WW boolits in a trapdoor??

[winchester94]

Was wondering if anyone is/ has been shooting WW boolits in a trapdoor. If NOT water quenched I was thinking they may be soft enough.......

[Doc Highwall]

It will be fine with smokeless powder especially if you add lead to it. For real black powder I would just use lead and tin. This book would be a good one to have for anyone who loads and shoots a trapdoor.

[Don McDowell]

Wheelweights up until a few years ago worked fine for most things. As of late they seem to contain alot of tin and antimony and may be not as good of a bullet source as they once were.
Some folks blend them about 50-50 with pure lead for bpcr type shooting.

The original bullets for the springfield were of 16-1 alloy , and many an old timer shot those rifles with lymans #2 alloy.

But the short answer to your question is yes. They work/worked fine, so long as the bullet diameter as dropped from your mould is proper for the rifle.

[Kraschenbirn]

Not in my H&R Trapdoor (yet) but recently began working up a smokeless load for my Pedersoli RB using ACWW and IMR4198. First batch, shot in a gusty 15-20 mph crosswind, produced a 3 1/2" (horizontal) x 1 3/4" (vertical) 10-shot group,off sandbags, at 100M. Already have another 25 loaded rounds sitting on bench waiting for a day with less wind.

Once I've got the RB sorted out, I'll try developing a similar smokeless load equivalent to the original 405 gr/55 gr FFg "carbine" for my Cavalry Model TD.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

I shoot a lot of WWs in my TDs but they are cast and sized to fit the bores and I do not depend on "bumping up". I've used that alloy with very good success with both BP and smokeless. Wolf's book is indeed a "must have for replicating TD loads. However, knowledge of advanced cast bullet loading can also be used quite successfully with TDs, which is what I do. I will add that WW alloy gives better accuracy with smokeless loads and is where I most use it. I prefer the arsenal alloy of 1-16 tin - lead alloy with Rapine 460500 or Lee's 405HB bullets for my BP loads.

Larry Gibson

[NickSS]

I have used pure WW for trapdoor loads and got good results as long as the bullet fit the rifling. I use a lot of pure WW in several other 45-70s and other BPCR for practice loads. However for long range Black loads I use 30 -1 alloy and for other BP loads I use a 3 to 1 mix of soft lead to WW. I found that softer bullets make for better shooting with BP.

[winchester94]

Thanks everyone. I think I've got what I needed here. Just gotta figure out what size mold I need. Any tips for slugging a 3 groove bore??

[adrians]

+1 on docs reccomendation , get a copy of WOLFS book ,
i thought my 1873 's bore was clean until i read and used wolfs technique and i got a ton of **** out of the bore i didm't even know was there ,the book is a must for trap shooters(i think anyway),
i shoot the 457124 and it does pretty good not a tackdriver but they were never meant to be,"aim for the belt buckle get a head shot" my wife says.:twisted::coffeecom:twisted:

[winchester94]

Ordered "The Book" last night. Hope to get it in the next few days. I'll give some feedback (for what it's worth) when I get it. This seems to be the bible on the 45-70 as everyone that has posted to either one of the threads I started has said to get it at one time or another. Glad to know it's out there and all suggestions/ advice is appreciated.

Anyone use the Lee crimp die on this cartridge?? Am still curious as to the drawbacks experienced using an HB bullet in the TD.

[montana_charlie]

This seems to be the bible on the 45-70 .
It may interest you to know that 'the book's' recommendations to use drilled out primer holes, and magnum primers is not currently considered to be extremely helpful.
CM

[winchester94]

Thanks CM. I'll remember that.

[winchester94]

Bill,

Jealous of the Carbine TD. Let me know how your loads work out.

[winchester94]

I know I'm beating this to death, but still curious about HB 405gr (Lee)in the TD. I know one member says they avoid them, just not sure why.

Also, does anyone here use Pyrodex as a BP sub in their TD???

[405]

win94,
As with loading for any of these type guns you have to look at the Big Picture. There simply is NO single magic, cheap, easy way to get it done. Cryptic, single-word answers, cheap and easy fix solutions always sound good on paper or posted on the net. If you are lucky, and your TD has a tight bore in good condition with a reasonable throat there is no reason to think that any suitable 45 Rifle bullet wouldn't do reasonably well. The hollow base thing is used by some to make up for UNDERSIZED bullets in the usually generous TD bores. Others simply use the big 500 gr Govt. bullet with soft alloy to bump up to groove. How well either can compensate???- some claim great things but I've found both methods to be iffy. The most direct way I've found to good accuracy in a TD is to start with a TD that has a decent bore to begin with- sounds strange huh. Then shoot bullets sized to at least the groove diameter of the bore at velocities that are reasonable for the TD and the old BP guns in general. I don't shoot BP subs so won't even go there. But yes, no reason a sub wouldn't work.

I shoot both BP and smokeless in mine. I keep the vels down to reasonable BP type levels. I shoot a regular grease groove, gas checked bullet from a Mountain Molds mold that is 440 gr., at 8-14 BHN, sized to .461-2", and pan lubed with a soft BP lube. For the smokeless I use 23 gr 5744 with fluffy dacron filler. For BP I just fill it up with GOEX FFg and top with a .030" card wad. Both my TDs shoot .5-.7" groups at 50 yards and 1-3" groups at 100 with the Buffington sights and blade fronts. I get no leading.

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
Last time I shot my 1884 was two times "up There" ago. I used WW but I am cautious to be sure all my boolits are throat diameter +. In my 84 (.462+ throat) a .463 is minimal. My best mold is an old one from NEI that drops at .465 with WW.
Smaller than throat diameter + is just a waste of time using smokeless.
Mike in Peru

[winchester94]

405 and Mike

I appreciate the posts. That told me alot. I am currently waiting on a Lyman 457193 mold to arrive so I can cast a few and see how they fit the barrel. Since it's a three groove, I'm not sure of any better way to "slug" the barrel. If too small, I guess I may have a mold for sale.
As for velocity, I plan on keeping it down to 11-1200 fps and under 20,000 CUP.

[405]

win94,
That's a good plan with the pressures/velocities. You can take a good quality slug of soft alloy that has been driven thru the bore to make an attempt at measuring groove diameter. I use a thin strip of pop can metal and lightly pinch it around the slug so as to stay in a perfect circle but not dip down into one of the grooves.... just so the metal rides the tops of the lands. Gingerly measure across the diameter. Then subract the 2x thickness of the metal strip= groove diameter.

That 457193 and it's gas-checked cousins are good all around bullet for many 45-70 applications. Chances are pretty good it will be undersize for the TD. Even if you can get it to obturate or "bump up" to groove diameter, that doesn't mean the entire length of a bullet bumps up to groove diameter. I'm of the opinion that bullets with fairly long shanks, and that includes most conventional cast bullets, chances are pretty good only the rear portion will bump up to fill the grooves. That will leave the front portion to slump or cant during the obturation. That in turn may lead to a sealed bore but two things may happen. 1) the bullet is crooked when in free flight and/or 2) the base may get cocked off of plumb so when the base reaches the muzzle the dreaded "side ways jet" effect takes place and the bullet is sent askew. These are both theories I know about undersize bullets that are asked to obturate to "fill" a bore, but they are my theories and I'm stickin' to 'em :).... and that is not even taking into account the possibility of base and side erosion.... which is another topic related to undersized bullets.

Last week I took a couple of muzzloaders out to shoot so took along a TD also. Had 3 left over 45-70 TD rounds sitting in a box for a couple of months so decided to shoot them up. This load is MM 440gr GG/GC sized .461 over 23 gr 5744 with fluff dacron filler. The bullet has a tapered front drive band and is seated to engrave the rifling in the leade when the round is chambered. Kind of a mini bore rider idea. 50 yds- center to center group size is .50". The TD is a pretty much stock M1884 rifle with Buffington rear and blade front.

[winchester94]

405,

Where did you get the .461 mold? I have been looking ( maybe in all the wrong places) and the largest I'm finding is a .460.

[405]

win94,
Actually for all my odd ball sized rifles like the 45-70 Trapdoor, 43 Spanish Rem RB, 44-90 SBN Sharps 1874 and 405 Win M95 I found no regular production molds that matched what I wanted to do. Also, I have specific MM molds for certain other rifles. I used Mountain Molds for casting these specific bullets. You design your own bullet using the online design program. Send the $. Dan cuts the mold and sends it to you. WARNING! what you design is what you get. I've found MM molds to be very close to what is ordered and of very high quality. The 440 gr GG GC bullet pictured is from a MM mold and drops at .462" with 20:1 - a fairly soft alloy. That means that most any other alloy that is harder or with more tin/antimony will drop larger including WW alloy.

http://www.mountainmolds.com/

[winchester94]

405,

Thanks again. I wasn't sure who MM was, but I'm good to go now. I'll check them out this evening. I just got a new Lyman off ebay w/handles for $60 and want to see how it casts first. I don't think I'll have any problem reselling it if too small.

[405]

win94,
Yes, the best outcome of course would be for your new mold to work well in the trapdoor. Two things to try as has been suggested in the various "trapdoor" threads currently running would be: 1) mildly compressed full load of black powder with a .030-.060" card base wad and 2) a "BP velocity similar" load of appropriate smokeless. good luck

[winchester94]

405,

Just got done looking at the MM website. I can't believe I hadn't seen this before. It's awesome. I don't suppose you'd care to share the specs you used for your mold? I believe you said you have an 84 and I have a 73, so I'm sure there will be a few differences, but I'm still curious.

Thanks again for turning me on to MM!

[405]

win94,
No problem with sharing the specs. Just don't know if it would be what you would want for your purposes in your M73. For general purpose shooting in the trapdoor and possibly other 45-70s at the ranges most likely shot you may opt for a bullet that more closely resembles either the Lyman mold you're getting but with a GC shank or it's RCBS cousin. Not too hard to do on the MM design program but many details that have to be considered when filling in the blanks in the design page. One idea for a more general purpose bullet would be a slightly wider meplat with a slightly shorter nose and with a final weight closer to maybe 420 grs. The advantage to that design would be multiple use in say both single shots and lever guns. I use a Lee push thru sizer for most all my specifically sized bullets. I take Lee push thru dies that are .457" and open them up (by lapping) to desired sizes. In the case of the trapdoor specific bullets.... .461" and .462". For my modern 45-70s that have .458" groove diameters I opened up a .457" Lee push thru die to .459".

No matter, it's all up to the individual. I don't have the time right now but can check my paper file and see if I have the original design sheet for the MM 440gr .462" and put together a copy and send it via PM- maybe tomorrow or next day.

[winchester94]

405,

Sounds great. I like your approach with your posts. Much more informative to know how someone else does it vs how someone should do it. If you're in Oklahoma, I'd like to buy you a beer or coffee sometime.

Aaron

[winchester94]

Attempted to slug the barrel today. land to groove was a consistant .455. If I can count on the original spec of a .005 groove, then that puts it at .460. Guess it's a starting place. I'll cast a couple of boolits with my Lyman (when it gets here) and see how they fit.

Mail just came, got my 45-70 book from Wolf... .....can't talk anymore.....

[georgewxxx]

If it's too small, consider learning how to beagle a mould. I would suggest trying side by side shooting with both versions to see what one does the best for you. Look in Castpics at the bottom of this page on how to beagle a mould. ...Geo

[Abert Rim]

405: You're using dacron with XMP5744? I thought this was one powder that was completely position insensitive. Are you doing this for safety reasons or to reduce ES/SD?

[winchester94]

Geo,

Thanks for the link. I'll do that.