45LC vs. 45/70 for african game.

[DanWalker]

Hi,
Just sitting here at work, bored and tossing around ideas.
I currently have a win 94 trapper in 45 colt that I've killed several deer and hogs with. My go to load for hard to kill stuff is a 320gr wfngc cast from a LEE mould, and pushed to 1500fps with a stiff dose of 2400.
I'm planning a trip to africa, either next spring or the following year,(depending on when there's an opening for the next levergunners safari.) My question is this. What would I gain by going with a 45/70 over my current setup? What can I hunt with a 45/70 that I might be undergunned for with my 45 colt?
I realize you can load a 45/70 in a modern levergun up to some awful stout levels, but is it really necessary? Has anyone here had a 320 grain cast bullet stop inside an animal? I imagine my 45 load is the equivalent of a mild 454 casull load fired from a handgun.
I realize the higher velocity of the 45/70 will allow for longer shots, but I normally shoot from 150 or less anyhow. That's part of the attraction of hunting with a levergun to me.
Thanks in advance,
Dan

[45 2.1]

Your decision depends entirely on what size game you intend to hunt and the distances you will get to shoot them at. Brian Pierce wrote a two issue african hunt with the 4570 that drew much comment some time ago in handloader or rifle magazine. You should do fine with much of the small to medium size animals, but I would be cautious of trying for any of the tough, hard to put down varieties. The 4570 just begins where your 45 Colt levergun stops.

[chuckles]

45 2.1 wrote: [QUOTE][I would be cautious of trying for any of the tough, hard to put down varieties./QUOTE]

I agree. To me anything that would be considered "dangerous" game or likely to be real aggressive, I want a .416 Rigby at least. Maybe a sidearm in .45 Colt but if a Cape Buffalo gets wind of me, and all I have is a .45 Colt, I'd probably be more likely to use it to help me clmb a tree!:mrgreen:

[wills]

Have you considered discussing the matter with your prospective guide/PH (or whatever they're called)?

This may be tangentially relevant
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=753

[Four Fingers of Death]

I would contact your guide, my friend who went to Africa earlier this year, is absolutely poison with his 3006 and they wouldn't let him bring it. Eventually they let him bring a 338WM after a call recommending him from a guy who knew the safari company well. They were not interested in anything less than 375H&H and then if they wern't satisfied with your loads at their range, they suplied factory Holland and Holland stuff and tacked it onto your tab, OUCH!!!!

Their explaniation: rather be guiding than sitting around hospitals waiting for you to get your sorry ass stitched up. :-D

[Topper]

If you haven't seen it, here a pretty serious video on hunting dangerous game.
http://www.nitroexpresssafaris.com/sullivan/DeathAtMyFeet/go

[waksupi]

Topper, I've seen Sullivan's films. He is a dangerous, suicidal type, who will eventually get himself, or a client killed. BUT, they were interesting to watch!
;o)

[DanWalker]

Yowza! What was that guy hunting Mick? I just want to go ever and shoot an impala and maybe a couple of the larger plains species like kudu and oryc. I have no desire to tangle with buff or any of the dangerous stuff. I just have seen where people have gone over there and killed some awful big critters with 454's and i just reasoned that my 45LC rifle was loaded to medium level 454 power. I'm not going over to see how many heads I can collect. I just want to get out in the bush and HUNT. I'd rather take home a few lesser trophies that I'd earned by hard hunting than a whole truckload of stuff I'd plugged from the back of a hunting car. Perhaps I am asking the wrong question. What I want to know is, If I shoot the above mentioned animals in the proper spot, with the above mentioned bullet at the described velocity, will I lose the animal? I'm a bowhunter at heart, and prefer to see how close I can get BEFORE shooting. If I can't get within 100 yards of an animal I reckon I'll just go and try to find another one that i can get that close to.
Sure this may cost me some fine trophies on my wall, but I'll still have the memories of a great hunt. To me that's what it's all about anyways. If i was guaranteed to kill every animal I wanted, I wouldn't go.

[KYCaster]

One of my customers took some of my boolits to Africa about eight years ago and did very well with them. They were .44cal., 310gr. truncated cone from a SSK mold. Alloy was 92-6-2. He used a scoped Ruger Super Red Hawk. The guy who loaded the ammo for him didn't own a chronograph and claimed some outrageous velocity, but if he was breaking 1300fps I'd be amazed.

He took several head of plains game, including Warthog, Greater Kudu, Eland, Zebra and Blue Wildebeast. All of them, except the Zebra were one shot kills. All of the shots were through and through, except for the Wildebeast. That one entered the rump on the left side, went directly through the ball and socket hip joint and was recovered from the heart. Close to four feet of penetration, and the boolit was very slightly deformed with a couple of chips off the edge of the meplat.

Can your 45 Colt do that?......I don't see why not.....I'd sure like to try it! It's your money you're spending for the hunt, you should get what you want. Communication with the PH is the key. Tell him what you want to do and if he doesn't like it, try another.

Do you need a spotter? A gun bearer?.......I'm available.......if transportation is a problem, I think I could fit in a large suitcase.......lemme know, I'd like to help.

Jerry

[Four Fingers of Death]

The hunt he was on included kudu, warthog, zebra, wilderbeast and several antilope types from memory.

I'm not saying it won't work, I was just pointing out that you might be in for a surprise if you don't talk to your guide first.


Good on ya Topper, whateve it is we are talking about on this board, it always comes down to buying something, :-(

MIck.

[DanWalker]

Actually, I'd love some company. Who's up for it?
It'd be neat to get a group together and go over for a hunt of a lifetime.
My plan, before I got this job, was to take out a loan to pay for the trip. Just treat it like a car payment.
Well, any takers?
I'm figuring 6 months from now at the earliest, perhaps even the following year, depending on finances. If we went as a group we could probably save a bit too as we could probably get a group rate from the outfitter.

[BAGTIC]

I have a Winchester M94 Trapper in .45 Colt. I ground the shoulder back on the cartridge follower until it chambers a COL of 1.85 inch. That results in 25-30 % increase in powder capacity. At .45 +P pressure levels (32,000 psi +/-) it will equal factory 45/70 300 grain loads ... 1800 fps. It still reliably chambered standard length cartridges, even interchangeably (mixed).

[wills]

But, factory 45-70's (most of them) dont come anywhere near what can be acheived with handloads intended for a modern rifle, like a marlin or ruger #1.

[DanWalker]

But, factory 45-70's (most of them) dont come anywhere near what can be acheived with handloads intended for a modern rifle, like a marlin or ruger #1.

Quite right sir. You'll get no argument from me about the awesome power one can acheive with the 45/70. I just wonder how much of that power is really usable.
Garrett advertises full length penetration on Cape buffalo with his hammerhead ammo. The recoil level of that load in a light lever gun has got to be quite an experience as well.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to Africa to pull off some "stunt" by shooting my game with a weakly loaded 45LC levergun. I'm just trying to gather some information from those of you with more 45/70 experience than me. I'd just like to know where the upper limit is with this cartridge when it comes to game harvesting.
The way I understand it, incapacitation of game is more a function of meplat diameter than it is of velocity. If I punch a 320 grain wfngc through the shoulders of an animal and it buries itself 12" in the dirt on the offside of the animal, will it be any less dead than one shot the same way with a boolit weighing 100 grains more, that buries itself 18" in the dirt on the other side?
I see on the webpages for these safari outfits, pics of folks with dead kudu,impala, warthogs,etc.., all killed with 06's and the like, shooting jacketed bullets. I KNOW, from firsthand experience that my 45 is just as effective as these rounds on game shot here in the states..
Please, pick my logic apart. I enjoy discussions like this. I never fail to learn from them.
Just trying to figure out, other than kicking me harder and beinga bit heavier to lug around, what will a 45/70 do that my 45LC won't?

[Bullshop]

If I punch a 320 grain wfngc through the shoulders of an animal and it buries itself 12" in the dirt on the offside of the animal, will it be any less dead than one shot the same way with a boolit weighing 100 grains more, that buries itself 18" in the dirt on the other side?

No less dead no but there is a big difference. The diameter of the perminent wound channel will be different. If both boolits have the same meplate and impact at the same velocity the heavier boolit will create a larger perminent wound channel because it will maintane a higher terminal velocity due to its greater momentum. With exactly the same hit I would think this may cause an animal to expire more quickly due to more rapid blood loss and blood pressure loss and a greater amount of trauma to the surrounding tissue.
Your right about the bigger boolit not being needed for total penitration but the heavier boolits just plain make a bigger hole. Of cource we are talking about nonexpanding boolits although the same will be true to a greater degree with expanding boolits.
So lets say you can get 1700 fps from your 45 Colt with a 300gn boolit and you can get 1700 fps from your 45/70 with a 400gn bullet and with the same hit both pass completely through I would expect to see greater killing effect from the 45/70.
This at least is my belief from my own experiance.
BIC/BS

[DanWalker]

IThe diameter of the perminent wound channel will be different. If both boolits have the same meplate and impact at the same velocity the heavier boolit will create a larger perminent wound channel because it will maintane a higher terminal velocity due to its greater momentum. With exactly the same hit I would think this may cause an animal to expire more quickly due to more rapid blood loss and blood pressure loss and a greater amount of trauma to the surrounding tissue.
Your right about the bigger boolit not being needed for total penitration but the heavier boolits just plain make a bigger hole. Of cource we are talking about nonexpanding boolits although the same will be true to a greater degree with expanding boolits.
So lets say you can get 1700 fps from your 45 Colt with a 300gn boolit and you can get 1700 fps from your 45/70 with a 400gn bullet and with the same hit both pass completely through I would expect to see greater killing effect from the 45/70.
This at least is my belief from my own experiance.
BIC/BS
Any way to test this? Other than shooting animals with each caliber and comparing results?
Would this difference be apparent in wet newsprint or phonebooks?
This sounds like an intersting theory to test.
Heck, I'll probably buy a 45/70 just to find out....

[Bass Ackward]

Heck, I'll probably buy a 45/70 just to find out....

Dan,

Well, I be dog gone. Was wondering why you asked the question. Now you are going to get the answer you are seeking. Buy and you shall find out.

[45 2.1]

The question is, what do want to accomplish. You want to shoot lengthwise thru an animal to kill it. You want to put a heavy expanding slug thru the heart lungs or what. Lots of ways to kill something, define how your going to do it if you want to use a basic 454 strength load.

[DanWalker]

The question is, what do want to accomplish. You want to shoot lengthwise thru an animal to kill it. You want to put a heavy expanding slug thru the heart lungs or what. Lots of ways to kill something, define how your going to do it if you want to use a basic 454 strength load.

Like most of the shots I take with cast loads, I'll try to line up the exit with the offside shoulder on quartering away shots. I'll try for both shoulders on broadside shots. I'm not much of a fan of center chest shots or texas heart shots. Hitting them in the butts or in the guts isn't my cup of tea.
Most of the time I try for a hear/lung shot that takes at least one shoulder out.
Do I have the discipline to wait for these shots to present themselves? I beleive I do.
I'm not planning on racking up a huge body count while over there. I'm going for the experience of hunting africa. I want to use my favorite rifle to do it with. That way, in later years, when I hoist my trusty little "thumper" carbine to my shoulder, and squint through the peep sight, the memories of this grand adventure will come wafting back into my minds eye, and remind me that sometimes, dreams can come true.
What I'm really asking you guys is if you think there's any real reason why this gun which I've had for years, and have killed a bunch of game with, to include charging feral hogs intent on rearranging my anatomy, will not suffice for short range plains game, hunted on foot, in the brush.
Thanks,
Dan

[45 2.1]

What I'm really asking you guys is if you think there's any real reason why this gun which I've had for years, and have killed a bunch of game with, to include charging feral hogs intent on rearranging my anatomy, will not suffice for short range plains game, hunted on foot, in the brush.
Thanks, Dan

The gun will do short range on the game that isn't "Tough". Now you need to convince the guide of your intent and capabilities.

[SharpsShooter]

Dan,

The 45-70 is the only choice when it comes to Africa game. To use even a heavily loaded light weight boolit in the 45lc will not even begin to give you the terminal results you will require. The 45-70 with 450+ grain boolits loaded to 1800-1900fps and even above in strong actions will make a 45lc look like a cat sneeze. You are planning a hunt of a lifetime and it seems to me you would be doing yourself a disservice by attempting it with a sub caliber load.

SS

[wills]

Actually, I'd love some company. Who's up for it?
It'd be neat to get a group together and go over for a hunt of a lifetime.
My plan, before I got this job, was to take out a loan to pay for the trip. Just treat it like a car payment.
Well, any takers?
I'm figuring 6 months from now at the earliest, perhaps even the following year, depending on finances. If we went as a group we could probably save a bit too as we could probably get a group rate from the outfitter.

How much does something like that cost? Start saving for it now, write a check each month and put it in a dedicated account, you get the benefit of earning some interest instead of paying it.

[Bullshop]

Any way to test this? Other than shooting animals with each caliber and comparing results?
Would this difference be apparent in wet newsprint or phonebooks?
This sounds like an intersting theory to test.
Heck, I'll probably buy a 45/70 just to find out....

Some things for ya to think about. Drop a marble in some mud and see what happens. Now shoot that marble from a sling shot into the mud, bigger splash right, why?
Try a 22wrm 40gn fmj on a few jack rabbits at about 100 yards and you will see that it kills them just fine. Now try the same 40gn fmj from a 22/250 at about 4000 fps on the same rabbits or rather rabbits just like them and what do you think will happen, why?
You will say the differance in performance is due to the higher velocity right? Well I am saying the same thing. The difference I had mentioned between the two boolit weights is due to the higher terminal velocity due to its greater momentum of the heavier boolit.
You asked about a test and the answer is I believe yes. It was written up in an old handloader from the 70's by I think Bob Hagel or possibly John Whooters.
He used wet paper as a media then cast the cavities then used water displacment do measure the volume of the casting.
What you will see is at equal velocity the heavier boolit will drive a wider channel deeper into the media with little tapering of the channel. When driven to higher velocity the lighter boolit will initialy make a wider channel but because it slows faster the channel will taper to a lesser volume.
If you drive the lighter boolit enough faster than the heavier one you may equal the volume of the channel but the channels will be shapped differently. The lighter will start out wider then taper off looking like a cone. The heavier will be more uniform in diameter for a greater depth. The lighter if faster with initial larger channel may prove more devestating on certain shots from certain angles but I believe the heavier will proove more consistant from any angle.
Another source of info on this is from Veral Smith from his book, jacketed performance with cast bullets, still available. See what he says about angle of displacment of tissue and hydraulic force. The higher the terminal velocity the steaper the angle of displacment, the steeper the angle of displacment the wider the channel.
This is exactly why small caliber high velocity expanding bullets kill well they create a high volume although short wound channel.
So you see that velocity itself is not the criticle factor in killing potencial but more importantly its the retained velocity of the projectile while its in the penitrating process. Thats why you see such a rave for premium bullets that retain as much weight as possible, momentum.
Again this is my personal view on this and it would be a long hard haul to make me see differently.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

OH yea if you want to test this from your new 45/70 the trio of boolits from RCBS at 325, 425, and 525gn all with exactly the same meplate would be perfect. Be sure to make them hard so they dont expand so to keep things on even ground. I have all three if your interested.
BIC/BS

[montana_charlie]

Would this difference be apparent in wet newsprint or phonebooks?
Heck, I'll probably buy a 45/70 just to find out....
As was noted by the digit-challenged Aussie, it always gets down to buying something...

I'm going for the experience of hunting africa. I want to use my favorite rifle to do it with. That way, in later years...
Here you seem have it boiled down to the essence of the desire.
You want that particular rifle to travel to Africa, accompanied by you.
No other weapon would actually be 'the right one' for the trip you envision.
So, while it's fun to 'talk it over with the guys', the folks who host the hunts are the ones you need to 'get permission from' (I hated typing that phrase).

If your pistol-caliber-rifle doesn't sufficiently impress them, you then have to decide if it's worthwhile going...while your 'hunting buddy' stays home...and carrying that .45/70 phonebook rifle, instead.
CM

[Pilgrim]

Do yourself a favor...if you are not a member of the Safari Club International, join the organization. Its aroudn $50 per year. Then go to the annual convention in Reno, NV the last of January 2007 (24th to 27th or thereabouts) . The convention is 4 days, costs about $450 for all four days, and is worth every penny. There will be some 1300 or more vendors covering way over 130,000 sq ft of floor space. Exhibitions, talks, etc. I suspect nearly every outfit worth talking to that hunts Africa will be represented. Nearly every other continent and country is also well represented. Nobody from Antartica that I noticed, anyway :o) The Professional Hunters are the guys that are at the booths and you can talk to them face to face, for hours if you wish and they have the time. Brochures are available from everybody. You are given a satchel at the start of the convention to carry your "stuff" in as you go. I filled mine three or four times at the last convention. Talk to as many of the PH's as you can and you might even find the outfitter you want to hunt with. You can probably even see if a "deal" can be struck for a bunch of cast boolit hunters hunting plains game. The reason I say to join the SCI is not only for the good they do, but because this year, for the first time, you must be a member to attend the convention. For sure by the end of the convention you will know if anybody will entertain you and your '92 .45 Colt.

I will be going to the convention this year for the second time. My wife will go with me this time simply to see the "stuff". maybe even buy some clothes or jewelery, or ?? The convention must be seen to be believed. I rather suspect from your comments that you are in the same financial category as I am, and I suspect most on this board are. That is, ordinary folk, with ordinary financial means. At the convention you will begin to see how the other half lives. It is amazing what they buy, and what kinds of resources they have available to themselves. How about an "off the shelf" rifle for $150,000? Marked sold by the 3rd day of the convention! Boss double rifle in .470 Nitro Express for those who are curious). How about a bolt action double rifle? Two bolts, two barrels, one bolt handle. How about a rifle with a price tag on the other side of $300,000? Diamonds, furs, furniture, artwork, mounts of evey kind of critter you can imagine. There is also lots of stuff for us ordinary folk that is available from clothing to knives, to books, to you name it (rifles and shotguns included). Silent auctions, live auctions, retail sales, and on and on.

I went last year because I had decided I wanted to buy a double rifle before I croaked, and that convention is the place to talk to people about those rifles, see many dozens (100's) of them, handle them (both new and used), figure out the pros and cons of each make, cartridge, etc. I learned a bunch, and in fact one of the dealers cut me a nice deal and I bought one. You can't take a gun home from the show. SCI policy is that the dealer sends it to your designated FFL after the show is over. That keeps SCI out of trouble.

Anyway, if you want to hunt Africa, the annual SCI convention is the place to start IMO....FWIW Pilgrim

[DanWalker]

Here’s some interesting information I dug up while researching the web.
“Using the same Freedom Arms .454, I clocked out all of Cor-Bon's .454 offerings. The 265 gr. bonded core hit 1,650 fps, the 285 bonded core hit 1,600 fps, the 300 JSP hit 1,600 fps, the 320 gr. Penetrator hit 1,550 fps and the 360 gr. Penetrator hit 1,450 fps. Again, these loads are for deepest penetration on the toughest game.”
“Buffalo Bore also has .454 loads with a 325 gr. hard cast LBT at 1,525 fps and a 300 gr. Speer PSP at 1500 fps. The 325 gr. is designed for use on game up to 2,000 lbs. while the 300 gr. should be restricted to game up to about 1,500 lbs.” (John Taffin, American Handgunner, Annual 2000)
The above described loads are fired from a 454 casull handgun. My win 94 comes to within 25fps of the corbon load and 50fps of the buffalo bore load.
Again, to recap. My load is: 320 gr wfngc cast from water quenched wheelweights and pushed by 20 grains of 2400 to a chronographed velocity of 1500fps from my 16” barrel.
So, following this line of reasoning do we all agree that my 45colt rifle produces the same power as a 454 casull revolver? That is to say, when this revolver is firing the above described loads. If so, then any animal that can be cleanly taken with a 454 and the above loads should be fair game for my rifle under similar circumstances, correct?
Please check out the following website.
http://www.freedomarms.com/yourSucc.html
Take a look at the animals killed with the 454 and the 320 grain and 325 grain loads.
Please take note of the Cape buffalo,Rhino, and Wildebeast all dispatched with this load.
Are these animals the results of outlandish stunts performed by irresponsible individuals?
Here’s another interesting article:
http://www.lasc.us/AfricanHunt-CastBullets.htm
Interesting stuff, to be sure.
Again, I await your input and criticisms on my logic.
Thank you all again for all the great responses to my questions.
As to going to the SCI convention, that’s impossible for me. I work as an engineer for a directional drilling company and am away from home 20+ days a month with no real set schedule. This crazy work schedule is why I’m trying to plan my safari as far in advance as I can so that I’ll be able to reserve the vacation time.

p.s.
I just cut a deal for a marlin 1895 in 45/70 that will be waiting for me when I get home. I reckon I'll drag it along to africa as a backup rifle.

[Piglead]

In near 40yrs of Pro Shooting , I've been horned & tap danced on by a Water Buff & kicked by a camel that I was sure was dead ! Both times it was my carelesness that near killed me ! I have learnt over the years that if it can kill, mame & generaly ruin a good day out ! Use enough Gun & more importantly be able to place your shot where it's going to do the job ! A gut shot with a 20mm is as effective as a head shot with a .22lr ! on something bigger & nastier than you ! On saying this though . Remember there is the error factor of excitement ,Nerves, ect! I go to work & it's just another night in the office ! It's what I do . I mean no offense ,but I've seen Shooters ,who have missed vital regions of a animal ,who were good shots, but were excited at the sight of the animal they were hunting ! I'd steer towards the insurance of the 45-70 .

Dave

[Four Fingers of Death]

Pilgrim, I've dancing around gunna go to the SCI convention here in Australia for many years. I'll have to do it this year, the convention comes up in January here (summer). I used to be in the cavalry, but the way I'm always gunna do something you'd think I was a gunna from the artillery!

[Bass Ackward]

Are these animals the results of outlandish stunts performed by irresponsible individuals? Again, I await your input and criticisms on my logic.

p.s.
I just cut a deal for a marlin 1895 in 45/70 that will be waiting for me when I get home. I reckon I'll drag it along to africa as a backup rifle.


Dan,

You are asking questions that may be immaterial if you can't find a guide trusting enough in "your" abilities to even use the 45-70 with cast.

The last statement you made is going to show you the difference in what you are asking. The knowledge it will impart will enable YOU to make the decision you seek.

[montana_charlie]

p.s.I just cut a deal for a marlin 1895 in 45/70 that will be waiting for me when I get home. I reckon I'll drag it along to africa as a backup rifle.
You'll probably be very happy to have it nearby, if the guide puts you within range of a herd of phonebooks (or maybe that's 'telebok')...
CM

[Bullshop]

I dont think anyone said that the 454 level loads wouldnt get the job done. Your not hearing what you want to hear and I see its not settling well. I have taken way too much game with a Marlin 44 mag to ever think your set up wont do the same. I thought your question was a" SO WHATS THE DIFFERENCE" and thats what I and others have tried to point out. I think you wanted to hear that your 45 colt is just as good as a bigger cartridge in killing potencial but you didnt get what you wanted and your not happy with the answer. The fact is the bigger cartridge that can push a heavier boolit to equal velocity has the greater killing potencial period! I think you knew the answer before you asked. My opinion, for the game you decribed I think the hot 45 colt is perfect at close range. As I said the Marlin in 44 mag was prolly my favorite close range deer rifle, but I dont think thats what you asked. I think you asked if it could equal a bigger cartridge and the answer will always be no!
BIC/BS

[DanWalker]

I dont think anyone said that the 454 level loads wouldnt get the job done. Your not hearing what you want to hear and I see its not settling well. I have taken way too much game with a Marlin 44 mag to ever think your set up wont do the same. I thought your question was a" SO WHATS THE DIFFERENCE" and thats what I and others have tried to point out. I think you wanted to hear that your 45 colt is just as good as a bigger cartridge in killing potencial but you didnt get what you wanted and your not happy with the answer. The fact is the bigger cartridge that can push a heavier boolit to equal velocity has the greater killing potencial period! I think you knew the answer before you asked. My opinion, for the game you decribed I think the hot 45 colt is perfect at close range. As I said the Marlin in 44 mag was prolly my favorite close range deer rifle, but I dont think thats what you asked. I think you asked if it could equal a bigger cartridge and the answer will always be no!
BIC/BS

I guess I asked my question rather poorly.
Nope, never would begin to claim a 45LC is anywhere near as powerful as a 45/70.
I'm not making myself too clear, am I?
Wasn't really looking for a certain answer. I just wanted to see what people thought.
I think we agree on most points, we're just saying it in different ways.
I agree that a 45/70 will always be more powerful than a 45LC. The power of the top 45/70 loads is simply stunning.
The point I was trying to make was that I thought a 45LC would get the job done on the animals I plan on hunting while I'm there.
There's no doubt that a load from a 45/70 that is capable of full length penetration on a cape buff is powerful enough for impala,warthogs, kudu,etc..
I was just looking for opinions on the suitability of the 45LC for plains game at short range when loaded to 454 velocities. My own experience with it on big gme here in the states leads me to beleive that it would be, but I've never shot any african game before.
Again, sorry for any misunderstandings my poor communications skills may have caused. Maybe I should've titled my post like one of my English assignments from back in my school days....."Using your own experiences, compare and contrast the terminal effects on african plains game at under 150 yards of the 45LC when firing a 320 grain cast boolit at 454 casull velocities, with a 45/70 firing a 405 grain cast boolit at a velocity that will not induce flinching by a guy with a sissy shoulder."

Thank you all for all the great replies to my poorly worded questions. I love coming here and swapping Ideas and learning. It sure makes these long nights out here on the rigs a heck of a lot more tolerable.
Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving to you all,
Dan

[Bullshop]

You saw what my opinion is, again I think your 94/45 would be perfect for game up to the size of elk at close range. Personaly I would try to keep shots on the shy side of 100 yards though, more like 75. Them short for caliber WFN boolit loose velocity fast. Out at 150 they dont have near what they have at 75. Will they still penitrate at 150, yup sure nuf but we get right back to the terminal velocity thing, same boolit but different size hole.
Sure would like to be there with ya when ya go. If I could and I had to pick a rifle with boolits it would be my newish Marlin xlr 45/70 or my rebarreld B78 Browning 405 win. Not saying there better just that they are at the top of my luv list lately.
BIC/BS

[DanWalker]

Sure would like to be there with ya when ya go.
Heck pard, start throwing pennies in a jar. It'll be 18 months before I plan on going.
For anyone else considering this trip, you could always do it the way I planned on doing it before I got a great paying job. Take out a loan for 60 months.
I really would love it if a few of us could go together. A hunting camp is so much better when it's full of old friends.

[Bullshop]

Even if I could save the money when the time came I wouldnt be able to spend it on myself, too much guilt. We have 7 kids between 13 years and three weeks. If your not a father I dont know if you can understand what I am trying to say, but when there is not enough for everyone the little ones get first.
We do buy guns when possible for resale from our shop but I figure thats money saved not spent. Been doing that for a long time. I always figured when I have some money I better spend it on something before I spend it on nothing.
BIC/BS

[DanWalker]

7 kids? GOD BLESS YOU!
I have a 14 year old daughter.
We wanted more, but after 2 miscarriages, we decided it just wasn't in God's plan for us.

[DanWalker]

For anyone who might be interested, here's a link to an outfit I've heard great things about on another forum.
The rates listed are for a group package they put together for these guys.
http://www.leverguns.com/safari2007.htm

[Four Fingers of Death]

Dan. when my wife fell pregnant with our third child in a bit over two years (some time ago), I phoned my Dad to tell him. His answer (always a wise a$$ with a dry sense of humour) was, "haven't you figured out what's causing it yet?'

Good on ya Dan, I let a lot of good rifles go to feed and clothe kids, just something you gotta do.
Mick.

[lovedogs]

Don't know what time of year or what temperatures you'll be hunting in but there's something you may want to consider. It's not uncommon to get in some real hot temperatures over there and if you're already running some high pressure loads in the .45 you may find they're much too hot for shooting in such temperatures. With the .45-70 you can run low-pressure loads that'll far outdo your .45 and still be plenty safe in the hot temps. And you'll have the added advantage of having more power should you need it. You could carry some moderate loads for most hunting situations and a few hot ones for emergency use on nasty critters. That' just on of the beauties of the .45-70... it's very versatile.