Casting in the cold!

[Kenner]

Howdy all,
I picked up a Snakebite Greasewagon 158 gr mold a little while ago and have just started to do some casting. The molds were degreased and cleaned. The mold is throwing 163 gr bullets at .358 diameter. This suits me just fine as no need for sizing. As this is my first attempt at a Lee six cavity mold, I was not knowing what to expect. I am having a little trouble getting a good sharp edge around the base of the bullet. It is a little chilly here (about 32 F) so I moved production inside the garage with heaters. It helped a little. I am finally using a thermometer so I know that my mix is up too 800 degrees. I am using a 20 to 1 mix so that it should be casting like a dream. I thought that I would have trouble keeping the mold cool but it seems that I am having the opposite effect. Any ideas?

[RobS]

Your temp is actually a bit hot for an alloy with tin as it will oxidize out if not fluxing often to put it back into the mix. Since you are having issues with only the base band I would say you are having venting issues at the base and likely have too tight of a spure plate fit. Many of the lee six cavity molds come with tight fitting spure plates. The sprue plate hold down bolt is more to do with the issue than the sprue plate pivot bolt tightness but both can be a problem. I simply unscrew the bolts, take off the sprue plate and then tap 8/32 thread to put in set screws so I can adjust the tightness of those sprue plate bolts. I also put in prior to the set screw a small piece of brass or aluminum so the set screw doesn't mar the threads on the sprue plate bolts.

[RobS]

Here are some pics of the finished product.

Sprue plate hold down bolt set screw:

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/sprueholddownsetscrew.jpg

Sprue plate pivot bolt set screw

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/sprueplatepivotsetscrew.jpg

[Charlie Sometimes]

I found I have to run my metal hotter in the winter to get complete fill out- my shop is unheated and gets COLD too. There is more metal in the 6 bangers to heat up and keep hot, and the air temp pulls it away faster, IMO.

Since the mold cools off quicker, it is probably just enought to keep your cavities from filling completely.

I also find I get better boolits when I cast in the winter under these conditions because the molds do cool quicker, and I don't have to slow down or stop as often to avoid over heating, etc.

I also pressure cast using a ladle. You might not be getting enough weight into the cavity when you are filling them, too.

Lots of little things could be affecting you- venting is a possibility, as RobS said, but I would think the temperature is most probably the culprit.

[mooman76]

How are you casting, ladle or bottom? A good size puddle on the sprue helps with base fill out so don't be stingy there. Speed is also a big factor with the 6x moulds so go fast and you need a ladle big enough to do all six cavities in one trip.

[RobS]

Sprue plate tightness on the hold down bolt is quite obvious and easily noted. Look at or remember back when the sprue plate was new and the area where the sprue plate cut out is for the hold down bolt. Smooth surface no galling etc. when new..........right. After a person cast with the mold, and it won't matter a whole lot if you have applied sprue lube on this area, it starts to gall and take shape to the hold down bolt due to the overly tight fit. After time this galling works in and the sprue plate looses up and is why many experience better base fill out after using the mold more.

Here is my mold sprue plate after around 500-600 boolits run through it. Notice that having the tension set right there is no wear and galling on the sprue plate in the discussed areas.

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/sprueplateholddownboltcut-out.jpg

I put set screws in on any mold that doesn't already come with them as it just makes sense to me.

[Kenner]

Your temp is actually a bit hot for an alloy with tin as it will oxidize out if not fluxing often to put it back into the mix. Since you are having issues with only the base band I would say you are having venting issues at the base and likely have too tight of a spure plate fit. Many of the lee six cavity molds come with tight fitting spure plates. The sprue plate hold down bolt is more to do with the issue than the sprue plate pivot bolt tightness but both can be a problem. I simply unscrew the bolts, take off the sprue plate and then tap 8/32 thread to put in set screws so I can adjust the tightness of those sprue plate bolts. I also put in prior to the set screw a small piece of brass or aluminum so the set screw doesn't mar the threads on the sprue plate bolts.

A very good point. I let the temp creep up in my attempt to fill the base. Charlie S mentioned pressure casting. I haven't tried that before and am already getting excited. I will also check for wear on the sprue that RobS mentions. I am fully capable of making the mods that he spoke of. Thanks very much for the help guys, I appreciate it a great deal.
Happy casting!
Kenner

[Bret4207]

Could be venting or could be mould temp. The tiny air gap between the mould and sprue plate retards the heat transfer to the sprue plate. You con sort of compensate for this by leaving a large sprue puddle and picking up your casting speed. An empty mould is one that's cooling down.

FYI- I've cast in my unheated garage well below zero. You just have to get the mould HOT.

[Kenner]

How are you casting, ladle or bottom? A good size puddle on the sprue helps with base fill out so don't be stingy there. Speed is also a big factor with the 6x moulds so go fast and you need a ladle big enough to do all six cavities in one trip.

Thank you Moonman, I use a bottom pour. I can't believe how fast the lead disappears. I use a Lee 10 pounder for now but am in the market for a twenty. When I start a serious session I will have to use a pre pot heated by propane. I will use a large ladle to move the lead. Also I can throw the sprue plates back into the pre pot. I will try the pressure method with a large sprue plate. In the past I have always cast pure lead during the summer. Sure is different!

[Kenner]

Could be venting or could be mould temp. The tiny air gap between the mould and sprue plate retards the heat transfer to the sprue plate. You con sort of compensate for this by leaving a large sprue puddle and picking up your casting speed. An empty mould is one that's cooling down.

FYI- I've cast in my unheated garage well below zero. You just have to get the mould HOT.

That was my problem! By the time that I got the mold hot, I was running low on melt. The pre pot should look after that. By the wear on my sprue plate, it may be a tad too tight.

Thanks Bret

[Kenner]

How are you casting, ladle or bottom? A good size puddle on the sprue helps with base fill out so don't be stingy there. Speed is also a big factor with the 6x moulds so go fast and you need a ladle big enough to do all six cavities in one trip.

Thank you Moonman, I use a bottom pour. I can't believe how fast the lead disappears. I use a Lee 10 pounder for now but am in the market for a twenty. When I start a serious session I will have to use a pre pot heated by propane. I will use a large ladle to move the lead. Also I can throw the sprue plates back into the pre pot. I will try the pressure method with a large sprue plate. In the past I have always cast pure lead during the summer. Sure is different!

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I picked up on the thread title and thought I'd share a little about actual casting in the cold.

On Sunday it was cold here in Northern Wyoming with wind and light snow .. about +5 degrees. In other words it was ideal for casting bullets out in the unheated shed. And I still needed some Jones 44-500-PB bullets for the coming long range season.

I stepped out to the shed .. and found that my propane lighter would not light the furnace. I had to go inside and get some matches. I knew that my olive-oil flux would be frozen and it was. I used some chipped-up bees wax instead. I was VERY careful to prevent any cold alloy from passing through the hot gases of my burner on the way to the pot since combustion moisture almost instantly collects on such metal and when placed in the hot alloy steam explosions can happen.

It was an excellent session – the bullets came out like gems with every cycle of the tool. I weigh each bullet when I’m working on the big-bore “Match” grade casting so I use an electronic scale right there at the casting bench. The scale is important to the whole deal because it will show weight differences and thus deviation from the mean more quickly than anything else I ever tried in the line of precision bullet casting. But electronic scales will not work at anything much below freezing. I had to warm it up next to the fire to get it working and I had to keep warming it up now and then so that it would continue to operate.

On another subject it is interesting to pass along one of the wrinkles of bullet quench heat-treating from the mold. In the cold it is easy to get some regular anti-freeze mix, put it near your casting outfit and drop your hot bullets into a liquid that is a good way below freezing ~ thus making the bullets noticeably harder than, say, just dropping them into cold water.

Good evening,
Forrest

[EDK]

In addition to adjusting the sprue plate, there are some other "quick fixes" on problem moulds. Lots of information, but sometimes you have to do some looking. It is a d*** poor day that I don't learn something new here.

One thing to do is to run a file along the split cavities at the top edge...you don't need to take off much...you can always do more a second time. It's a trial-and-error thing.

On a lot of moulds, I have taken a three-corner file and cut a VERY LIGHT groove across the sprue plate underneath each hole. Again, it doesn't take much.

Venting is sometimes a PITA to get right, BUT seems to be the cause of a lot of casting problems. If it isn't right, you get rounded bases.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[Walter Laich]

Can you hit the spur plate with a torch and then cast? This would warm up the plate and might tell you if the problem is related to the temperature

just my 2₵

[mooman76]

That plate can be a bugger to get heated when first starting up. More so than the block.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I always start with only one cavity on a Lee six banger. Once I start getting good boolits from that first cavity I go for two and finally the whole deal when the mold gets up to temperature. This prevents the dreaded broken sprue plate handle thing that will sometimes occur when loading 6 cavities into a cold Lee 6 Cavity mold.

Liberal use of Bullshops Sprue Plate Lube is important after the mold gets up to operating temperature. When on a marathon casting session with either 38's, 9 MM's or .45's I usually end up using two Lee six bangers. This allows a really hot mold to cool down some more and I get excellent results when casting indoors. I use another Lee 4-20 mounted on a shelf above and use a piece of steel channel to move the molton alloy to the lower situated casting pot. With about 36 lbs of molton alloy available I hardly ever run out of alloy. I even sometimes have a helper alongside to gather the sprues and feed sprues and pre heated ingots into the top pot to keep things moving along.

I use a 5 gallon plastic bucket with cold water and packing peanuts of styrofoam to cool down the new boolits. During one session I ended up with three 5 gallon buckets each holding half boolits and half water. I have no idea of how many boolits I cast that day but I ended up with quite a pile of boolits. During that casting session I had a helper and I went through over 260 lbs of ingots and ended up with two empty pots and a sore back.

I did not even empty the buckets for three days and when I did so I had to sort out the various calibres of boolits from each pile. At one time I was using 3 Lee six banger molds at a time as using two of them did not let them cool down enuf between castings and I had to wait too long for the sprue puddle to harden. Using the Sprue Plate lube you can actually open the sprue plate with a gloved hand and I have had boolits dumped from the mold slump and lose their proper shape and end up hitting the water and hardening into something that almost resembles a boolit but really is not acceptable. I get splits in base and a visible crack a mite above the base of the boolits if I go too fast.

Once you get a good system going and get cranking you really can produce a huge pile of good boolits pretty fast using the Lee six bangers. Recently I obtained a Saeco 3 cavity mold for my .41 Magnum. Right from the get go this was the best mold I have ever used. From the first cast to the last this mold was fantastic. Fast and the boolits just about jumped out of the cavities when I opened the handles. However I needed to use Bruce B's speedcasting technique utilizing a sponge, rag, plate and cold water to keep the temps reasonable and to prevent slumping boolits that can happen when going too fast. Almost no rejections of any of the boolits produced and they shoot just great in this 40 year old Smith Model 57. Loaded over 7.5 gr of Unique they are a pleasure to shoot and they group really well. Loaded with 11.5 gr of Unique they produce enuf recoil to let you know that this is big medicine but nothing like shooting a .44 Magnum. I did not have the chony this day so I do not know the velocity but the 11.5 grn loading was supposed to produce something in the area of 1400 FPS according to the recipie I found published.

[XWrench3]

here are some things i have found with my lee 6 bangers. first, about 750 degrees seems to be about right. the next thing is you have to get the mold so hot, it is dropping very frosted boolits, then let it cool a bit, and have at it. if it is a brand new mold, for some reason, it seems like the only thing that will make them fill out properly is casting with them. it almost seems like as you cast, it somehow "cures or heat treats" (for lack of a better explanation) the aluminum. the more boolits go through it, the better they cast. DO NOT try the kroil in the mold "trick"! while this may work for iron molds, i had to clean, scrub, degrease, etc. my molds for a long time to get all of the film out of them. JUST DONT DO IT! the smoke thing that lee reccomends does work, use a match or butane lighter, NOT A CANDLE! one thing i have not yet tried, is boiling the mold. that may work. it actually makes sense. one thing is be very carefull about lubing the pivot points on the mold. if the lube migrates into the cavity, it will mees up every bullet until the lube burns off, or you clean it out. i wish you all the luck in the world! once you get it up and running it will work fine, so just have a little patience. you will soon be making huge piles of boolits!

[Tom Herman]

All good advice!
I cast in an unheated shop with plenty of ventilation.
With the cold weather, I have to run the alloy hotter, but that's fine.
I preheat the moulds (Lyman and Ideal four bangers) on the electric stove in the house (medium), and the bring them outside when I've fluxed and I'm ready to cast.
With the preheated moulds, I'm casting keepers after only one or two cycles.
If I need extra heat to bring a colder mould slightly up to temperature, I carefully use a gas torch.
Sometimes I cast down into the 20's, but mostly the coldest i cast is in the 30's, with 40's sometimes in the winter.
Even with three four cavity moulds, I still have to pace myself and let them cool sometimes.
I water drop, and put the finished boolits onto a dedicated cookie tray, and heat them in the oven at about 225 for a half hour or 45 minutes to dry them out.
Then I QC and sort according to caliber.
Best of luck with your cold weather casting!

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[RobS]

and heat them in the oven at about 225 for a half hour or 45 minutes to dry them out

Tom:

If you didn't know already this also speeds up the aging process considerably. One exposure at 200 degrees for an hour and left in the oven to cool will speed up aging to 48 hours where as it would take a week or two without it. Two exposures in the oven spread over 7 or 8 hours and a person can have boolits aged in 24 hours or less. Air cooled boolits have more of an importance on this aging bit because in the reloading process many people will load an air cooled boolit too soon, before aged (too soft), and their brass case will swag down their boolits.

If the temps start to creep up much past 200 degrees there is the possibility of annealing (softening the boolits) which is something people can also do to control BHN hardness of alloys. An example is people like to water drop and let's say the end result is a boolit that is 20+ BHN for a particular alloy. A person can anneal these down to 15 BHN at such and such temp in the oven. Antimony alloys have a lot of potential for a wide range of application as the BHN range can be quite wide i.e. air cooled wheel weight boolits at 12-13 BHN or the same alloy oven heat treated to 30 BHN.

[Kenner]

I found I have to run my metal hotter in the winter to get complete fill out- my shop is unheated and gets COLD too. There is more metal in the 6 bangers to heat up and keep hot, and the air temp pulls it away faster, IMO.

Since the mold cools off quicker, it is probably just enought to keep your cavities from filling completely.

I also find I get better boolits when I cast in the winter under these conditions because the molds do cool quicker, and I don't have to slow down or stop as often to avoid over heating, etc.

I also pressure cast using a ladle. You might not be getting enough weight into the cavity when you are filling them, too.

Lots of little things could be affecting you- venting is a possibility, as RobS said, but I would think the temperature is most probably the culprit.

I did the modifications that RobS mentioned and tried the pressure method and I now get beautiful boolits! I hold the mold up to the spigot and fill for three seconds, the drop the mold an inch and then shut the valve a half a second later so that I have a good sprue. One fill into a warm mold and I am into good boolits. I do find that the mold doesn't drop with just a shake. I have to rap the handles with a plastic mallet pretty hard to get it to drop.

[RobS]

Leementing is an alternative:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=654