my Stake Shoot load at NCBS.

[unclebill]

That is mighty fine shooting, Uncle Bill.

My fun load for 44 Magnum is 8.2 grains of Unique under the Lyman #429421. This duplicates "Skeeter's Load" (7.5 grains of Unique) under that same boolit in the 44 Special. These run about 925-950 FPS from 5"-6.5" barrels. In 41 Magnum, I use Lyman #410032 (212 grain SWC) over 8.0 grains of Unique, for the same velocity range. These loads are also my Stake Shoot load at NCBS.

i have about 300 boolits that look like the Lyman #429421.
will give them a whirl.

[44man]

Uncle Bill,

I have very good results with 8.0 grs Unique with a 429421 boolit that comes out around 255 - 260 grs from whatever mix of wheel weights, battery terminals, medical lead, 22 caliber bullet trap lead, etc. and is a medium "soft". The same mould throws my alloyed mix of what I put together years ago to replicate the Lyman #2 at 248 grs.

Years ago I asked Veral Smith about fitting a particular boolit to a .30-30 throat. He asked what powder I was using and when I told him that it was Unique, his comment was that the pressure spike from Unique was like hitting the base of the boolit with a sledge hammer. I don't know the specifics or if he was 100% correct, but as stated above, I have always had good results in my pistols with the 8.0 gr load and the scrap lead boolit mix. It shoots accurately and I have taken 2 does at 25-30 yards with that load. Complete penetration and deer on the ground within 40 yards of where they were standing.

It just occurred to me that I have never loaded the 248 gr mix with the 8.0 gr load. I always shot it with 20.0 grs 2400. Just 2 Saturdays ago I cast some of those boolits along with several others (see post in "what did you cast today"). I may try it just to see if I get any leading.

Anyway, Uncle Bill, try it and see if it works for you.

Steve
Veral is correct. The faster the powder and the heavier the load, the harder the boolit must be. My best groups with Unique in the .44 were with 28 to 30 BHN.

[unclebill]

tried both calibers @ 50 and 100 yards.
it was disappointing.
i am thinking that both the ruger and the raging bull are happiest with loads that are punishing at both ends.
i have 100 jacketed hornady .45 cal XTP MAG 240 gr. that are designed for hi-power stuff (these boogers are expensive)
and some 317 gr. g/c boolits for the .44mag.that are pretty hard.
i have mag primers and imr4227 and am in search of an accurate load with what i have on the bench now.
my rounds have plenty of neck tension and a good crimp so thats out of the way.

the problem with shooting for groups with either one is it just beats the **** out of me.....


boo hoo
poor me.

[44man]

tried both calibers @ 50 and 100 yards.
it was disappointing.
i am thinking that both the ruger and the raging bull are happiest with loads that are punishing at both ends.
i have 100 jacketed hornady .45 cal XTP MAG 240 gr. that are designed for hi-power stuff (these boogers are expensive)
and some 317 gr. g/c boolits for the .44mag.that are pretty hard.
i have mag primers and imr4227 and am in search of an accurate load with what i have on the bench now.
my rounds have plenty of neck tension and a good crimp so thats out of the way.

the problem with shooting for groups with either one is it just beats the **** out of me.....


boo hoo
poor me.
4227 is VERY accurate in the .44 but will not take a hot gun in that caliber so keep the gun cool. 296 will not change with heat and is accurate.
Dump the mag primers, they will triple groups with any powder in the .44 but the .45 can handle WW primers even though a standard is better. I only move to a LP mag primer with a larger case like the .475 and even the 45-70, .500 JRH and .500 Linebaugh, just use a LP mag.
The primer is so very important for accuracy.

[Frank]

44man:
Dump the mag primers, they will triple groups with any powder in the .44 but the .45 can handle WW primers even though a standard is better. I only move to a LP mag primer with a larger case like the .475 and even the 45-70, .500 JRH and .500 Linebaugh, just use a LP mag.

What if you do a heavy crimp? Seat the boolit long, then wipe the crimp groove clean with alcohol. Then seat it all the way in and give it a good strong crimp. A good crimp has to hold any primer going off.

[44man]

44man:
What if you do a heavy crimp? Seat the boolit long, then wipe the crimp groove clean with alcohol. Then seat it all the way in and give it a good strong crimp. A good crimp has to hold any primer going off.
No, crimp alone does not work. Just crimp enough to fold brass to the bottom of the groove. More can ruin the boolit or bulge brass below the crimp. Just enough so the last boolit does not pull. Even the silly Lee boolits will stay in place.
Boolit weight means a lot and I have trouble holding heavy boolits in the .50 Alaskan. Brass can only hold so much as can case tension. There is a limit.

[Frank]

44man:
No, crimp alone does not work. Just crimp enough to fold brass to the bottom of the groove. More can ruin the boolit or bulge brass below the crimp. Just enough so the last boolit does not pull. Even the silly Lee boolits will stay in place.
Boolit weight means a lot and I have trouble holding heavy boolits in the .50 Alaskan. Brass can only hold so much as can case tension. There is a limit.
So a heavy crimp won't prevent the mag primer from prematurely moving the boolit in the 44 mag or 45 colt. It might work with a Lee factory crimp and condom bullet, since the factory crimp can make a crimp on the bullet. But with hard lead no crimp will be made, the brass will be ruined. Thus, the fold over crimp works best for the boolit. And in the smaller cases, the standard primer remedies the boolit getting started too soon problem. :lovebooli

[44man]

44man:
So a heavy crimp won't prevent the mag primer from prematurely moving the boolit in the 44 mag or 45 colt. It might work with a Lee factory crimp and condom bullet, since the factory crimp can make a crimp on the bullet. But with hard lead no crimp will be made, the brass will be ruined. Thus, the fold over crimp works best for the boolit. And in the smaller cases, the standard primer remedies the boolit getting started too soon problem. :lovebooli
Correct! Crimp has minimal affect on powder burn if the primer pressure exceeds what crimp can hold. Boolits too heavy are going to move with any crimp.
You never want to ruin a boolit with crimp either.
Lead is different then jacketed, tougher bullets too. You CAN hold jacketed tighter. But is there any advantage? I don't know, don't shoot enough of them. But I never crimped jacketed that hard either.
Cast boolits are covered with lube too which makes tension more important. If fellas knew how many of their boolits have left the brass before ignition, they might be surprised. Every case can have a different capacity from that.
Lead too soft will also be a problem. I have picked up too much brass at the range where crimp never opened fully. How did the boolit get out without being sized? The Lee factory crimp die deforms brass badly and a soft boolit can not iron it back. You might as well take a center punch to the brass.
Small, overlooked details that mean a LOT with a revolver.

[Bass Ackward]

It is so easy to test both neck tension and crimp. Just don't put any powder in the case. Use a rod to knock the bullet back out, but before you do, mark the stick with a magic Marker so that you can see how far up it went.

Just don't do this on a clean barrel and expect to make comparisons.

It will show you allot.

One thing that is confounding to me is, if a crimp makes no difference, how is it that is remains crimped with a bullet having gone through. IF a crimp can size a 8BHN bullet, then that is a SUPER crimp in my mind. :grin:

I find that just as much a sign that you have large chambers more than anything else. Cause in my tight chambered, line bore, I never leave a crimp even with pure at any pressure / velocity level.

So crimp can only help if it the brass don't walk away. The bend required is proportional to the free space between the chamber and the loaded round. So brass thickness and bullet diameter also factor in. Not trying to rain on the parade, but it does explain why people see varying results and thus form different opinions.

[44man]

It would take a very large chamber to let a boolit out without removing the crimp and that would show up with case expansion.
The ones I pick up are from factory .38 wad cutter loads with swaged boolits.
I saved the brass for a friend and they chamber in his Freedom.
I have experienced it with my BFR's when experimenting with softer boolits for deer too. I have tight chambers, fired cases will slip into a Freedom.
It happens Bass! [smilie=s: Only takes a few thousandths to reduce a boolit.

[Rodfac]

44Man...you've mentioned that Mag primers are not necessary for the most part; with some slow powders. How do you rate Winchester's Large Pistol with powders like 2400, 296, AA#9 (or Bartletts' equivalent).

I've had good results over the years and for the most part, have always used Winchester's LP. The bulk of my loading though is at the mid range level...800-1200 fps in .44 Mag, .357 Mag, .44 Spl and .41 Mag. My powder of choice for that range and with those calibers is Win 231. To date, leading has not been an issue and my groups run sub-2" at 25 yds. I don't shoot much at the ranges you've mentioned, but am always interested in ideas to reduce my group size and stretch the distance for accuracy. BTW, I'm an iron sight shooter, with 64 yo eyes....

Thanks in advance, and know that I've got a half dozen doc's in my files with your responses to some questions here on the forum...

Regards, Rod

[44man]

44Man...you've mentioned that Mag primers are not necessary for the most part; with some slow powders. How do you rate Winchester's Large Pistol with powders like 2400, 296, AA#9 (or Bartletts' equivalent).

I've had good results over the years and for the most part, have always used Winchester's LP. The bulk of my loading though is at the mid range level...800-1200 fps in .44 Mag, .357 Mag, .44 Spl and .41 Mag. My powder of choice for that range and with those calibers is Win 231. To date, leading has not been an issue and my groups run sub-2" at 25 yds. I don't shoot much at the ranges you've mentioned, but am always interested in ideas to reduce my group size and stretch the distance for accuracy. BTW, I'm an iron sight shooter, with 64 yo eyes....

Thanks in advance, and know that I've got a half dozen doc's in my files with your responses to some questions here on the forum...

Regards, Rod
I feel a LP mag primer is just not needed even with 296 with the .44 or .45. I have had some luck with the WLP in the .45 but it never seems to be consistent.
I prefer primer heat to pressure in the smaller cases. All the years I shot IHMSA with my .44 using the Hornady 240 gr bullets, 296, I used nothing but the Fed 150. I shot many 39's and 40's with them. I shot 79 out of 80 with those loads, missed the last ram, my fault.
Now the .357 with 2400, I would be inclined to use the WSP or a mag primer. SP primers don't have that much force.
There is only one way to find out and that is to test them yourself.
I have done a few thousand side by side tests before picking what works best for me. I usually retest with every bullet or boolit change too.

[NHlever]

I just tried Universal in the .44 Mag recently, and was pleasantly surprised how well it shot in light loads. I know other powders are better suited for that slow push we seek, but I was just playing around with light loads. I used 7.5 grains of the Universal behind the Lyman 429421 and was rewarded with very good groups (for me) at both 25, and 50 yards. The 100 yard butt was pretty well snowed in, and I've got some medical issues that make slogging through the snow kind of hard right now. It seems to shoot better than the old standby Unique, and I've shot a ton of that over the years in various guns.

[ole 5 hole group]

44Man...you've mentioned that Mag primers are not necessary for the most part; with some slow powders. How do you rate Winchester's Large Pistol with powders like 2400, 296, AA#9 (or Bartletts' equivalent).


I feel a LP mag primer is just not needed even with 296 with the .44 or .45. I have had some luck with the WLP in the .45 but it never seems to be consistent.
I prefer primer heat to pressure in the smaller cases. All the years I shot IHMSA with my .44 using the Hornady 240 gr bullets, 296, I used nothing but the Fed 150.

I was probably dropped on my head as a baby, so please take that into consideration BUT it is my understanding that when using the Federal large pistol magnum primer (155) - the only difference is you’re getting a thicker cup, as the brisance level is the same as the standard primer (150). Does that not mean you can interchange the primers with no rise in pressure/velocity etc??

Federal advised me in an e-mail that I could interchange the 2 primers – the magnum primer is better suited to higher pressure loads if piercing the primer is a concern. I saw a similar e-mail from Remington relative to their small pistol primers. If you have any doubts I strongly urge you to e-mail Federal, as they will get back to you within a week. I e-mailed Remington a month or better now asking for an update but they have not replied, as of this date.

Sooo, I believe some revolvers just “prefer” a certain brand over another but if we are talking about Federal & Remington pistol primers what is the actual difference in performance, such as velocity & pressure, between the Federal 150 & 155 in your revolvers?

Speaking for myself, I've found basically no difference between the Fed 150, Fed 155 and the WLP in terms of velocity and I can shoot all three about as poorly – HOWEVER, I prefer the WLP and after speaking with John Linebaugh I feel even better about the WLP as the best all-around large pistol primer for ME – your mileage may vary.

This AM I received this response from Remington:
Tech responding showed the name Sara - this was the response:
"Thank you for your email. Remington magnum primers do have a thicker cup and are slightly hotter than standard primers. The 2 1/2 large pistol primers are recommended for magnum rounds such as .41 Remington Magnum, .44 Remington Magnum, etc."

They didn't address my question head-on but close enough for Gov't. work - here was my question:
"I would like some clarification on your primers. I've been previously advised that the only difference between your standard & magnum small pistol primers is cup thickness and there is no difference in the brisance level. Is this information correct? And I've also been advised that in a high pressure round the magnum primer should be used because the magnum primer has a thicker cup and will not experience a pierced primer in a properly functioning handgun.

Your company does not show a magnum primer for the large pistol - is your 7 1/2 primer recommended for a revolver shooting high pressure loads using a large pistol primer pocket and if so, is the brisance level any different in the 7 1/2 than the 2 1/2 primer?

Thank You in advance for any information shared,"

[44man]

I was probably dropped on my head as a baby, so please take that into consideration BUT it is my understanding that when using the Federal large pistol magnum primer (155) - the only difference is you’re getting a thicker cup, as the brisance level is the same as the standard primer (150). Does that not mean you can interchange the primers with no rise in pressure/velocity etc??

Federal advised me in an e-mail that I could interchange the 2 primers – the magnum primer is better suited to higher pressure loads if piercing the primer is a concern. I saw a similar e-mail from Remington relative to their small pistol primers. If you have any doubts I strongly urge you to e-mail Federal, as they will get back to you within a week. I e-mailed Remington a month or better now asking for an update but they have not replied, as of this date.

Sooo, I believe some revolvers just “prefer” a certain brand over another but if we are talking about Federal & Remington pistol primers what is the actual difference in performance, such as velocity & pressure, between the Federal 150 & 155 in your revolvers?

Speaking for myself, I've found basically no difference between the Fed 150, Fed 155 and the WLP in terms of velocity and I can shoot all three about as poorly – HOWEVER, I prefer the WLP and after speaking with John Linebaugh I feel even better about the WLP as the best all-around large pistol primer for ME – your mileage may vary.
I use over power mainsprings in all of my revolvers so there is no problem even with LR primers.
Yet the LP mag triples my groups and it does not matter what brand they are.
Try the .475 with the Fed 150 and the 155. That will tell you that the 155 is better but with the .44, the 150 is better. It has nothing to do with cup thickness. Primer mix or quantity is not the same.