44 Mag Leading Badly

[gjemba]

I got a new TC Encore with a 12" 44 mag barrel and put about 20 rounds thru it of Lee TL LSWC . They were lubed with LLA and were about 20 BHN acording to my Lee tester. The boolits were going all over the place but a few would group well. What a disappointment. I got it in the house and cheked the barrel and discovered it was severly leaded. I checked te boolit diameter and found some to be consistant .432 or so and some varied from .424 to .420 along the length of the boolit. In other words, they are tapered with the wider end being the base and the narrower end being the TL rings near the head. This is a 6 banger mold and it drops boolits perfectly. Too bad they are the wrong sice.

I am planning to pour at least 6 each from each cavity to find the culprits and make sure I am looking at this correctly. Have any of you had a similar experience? If I am correct, I guess I need to have Lee replace this mold since I doubt I can repair it with polishing compound. Also, I think I will try the 45/45/10 formulation. Has this formula eliminated leading for those that use it?

Maybe this should have gone in the mold sub-forum.

Comments and advice appreciated.

Gary

[MtGun44]

TL is a marginal lube system. No mention of what velocity level or load you were using.
Also, your boolit is very hard, often not helpful in this situation.

I suggest a LBT style or Keith style boolit with a conventional lube at more like 10-12 BHN, and
.001 to .002 over your groove diameter. These will typically work with accy and no leading
up to full magnum velocity.

You need to slug the bore. I would be surprised if the TL design is capable of full velocity
in the .44 mag.

Bill

[AZ-Stew]

Are you using the Lee Factory Crimp Die? If so, I'd suggest that you NOT use it for the next batch, relying on the crimp shoulder in the seating die. They actually work. I've been using them for over 35 years. The Factory Crimp Die can reduce the size of the boolit as it does whatever it does. I don't own any of them, but others here swear by them. Just be aware of what they do.

Be sure your boolits are completely filled out. A wrinkle in the band closest to the boolit base will allow hot gasses to pass the band like a cutting torch and leave lead in the barrel.

I'm also with Bill. Get yourself a Keith-style mould (Lyman 429421 or equivalent) and some good Alox/Beeswax lube. As he says, this is all you need for all velocities your gun is capable of. This is not to say that the Lee TL designs are bad. I've used the .45 cal RN TL boolit in the .45 Colt cartridge with success, but I lubed them with 50/50 Alox/beeswax, filling all the grooves, and the driving bands were all completely filled in the casting. These boolits were loaded to about 900 fps and fired from both a Ruger Blackhawk and a Winchester M-94. No leading.

Regards,

Stew

[gjemba]

Thanks guys. I will lower the BHN and the load was probably to hot at 11 gr Unique. The Alliant powder book shows that to be 1259 fps. I did not check the BHN until after I had the problem.

The boolits appear to be filled out nicely but I will pour some more and compare them. I may need to pull all that I have loaded. I am not using the factory crimp die, just the standard roll crimp. Thanks for the quick responses.

Gary

[MtGun44]

11 gr Unique is not too hot, but it is warm. Most people that are successfully using the
TL technology are using it on moderate velocity loads - note the success above at 900 fps,
but with a superior lube. Lower BHN and lower velocity, plus a better lube may make it work.

If you want full vel try a Lyman 429421, H&G503 or similar 250 Keith with NRA 50-50 lube
at .001 to .002 over groove diameter at about 10-14 BHN, not critical. LBT designs with
similar specs will also work well.

Bill

[gjemba]

I have only used TL mold for my .45 and not had problems, but the velocity has been low and so has the BHN. Zero leading. I don't have a lube sizer so I guess I need to get that now if I go to the Keith style. Also, I assumed harder was better with the 44. Assumed wrong!. Easy enough to fix though. I'm glad I only put 20 rounds through it though.

Thanks. I will shop for another mold for higher velocities and will refine my alloy.

Gary

[RobS]

You can pan lube if at the moment you don't have the $$$ for a lubricator.

[HeavyMetal]

Pan lube is the way to go until you get a good lube sizer.

This also give you the ability to try several differnt lubes, in small batchs, to see what your gun may like.

A 429421 HP sized 430 works very well in my 29 and contender latest lube, used for last several years, is Carnuba Red.

Using that in my 45-70 barrel with Lyman's 457122 HP a plain base Mold. Because of boolit diameter I am once again pan lubing so I can use these as cast at .460 diameter.

No leading in the 40 or 50 I've fired so far velocity must be in the 1400's!

[nicholst55]

Agree with everything said. Back in my younger days, I pan lubed thousands of boolits - not all at once, but over time. It works just fine, but can be messy if you're not careful. I bought a cake pan at Wal Mart and set the boolits in it; pour my melted lube in to the desired depth, and let it start to set up. Place the entire pan in the freezer for 15-20 minutes, then remove.

Now you should be able to lift the entire mess out of the pan. Press on the base of the boolits and they will pop free, but the lube grooves stay filled with lube! Saves on time and mess. Then you can use a Lee push-through sizing die to size, if needed. Next time you need to lube boolits, just fill up the holes in your lube cake and melt the whole mess, then repeat.

Be certain to use a cake pan, as the edges are angled; this helps the lube 'cake' pop free. Pie plates have straight sides, and the lube cake won't pop out easily.

[troy_mclure]

i was able to find a lyman 45 on here for $30 shipped. sizing dies and top punches run around $25 a set per boolit.

[243winxb]

some varied from .424 to .420 along the length of the boolit. More Heat, get that mould RED hot.

[BABore]

Slug the bbl as most have recommended. Measure the fired case ID as well to see if you have a fat chamber. You can use a boolit diameter that will just slip into a fired case, even if it is 0.005" or more over groove diameter. Since it is a T/C product you will also need to see if they freebored it. Seat a long flat based bullet backwards and adjust seating depth til it will just close in the action. T/C has been known to freebore bbls as much as 1/2". Not something cast is fond of. Also, another common T/C problem is chamber to bbl concentricity. You can usually eyeball it if it's off enough, otherwise a chamber cast will be needed. With all that info you should be able to select a good boolit design.

[44man]

Slug the bbl as most have recommended. Measure the fired case ID as well to see if you have a fat chamber. You can use a boolit diameter that will just slip into a fired case, even if it is 0.005" or more over groove diameter. Since it is a T/C product you will also need to see if they freebored it. Seat a long flat based bullet backwards and adjust seating depth til it will just close in the action. T/C has been known to freebore bbls as much as 1/2". Not something cast is fond of. Also, another common T/C problem is chamber to bbl concentricity. You can usually eyeball it if it's off enough, otherwise a chamber cast will be needed. With all that info you should be able to select a good boolit design.
This is very true but I need to add more since I owned a few TC's over the years. I was able to get accuracy---drop dead accuracy, but always had leading and if I shot jacketed, BAD copper fouling. Not with all barrels mind you, but you will seldom see all TC barrels the same.
Some bores were super rough and back then, TC would replace them with no question. The replacements were sometimes worse then the original.
These were shot from one of my TC's at 100 yards with cast. But it fouled something terrible. The darn guns can shoot if only they used more care making them. Seems as if they bounce all over the place.

[44man]

HEE, HEE, some of you think I am just a revolver nut! :cbpour:
How about groups at 100 and 200 meters with a single shot. Yes, I could see back then.
The TC can do this if you can put up with all the trouble. I gave up on them.

[Ole]

I guess I got lucky because my .357 Max TC shoots the 190 ranch dogs very well with zero leading issues.

[Doby45]

Maybe you could firelap it if the barrel is rough. Smooooooove that joker out..

[44man]

Maybe you could firelap it if the barrel is rough. Smooooooove that joker out..
I don't know the answer. My friend has a TC in 7 TCU and it is crazy. We have hit 2" targets at 200 yards. This one does not foul at all. But the next might be a P.O.C.
They are like Freedom guns. A wonder or junk! :holysheep

[Maven]

"Thanks guys. I will lower the BHN and the load was probably to hot at 11 gr Unique. The Alliant powder book shows that to be 1259 fps. I did not check the BHN until after I had the problem."

Gary, I had the 2 cav. version of that mould, which cast well enough, but the CB's were a bit undersized. In spite of that, I got decent accuracy from that CB and 8.0gr. Unique from my Ruger SBH and minimal leading. Btw, from my 10.5" bbl., 8gr. Unique + the TL SWC -> 1,000fps, and that's with a cylinder gap. Accuracy decreased and leading increased if I exceeded that velocity/pressure level. In addition, I rarely hardened those CB's and either tumble lubed them with Lee Liq. Alox, smeared it on with my fingers or used a larger sizing die + Felix Lube in my lube-sizer to prepare them. Drop back to 8gr. Unique + a good coat of liq. alox and use something like wheelweights + 1% tin before you return the mold to Lee.

[Char-Gar]

Ah yes! Lee tumble lube molds and Lee snot for lube again. Why am I not surprised things are not working out so well for you.

[Doby45]

I was gonna say that very thing Chargar, but I digress. :)

[evan price]

I'm shooting the Lee tumble lube 240 SWC as cast with 2 coats of LLA over 8 grains of Alliant Promo which should be around 1100 fps and no leading in a Ruger Super Redhawk. Alloy is water-quenched range scrap BHN 12-14 according to the Faber-Castell hardness scale.

[Doby45]

It not an issue of it being impossible to use mule snot and TL boolits. It is just a MUCH smaller window of success.

[Char-Gar]

Richard Lee did not find a BETTER way to shoot cast bullets. He found a FASTER (prep time) way to shoot cast bullets. Quite often a shooter has to choose between "better" and "faster" and then live with the consequences of the choice. Or, made a new choice.

"Faster", seem to be the mantra of the times we live in now.

[MtGun44]

I think Doby45 put it exactly correctly. Not that you can't do it, but the conditions where
it will work are narrower.

Seems like we have about 5 times the number of "I got terrible inaccuracy and lots of
leading" posts with TL as we do with conventional, well tested designs and lubes.

I try to be as fair as I can, while not being a fan of the TL concept, and say, it can work. BUT
it appears to be fairly unforgiving and tends to work best at moderate velocities.

I honestly understand the desire for lower first cost, but I did pan lubing and a Lee
knock thru sizer for years before I saved up and bought my first lubrisizer. Conventional
designs can be done on the cheap, too - and it appears with a higher probability of
success.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Perhaps the TL concept will work in some cases. I really don't know. I made two forays into the concept and both times the results were not good. I saw no need to continue trying to make something work that didn't , when I already had something that did.

Cheaper is good, just like faster is good, but not when you have to sacrifice performance.

It really doesn't make much difference to me, but I don't like to see newbies get off on the wrong foot. They come to this and other boards and and inundated with TL fans and come away with the impression that it is the only way to do things. It may work just fine in some circumstances, but won't in many more.

[fecmech]

I think of it as a tool just like gas chks, there is a time and a place for them. Recluse's work refining the TL process with his 45-45-10 mix makes it more user friendly and it doesn't stink as bad as the alox conventional or TL, seems to smoke less too. I have 2 star lubrisizers so I'm certainly not afraid to lube conventionally but they're getting less work since DavidR gave me the 6 cav TL mold. Just another tool in the tool box.

[AZ-Stew]

I try to be as fair as I can, while not being a fan of the TL concept, and say, it can work. BUT it appears to be fairly unforgiving and tends to work best at moderate velocities.
Bill

Bill, you created a dangerous situation. You gave me a thought.

Consider the Lee "system" as just that. The tumble lube design may be intended to work ONLY at moderate velocities, as one would obtain by using other parts of the Lee "system", i.e., the original, but still available, Lee Loader. In these kits is a powder scoop that is not intended to drop powder charges that will generate velocities anywhere NEAR the potential of the cartridge. If using a Lee Loader, the tumble lube design would be a perfect fit. Cheap, easy, usable anywhere and allows someone to get started in handloading at minimal cost. TLs may very well be a part of the "system", and not intended for general use, or use in "hot" loads, as are more conventional designs.

Regards,

Stew

[Sully]

Perhaps the TL concept will work in some cases. I really don't know. I made two forays into the concept and both times the results were not good. I saw no need to continue trying to make something work that didn't , when I already had something that did.

Cheaper is good, just like faster is good, but not when you have to sacrifice performance.

It really doesn't make much difference to me, but I don't like to see newbies get off on the wrong foot. They come to this and other boards and and inundated with TL fans and come away with the impression that it is the only way to do things. It may work just fine in some circumstances, but won't in many more.

Many ( far too many) years ago I took a drafting course in school. Got it done super quick....but I missed one dimension. Instructor gave me a D....wrote on the dwg "Never sacrifice accuracy for speed".....

[gjemba]

I have received a lot of advice. All of it was well written and has a lot of experience behind it. All of it was valuable. I know that it has to start with the correctly case boolit and will follow with the correct lube and load commbination. I am going to pull the boolits and recast with more care put into the alloy. I have not cast in 30+ years so i need to relearn and I did not know much the first time.

Thanks guys.

Gary

[Recluse]

My first foray into tumble-lubing was with 148 gr WC boolits with traditional lube grooves. I used straight LLA and, like everyone new to tumble-lubing, I used too much of it.

I think I'm still waiting on some of those boolits to dry.

Got a lot of smoke, but no leading. But again, we're talking about WCs with 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Earwax would probably do just as well for a slow moving boolit like that. :)

Straight LLA gave me headaches all the way around. Gummed up my seating dies, was messy as hell, boolits picked up all sorts of small debris, made a mess out of the chambers and bore.

I tried thinning it half and half with mineral spirits, and all that did was give me a worse (physical) headache. It eliminated some of the tackiness and seating die problems, but in return, I got an even bigger problem.

Leading.

Couple of friends were playing around with Johnson Paste Wax by itself, and I started playing around with mixing it with LLA, then thinning it with mineral spirits a bit. Long story as to how all of that came about and why, but I finally settled on the 45/45/10 blend.

In .357 Magnum, I can achieve full magnum velocities with a Lee TL158SWC cast with basic Lyman #2 alloy (wheelweights) with a touch of extra tin thrown in for optimum fillout of the microbands. I water quench these boolits straight from the mold. As soon as they are dry, I tumble-lube them, size them, then tumble-lube them again, then put them away to be loaded later.

I've used this same process on .358 Keith-style boolits and other boolits with traditional lube grooves, and had basically the same results: Very good accuracy, little to no smoke, no leading, clean bore.

Proper boolit fit is critical.

Moving to .44 Magnum presented bigger challenges. I own no TL boolit molds in .429, and in all honesty, am not a big fan of the vast majority of TL boolit designs--the TL158SWC being a notable exception, along with the (.452) TL230RN. Others I have tried left me less than impressed.

In the .44, I lubed/sized/lubed some 214SWC boolits, but noticed I was started to get a little light, very light leading towards the end of the barrel--indicative of running out of lube. I added a third cycle of (tumble) lubing and this eliminated any trace of leading. Slower powders also seemed to help.

On a lurk, I took the 45/45/10 lube, heated it up and added beeswax (from Randyrat) to it for hardness, and made it into a stick lube. I then ran new boolits through the lubesizer, loaded and test-fired.

The result was no leading with any of the powders all the way from low-end magnum loads to max pressure loads. Accuracy was excellent.

The alloy was basic wheelweight, again with just a bit of extra tin added, and boolits were water-quenched straight from the mold. Sized and lubed in the lubesizer same day, then put away for several weeks before loading.

Again, I sized in order to compliment my bore, which in this case sizing to .429 gave me optimum performance.

Just my experiences with two of the magnum loads, lead boolits and tumble-lubing versus traditional lubing.

:coffee:

[44man]

Ya know, I never had the TC barrel in .44 so it is hard to answer. But most Alox lubes would lead my revolvers but Felix or CR will not even with TL boolits.
But the next thing is, does a heavy charge of Unique ruin and slump the boolits? They can skid easy in a pistol too.
Why not slow the powder burn and peak pressure position by going to a slower powder? Seems to me shooting over 1200 fps calls for 2400 or 296.
You should be able to shoot a softer alloy in the pistol but there is no harm in trying WD, WW's either.
If the mold makes funny boolits, send it back, you need a good fit from every cavity.
There are some things to play with, powders, lubes and alloys and going softer is not always the answer and can make things worse.

[44man]

My first foray into tumble-lubing was with 148 gr WC boolits with traditional lube grooves. I used straight LLA and, like everyone new to tumble-lubing, I used too much of it.

I think I'm still waiting on some of those boolits to dry.

Got a lot of smoke, but no leading. But again, we're talking about WCs with 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Earwax would probably do just as well for a slow moving boolit like that. :)

Straight LLA gave me headaches all the way around. Gummed up my seating dies, was messy as hell, boolits picked up all sorts of small debris, made a mess out of the chambers and bore.

I tried thinning it half and half with mineral spirits, and all that did was give me a worse (physical) headache. It eliminated some of the tackiness and seating die problems, but in return, I got an even bigger problem.

Leading.

Couple of friends were playing around with Johnson Paste Wax by itself, and I started playing around with mixing it with LLA, then thinning it with mineral spirits a bit. Long story as to how all of that came about and why, but I finally settled on the 45/45/10 blend.

In .357 Magnum, I can achieve full magnum velocities with a Lee TL158SWC cast with basic Lyman #2 alloy (wheelweights) with a touch of extra tin thrown in for optimum fillout of the microbands. I water quench these boolits straight from the mold. As soon as they are dry, I tumble-lube them, size them, then tumble-lube them again, then put them away to be loaded later.

I've used this same process on .358 Keith-style boolits and other boolits with traditional lube grooves, and had basically the same results: Very good accuracy, little to no smoke, no leading, clean bore.

Proper boolit fit is critical.

Moving to .44 Magnum presented bigger challenges. I own no TL boolit molds in .429, and in all honesty, am not a big fan of the vast majority of TL boolit designs--the TL158SWC being a notable exception, along with the (.452) TL230RN. Others I have tried left me less than impressed.

In the .44, I lubed/sized/lubed some 214SWC boolits, but noticed I was started to get a little light, very light leading towards the end of the barrel--indicative of running out of lube. I added a third cycle of (tumble) lubing and this eliminated any trace of leading. Slower powders also seemed to help.

On a lurk, I took the 45/45/10 lube, heated it up and added beeswax (from Randyrat) to it for hardness, and made it into a stick lube. I then ran new boolits through the lubesizer, loaded and test-fired.

The result was no leading with any of the powders all the way from low-end magnum loads to max pressure loads. Accuracy was excellent.

The alloy was basic wheelweight, again with just a bit of extra tin added, and boolits were water-quenched straight from the mold. Sized and lubed in the lubesizer same day, then put away for several weeks before loading.

Again, I sized in order to compliment my bore, which in this case sizing to .429 gave me optimum performance.

Just my experiences with two of the magnum loads, lead boolits and tumble-lubing versus traditional lubing.

:coffee:
I hate TL Alox and would rather smear Felix in the grooves with my fingers and then run through a Lee die to just remove excess lube. As long as the TL boolit will fit, they shoot as good as any other boolit. The RD 265 gr for the .44 is great and will hold 3/4" all day at 50 yards and 1-1/4" at 100. RD did right by making the boolits fit better and you can size them if needed.
I have the worst accuracy from a Keith with one large lube groove. Even a WLN with one large groove does not shoot that good. Two is better and three works as good or better so I have no beef with Lee's TL boolits, but fit is needed just like any boolit.
I will always feel you should take LLA and pour it into your car doors or spray under fenders. To fool with it over and over by mixing stuff with it is just too much work.
Buy lube from Lar or make Felix and be done with it.

[Recluse]

To fool with it over and over by mixing stuff with it is just too much work.

*Shrug*

Takes me maybe fifteen/twenty minutes to make a batch of 45/45/10. Cost is less than $10. Finished product lasts me for thousands and thousands of boolits, and for the boolits and applications I use it with, I get spot-on accuracy, no leading, shiny bore and no smoke at the range.

For fifteen/twenty minutes of stirring and pouring, it seems to be a profitable payoff for me. :)

:coffee:

[44man]

*Shrug*

Takes me maybe fifteen/twenty minutes to make a batch of 45/45/10. Cost is less than $10. Finished product lasts me for thousands and thousands of boolits, and for the boolits and applications I use it with, I get spot-on accuracy, no leading, shiny bore and no smoke at the range.

For fifteen/twenty minutes of stirring and pouring, it seems to be a profitable payoff for me. :)

:coffee:
I can't argue with that as long as it works! [smilie=s:

[357shooter]

Recluse: quick question. Any experience with 357 TL bullets & lube in a lever rifle? 20 inch to be specific.

[fecmech]

Recluse: quick question. Any experience with 357 TL bullets & lube in a lever rifle? 20 inch to be specific.

Lee 158 TL SWC+ 4.5 grs of BE or 5.3/231 will give you 1100 fps and nice groups( 3-4 moa) out to 200 yds if your Rossi shoots as good as my 2 do! My Winchester 94 does a little better.

[357shooter]

Lee 158 TL SWC+ 4.5 grs of BE or 5.3/231 will give you 1100 fps and nice groups( 3-4 moa) out to 200 yds if your Rossi shoots as good as my 2 do! My Winchester 94 does a little better.
Thanks. The 158 TL is incredibly accurate in a revolver. Need to try it in the Rossi.

[Recluse]

I can't argue with that as long as it works! [smilie=s:

Speaking of lube grooves, though, I have a couple of other boolits that only have one lube groove that do pretty well for me--with one that does extremely well (another boolit, .452 200SWC from Lee, of all places).

But typically, like you, I prefer two lube grooves as to one. Couldn't tell you exactly or scientifically why; maybe I'm just superstitious? :)

Now, if you want to talk about too much work and making a huge mess and endless frustration, for me, that would be pan-lubing, or PAIN-LUBING as I often refer to it. But danged if it doesn't work and work really well for most people.

Sometimes I wonder if, unbeknownst to me, a black cat walked in front of me the first time I was headed out to the shop to try my hand at pan-lubing. I don't remember breaking any mirrors or walking under any ladders.

It may have been, however, on a Friday the 13th, which if that is the case, would explain it all. :)

:coffee:

[quasi]

Ranch Dog uses his Micro-Groove boolits and Lee liquid Alox at velocity's up to 2400 fps.

[Bret4207]

I have received a lot of advice. All of it was well written and has a lot of experience behind it. All of it was valuable. I know that it has to start with the correctly case boolit and will follow with the correct lube and load commbination. I am going to pull the boolits and recast with more care put into the alloy. I have not cast in 30+ years so i need to relearn and I did not know much the first time.

Thanks guys.

Gary

Gary, that's the wrong way to go about this. Bhn means pretty much nothing at this point. Start with fit, barrel condition, as close to perfect boolits as you can, things like that, with medium to low loads. See what the gun tell you. Your first post indicates you are trying to fix things or expecting things will work better with a super hard alloy. It doesn't work that way with cast, except in the advertisements from the commercial cast boolits concerns and their "HARDCAST!!!" hype.

Bhn has it's place, but it's down the road a ways in this case. Simple WW type alloys in the 9-12 Bhn range can work well in the majority of guns with low to moderate loads, and up into magnum pistol range with care put into all the other issues.

[44man]

Speaking of lube grooves, though, I have a couple of other boolits that only have one lube groove that do pretty well for me--with one that does extremely well (another boolit, .452 200SWC from Lee, of all places).

But typically, like you, I prefer two lube grooves as to one. Couldn't tell you exactly or scientifically why; maybe I'm just superstitious? :)

Now, if you want to talk about too much work and making a huge mess and endless frustration, for me, that would be pan-lubing, or PAIN-LUBING as I often refer to it. But danged if it doesn't work and work really well for most people.

Sometimes I wonder if, unbeknownst to me, a black cat walked in front of me the first time I was headed out to the shop to try my hand at pan-lubing. I don't remember breaking any mirrors or walking under any ladders.

It may have been, however, on a Friday the 13th, which if that is the case, would explain it all. :)

:coffee:
:drinks: Right on. I don't use my lube-sizer for some boolits because it has CR in it that I like for others and changing lube is a BIG pain. I hate pan lubing too and Felix might not take nicely to it. Stearate makes it harder to remelt time after time and I am afraid it might ruin the lube. The stuff is important to keep ingredients blended and if you ever tried to melt the stuff, you would understand. The high heat needed is not good for other ingredients.
I would like Felix to comment.
I don't care how much work it takes me, never has any lube been as accurate and Felix deserves a place in the history of the cast boolit. I don't think I could have ever shot the groups I get without his contribution.
The big problem with Felix lube is that all my friends keep using my supply! [smilie=1:
They all seem to be doing something else when I need to make more! :bigsmyl2:

[Three44s]

LLA is a great product!

I have not tried the various lubes sold here but I am sure they are even better from what I read. But LLA has filled the bill when used as it was intended.

First, I ranch for a living .......... so sticky or stinky is no bother to me. Second, I thin my LLA with mineral spirits ...........

............ not 50/50 ........... just a few drips ............. shake it ........... when it just changes it's thickness .............. use it!

I LLA Lee's micro grooved boolits with it thinned and shoot as cast in three .44 mag revolvers, .41 mag and .357's. I just about exclusively lube these bullets with thinned LLA .... TWICE.

When I clean, I use the Copper Chore boy and Lewis lead remover, conventional solvents ...............

................ and USP bore paste!

When a gun new to me stops leading under such conditions ............. I QUIT the bore paste.

............. POLISH till it does not stick ............

I drive these as cast tumble lubed boolits at velocities they were intended to run at!

When I want to "poney up" the velocity, I run conventional boolits and size them appropriately.

I am sure that Felix's lube and the other's available here on this forum are real gems ..... I fully intend to use them as well, but LLA works ......... if you use it as intended ..........

.......... if it's too stinky .......... or sticky ........ for someone ......... I'll gladly give them my address and they are more than welcome to send me their unused supply.

Three 44s