1884 Trapdoor not shooting cast well

[smkummer]

The Lee cast 340 grain bullet hard cast and soft at about .459 diameter unsized. It is shooting about a 1 foot group at 50 yards, with 1 in 4 tumbling. 12 to 14.6 unique was used. The barrel doesn't have pitting but the rifleing appears light. Has anyone here had one of these and when going to a jacketed bullet it shot fine? The factory black hills 405 cowboy load shot worse.

[AkMike]

Have you slugged the barrel to see what it needs for diameter?

[rockrat]

I have heard trapdoors can run up to .463 and maybe up to .465", so your boolit may be grossly undersized. As AkMike said, your barrel will tell you.

[smkummer]

Gee that would be an easy fix. Or where the heck would one find bullets that big as cast?

[Don McDowell]

That rifle was designed for the 500 gr bullet.
Pretty good chance you've got the throat full of lead. Might want to go in and do some lead mining, and then try some 500 gr bullets, and some powder better suited to the 45-70 case.

[rockrat]

We had a group buy mould that cast a plain base 420gr. Mine casts about .460", but after aging about a week, ends up @.461". Shoots about 1.5"-2"@ 100yds, about as good as my eyes can do.

I do load them using a card wad over the powder and "grits" as a filler. compress it about 3/16" when seating boolit. Only would shoot about 4" before I tried the card/filler.

[missionary5155]

Good morning smkummer
Check the throat diameter. My 1884 has a .462+ throat. If you want to load smokeless you will need to fill that throat. I shoot 275 grainers in mine and would not hessitate to pop wabbits.. but it is a bit overbore. But the throat diameter is the key.

[smkummer]

I cleaned the barrel very well with solvent and brass brush so the patches were coming out almost white. Does anyone here shoot the Lee Hollow base 405 grain? I am wondering if this was soft cast (air dropped wheel weights or mixed with pure lead) if it may help the situation. thanks

[AkMike]

Have you measured the bore or throat or the bullet that you're using yet?

[405]

smkummer,
There are two other threads running currently on the forum. Prolly be a good idea to read thru both. One is running in this, the "Single Shot" section, and the other in the "BP Paper Patching".

Bore slugging? What's that? :shock:

[smkummer]

It is actually my buddies gun that I am helping him reload for it. We will slug the bore but have not yet. thanks

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Cast Bullet Engineering in Australia make a brass mould 500.462 which cast .462 boolits. I use these in my trapdoor with a full charge of 70gn FFG which is very accurate out to 600yds.

[oldhickory]

I cleaned the barrel very well with solvent and brass brush so the patches were coming out almost white. Does anyone here shoot the Lee Hollow base 405 grain? I am wondering if this was soft cast (air dropped wheel weights or mixed with pure lead) if it may help the situation. thanks

Yes, I shoot the LEE 405 HB, and it's a dandy boolit! Mine drops at .461 with soft lead, (not pure-just softer than w-w's) lubed with beeswax and Crisco. I generaly use a "kicker" charge of smokeless, (5gr. unique, or 7gr. SR4759) then 55-60gr. Holy Black with some compression under a wax wad and roll crimp. The 2 most accurate boolits I use for 100-200yd shooting is the LEE 405gr. hollow base, or an old Lyman 457124, both cast big boolits over .460. For longer range play, I use a Rapine 460500, a close copy of the 1884 boolit.

Trapdoors ain't fussy rifles at all and even with a worn muzzle from sloppy cleaning usually shoot very well. I've shot some smokeless loads, but find them sorely lacking in the "BOOM!" (fun) catagory. My 1884 Springfield usually shoots about 1 1/2-2" at 100yd. from the bench.

I've loaded 10gr. of Unique with all the boolits listed above and found them accurate at 50yds as a "plinker", or small game load, but they do start to tumble at long range.

[smkummer]

We have our work cut out for us now. On a side note, I was at the Louisville gun show yesterday and picked up a H&R officers model trapdoor. Time to start a different post as to where to start for a good accurate load.

[D.E.Kluge]

I have an original 1884 in very good to excellent condition (complete with bayonet and scabbard) that I’ve be shooting for years (lots of target work and several deer). I had the similar issues you mentioned (shot jacketed boolits fairly well, but I couldn’t get it to shoot cast ones worth a hoot). Then I found a reference you may be interested in reading: “Loading Cartridges For The Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle And Carbine” by: J.S. and Pat Wolf. (Published by: Wolf’s Western Traders, P.O. Box 85, 111 Main, Hill City, SD 57745)
It provides excellent insight into the technology, mechanics and thinking behind the design and use of the “old warrior,” as he puts it. From boolit design, to alloys, to loading procedures, to sight use, I think you’ll find it an enlightening read; it certainly made a difference in the performance I got out of my Trapdoor. Enjoy!

[oldracer]

Both my single shots do not seem to shoot smokeless powder or 300gn cast bullets well. The 100 yd targets look like a shotgun has been using them! I think this is a matter of working with the load/bullet seat depth/crimp or no crimp/lube/etc etc etc and so far I have about decided I like the way they shoot FFG and 500gn cast at 20 to 1 ratio as I am getting great groups at both 100 and 200 yds. It has only taken me about 8 months to get there though!

I did slug both the barrels, one is a Badger and measures .458 and the Armi Sport also measures .458 which made me very happen they are the same. I also found bullet seating depth to be almost exactly the same on both guns which is a plus.

[Larry Gibson]

We have our work cut out for us now. On a side note, I was at the Louisville gun show yesterday and picked up a H&R officers model trapdoor. Time to start a different post as to where to start for a good accurate load.

As mentioned you probably want to get Spence Wolf's book on replicating loads for the TD. However, i shoot lots of BP and smokeless loads through my target TD (based on a M1884 action and barrel). I use several bullets (Rapine 460210, 460250, 460500 and lee's 405HB. All are sized and lubed in a .4615 sizer. I've not got anywhere near as good nor as consistent accuracy with "bumping up" bullets of .459 size.

I also shoot my H&R Officers Model and a H&R LBH Carbine. They have modern .458 groove depth bores and do very well with all the above bullets and the RCBS 45-300-FN-GC, 457124 and 457483.

If you any specific questions I'll be glad to help with loading info. You might also find the 1879 manual usefull/fun.

Larry Gibson

[Piedmont]

My trapdoor has a .464" groove diameter. Your load would suck in my rifle but my rifle shoots well with proper loads.

[DragoonDrake]

I will admit I have a three groove trapdoor and don't know how to measure that. On the other hand mine shoot the 340-450 horribly. I did not start getting a grouping until 500 grain bullets. I lee spire works well for me, the rcbs bpcs mold also shoots well unfortunately I don't have that mold. The real shooter for me is the Lyman postel bullet. I size to 459-460 depending on alloy.

[DragoonDrake]

Oh I forgot o say that trailboss is a good powder to try to keep the velocity down and still fill the case.

[Larry Gibson]

DragoonDrake

You've discovered what Sprinfield Armory did only you're 130+ years behind them. SA found the 400 gr bullets at .459 size did not have the inertia to obturate effectively into the larger groove M1873 barrels. That's why they came up with the 500 gr bullet circa 1881/82. It has the inertia to obturate and gives better accuracy. It was thought back then that "bumping up" was the method to use with BP cartridge loads as they transitioned from minie style bullets in muzzle loaders. However, as we now know,"bumping up" is not the best solution. It is far better to have the bullet slightly over groove diameter than undersize, even with BP loads.

To measure the groove diameter of your TD slug the barrel as usual. Cut a strip of beer/soda can 1/2" wide and 4" long. Measure the thickness of the strip. Wrap the strip around the slug just tight enough so it is a snug fit around the circumference of the slup and pinch the two ends together with the fingers of one hand. Mic the diameter of the slug/strip combination. Subtract twice the thickness of the strip from that diameter and you have a close measurement of the groove depth of your TD barrel.

Piedmont

With 1-16 alloy my Lee 405HB drops the bullets at .464/.465. I've hand lubed lots of them for use in original TDs such as yours. They shoot extremely well in such. My Lee mould is an older one that was one of the run made for Spence Wolf. Perhaps it casts bullets of larger diameter than the ones made these days(?), I don't know. I suggest trying that bullet if you don't use it already.

Larry Gibson

[DragoonDrake]

Thank you Larry.