Is Velocity your only target, or is the Target your target?

[45nut]

I read here often a newcomer seems obsessed with matching full speed of factory ammunition, often discounting the primary reason we shoot, hitting the target the gun is aimed at.

It seems to me that whether or not the gun can hit what it is aimed at matters more than what the chronograph reports back as the velocity of the load.

Back in the 1870's the 45-70 was tested at just over 1500fps and was hitting at over two miles away, yet some folks feel obsessed with reaching 2700fps from their guns right at the outset of their forays in shooting the cast boolit.

Patience and experience, testing and progress and yes, the speed and accuracy goals can usually be attained, but starting out expecting excellence and perfection from the first pull of the trigger is usually only going to result in frustration and disappointment whether you are shooting cast or jacketed and to lock yourself into the fps goal over all else seems counter intuitive.

Patience my friends, patience. Whether that first load takes 1/10000th of a second less to smack that paper matters much much less than simply hitting that paper.

When I first started any endeavor the excitement and reports of remarkable success is rarely the domain of the newcomer but the seasoned veteran.

I cannot repeat the importance enough of taking the time to understand the reasons behind the cautious nature , but everyone chooses their own path.

An old bit about the bush pilots in Alaska is there are old pilots and bold pilots,, rarely old bold pilots.

Approaching the endeavor of shooting cast should be no different. :cbpour:

[mpmarty]

Agreed, but velocity can aid accuracy as in giving the crosswind less time to drift the boolit. I've never had a problem with "not enough" velocity but feel it does add a component to be desired.

[Bass Ackward]

We want what we want.

We expect that what we know will provide "us" with the path to what we want.

The wild card is our gun. And if Professor Gun will grant our wish.

Sometimes we win and sometimes we don't. In between is why that is to be discovered.

[Doc Highwall]

I go for accuracy first and power second. I love to see the looks on peoples faces when they see my targets after I tell them it was shot with cast bullets.

[PWS]

Agreed, but velocity can aid accuracy as in giving the crosswind less time to drift the boolit. I've never had a problem with "not enough" velocity but feel it does add a component to be desired.

Accuracy first but well put MP; it's like the saying about atheles, given two of the same skill level, the stronger is the better.

[white eagle]

same train of thought goes for saving money by handloading
wow look at the money I will save by doing it ones self
I started handloading for better accuracy
speed is never a issue....
small groups are
pinpoint accuracy is king

[selmerfan]

Accuracy is king, but for HUNTING purposes I will have a certain velocity threshold that I want to reach. With larger caliber (.35 and up) boolits this isn't a bit issue, but with my .30-06 and cast HPs, I will want some expansion. That being said, I don't have an HP'd .30 cal mold yet, my .30-06 shoots the 311299 VERY well with moderate loads and I'm in on the NOE GB for a 311299 with one HP'd cavity. I'll get back to you next fall. :)

[45nut]

I was mainly referring to the milsurps like the M-N that lot's of folks are casting for now due to the lack of cheap surplus ammo, a couple hundred fps at 100 yards is much less of a concern then your skill behind the butt of the gun.

[geargnasher]

For me, most of the time velocity is an exremely important factor. Once I get a load to group well in a certain gun and am satisfied with the overall way it shoots, THEN I get the chronograph out and study the external ballistics some more. I've found that certain combinations of gun, boolit, powder, primer, seating depth, alloy, lube, and a bunch more nuances tend to like a pretty narrow velocity window for best accuracy, this usually ties in to barrel harmonics in rifles and developing the correct load for lowest muzzle pressure and smoothest rise and fall to the pressure curve inside the barrel. When I know the velocity window, that's just one more gauge on the dashboard to tell me what's going on with everything else.

One thing's for sure, though, anything faster than the peak accuracy window deteriorates groups. This goes for j-words as well as boolits, just that the window is in a different place. I think of it like "over-blowing" a brass instrument, there is a window of performance above which things get "blatty" and very harsh.

Gear

[gon2shoot]

I never cared how fast the boolit was going when I missed. :rolleyes:

[runfiverun]

there has to be a balance.
i remember once my dad saying to me "i think those things are going too fast".
refering to a steel shot hunting load i was working on.
the accuracy/patterning was there, but the dwell time was not, the steel balls were just perforating the birds.
not even shocking them it happened so fast.
sound familiar?

still working on pushing things along in the rifles though, it's a challenge beyong just shooting tight groups.
it ain't easy and there ain't no magic formula.
i would really like to know the number of guy's that have success right off the bat, of just casting and getting speed/accuracy.
i can think of two instances where they hit a good balance first try, but still didn't hit full jaxketed velocities.
i have been working on it for quite some time and only have a hand full of rifles i can get speed and accuracy from with plain cast.
the other 90% stay within the velocity/accuracy window. [rpm threshold] or push past it some with a bit of extra work.
not counting my leverguns and plain based boolits at over 1600 fps which takes work too.
i probably have 5 rifles out of 50 sumthin that push the velocity over 2300 fps and hold accuracy.
that number will change with time as i build more rifles for shooting cast this way, and spend more time working with the ones i have, but i doubt the majority of them will ever go past 2k.

btw accuracy to me is an inch or under at 100 yds. with small bore rifles
most often i can get cast to group better than jacketed, with a bit of work.

[onesonek]

More velocity can be helpful to a point, but accuracy is paramount. I feel shooting in the wind accurately, has more to do with the practical experience factor and boolit design, rather than speed. If one can't read the wind, 2-3-500+ fps more, isn't going to have a major effect on group sizes. Yes there is less drift, but not enough to make the difference when comparing a 2+ moa shooter against a 1 or sub moa shooter. At least not out to what I consider normal hunting distances.
I'll use the term average loosely, but in example,,, for the average boolit/bullet, and for every 100 fps increase, one gains about a 25 yd gain in PBR, and 1" less drift per 100 yds. That will vary of course, with design characteristics. As in this example,,,I have two different firearms chambered in the same round. The one shooting a heavy weight at 2700fps, and it is easier to shoot more accurately at 1000 yds than the other shooting a lighter weight at 4100 fps. The slower has about half the drift. So yes drift is a factor, but it's the design and not so much the speed that is the factor.
For me personally, I'll sacrifice speed before accuracy. Then it's matter of shooting within the limitation's,,,the round's, the firearm's, and mine! If I want or need more power, then I will use or get something that will do it accurately. If I can acheive both accuracy and speed within a given rig,,,well sometimes it does work, sometimes it doesn't. One can only experiment and hope for the best.
It just seems to me from what I have learned so far with cast,,, the faster one pushes them, the more everything has to be in sync, and that ain't always an easy combination to find.

[montana_charlie]

Agreed, but velocity can aid accuracy as in giving the crosswind less time to drift the boolit. I've never had a problem with "not enough" velocity but feel it does add a component to be desired.
I see it differently.

I choose a cartridge which will do the job that rifle is purchased for.
A hot .22 will do some fabulous things that a 30-06 couldn't touch, but the old workhorse will do '30-06 work' much more reliably than the hi-speed pipsqueak.

Once you settle on a cartridge and bullet weight for your job, you already know that it's velocity will fall within a given range of speeds...primarily dependent on the bullet weight chosen. That bullet will acheive it's peak accuracy potential somewhere within it's own range of velocities...and when you hit it you will see the results on the target.

There is no need to actually know the velocity. The difference between 2600 fps and 2800 fps is pretty meaningless at the target end. But, if you measured it, you would probably find that it is traveling at something close to it's peak ballistic coefficient. That situation (among other things) has the effect of minimising wind drift.

The same bullet traveling faster (slightly outside of it's optimum velocity) may have less time to be 'drifted' by wind, but it's slightly lessened stability would cause it to be more greatly affected. The change in BC would probably also cause the bullet to shed velocity quicker than otherwise, resulting in a problem in elevation, as well.

The most accurate load for a given cartridge in a given rifle is it's most accurate load...irrespective of velocity. If you need more punch on the other end, choose a cartridge designed to deliver that while working well within it's range of possible velocities.

Only rarely is a 'maximum load' also the 'most accurate' one.

CM

[waksupi]

I've never been a speed freak on muzzle velocity. I find the most accurate load for the firearm, and that is what I shoot. If it isn't enough power, go up in bore size.
Lots of hunters buy a whizbang that will drive tacks at 500 yards. They never seem to take into consideration most shots are well below that, if they are any kind of a real hunter, and not just a shooter.
Look at ballistics charts, and you will see you are not really gaining that much with higher velocities, as far as trajectory goes. It takes leaps of around 400 fps to see much difference.
Much better to have an accurate load, and to get close to your quarry. I've killed more antelope with conventional hand guns and flintlocks than any other type firearms, and neither are known as real flat long range shooters.

[selmerfan]

there has to be a balance.
i remember once my dad saying to me "i think those things are going too fast".
refering to a steel shot hunting load i was working on.
the accuracy/patterning was there, but the dwell time was not, the steel balls were just perforating the birds.
not even shocking them it happened so fast.
sound familiar?



You're not actually suggesting that was a legitimate commentary on steel shot, right?

[mpmarty]

BC or ballistic coefficient as I understand it is a function of sectional density and shape. Ingalls did some good work on this years ago. As velocity increases BC changes too.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

OK, let me throw a bit of different light on this subject.

I am a long term reloader - since the 60s - but a short term reloader as far as Hunting w/cast rifle Boolits.

Then, throw in the factor that using my RUGER #1 in 45/70, I can safely load boolits from about a 1000fps and on up to the 2500fps range.

Now, I have approached this loading project in about the same way I have almost always approached working up "J" bullets in the rifles which have passed through my hands over the years.

Almost always, I have found my best "J" groups when approaching or at maximum published load levels.

Now, enter the Boolits in the 45/70 and suddenly the picture is no longer as clear!

Yes, I would like higher velocities, making it easier to close the deal at 200 - 250yds, but I also greatly desire to obtain groups resembling those I expect from my "J" bullet rifles.

Being about one year into this 45/70 project, I am not sure the higher velocities are compatable with the small groups.

From everything I am reading from the experienced posters, quite possibly NOT!

I do have some more tests with additional powders to run this Spring, and a pile of test targets to again go over to see if some earlier tests at lower velocity, showed any promise.

But from all my questions, the answers rec'd and my reading of related posts, it also seems like 45/70s tend to shoot better with the 425 - 465gr boolits then with the 350gr I have been shooting/testing.

So, if my test groups don't soon show a higher degree of promise then already seen, a new mold at a heavier wt. will likely be in the picture, along with somewhat lower velocities.

I have never needed to settle for greatly lower velocities, if any lower, to obtain the desired groups. So, as already said, this cast boolit hunting is putting a different and not as easily defined answer to the origional posters question.

Can I have my cake and eat it too with the 45/70 and cast boolits?

Afraid only time and more tests will, I hope provide the answer.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Bullshop Junior]

Ken, It depends on what I am shooting, but most of the time, if I want speed, it's in my 22/250, and I used the swaged bullets. The rest of the time, I am more for the size target I can hit.

[Kraschenbirn]

Looking back in time, I'd say accuracy has alway been my primary emphasis. When I first began reloading, it was a matter of economics. DCM ammo for my Springfield and .22s was readily available and relatively inexpensive but, I guess I'd read too much Jack O'Conner and just had to have a .270 Win. Once I acquired one, I found that I wanted to shoot it more than I could afford...I was still in high school, earning $.75/hr loading dairy route trucks in the mornings before I went to school (Anybody else remember getting milk delivered to your door?) and picking up a few extra bucks, now and then, shooting fox and coyote for bounty and pelts. My Boy Scout rifle team coach was a reloader and who taught me the basics, including how to form my .270 Win. from milsurp '06 cases. Initially, I was happy to match factory ammo accuracy and wasn't really concerned with pushing the velocity envelope. Then, as I gained experience, I found that I could consistently better factory loads and the rest, as they say, is history.

I'll admit, like most reloaders, I've tinkered with "hot" loads from time to time but still will take X-ring accuracy over a couple hundred extra fps any day of the week. All the cast boolit loads I've worked up for my various milsurps run in the 1850-2100 fps range and all will equal or better ball ammo accuracy out past 200M.

Bill

[wallenba]

Since I only hunt geese, turkey and squirrel, hitting the target is my only concern when reloading. Shotgun for the birds, .22 for the tree rat. All my centerfire rifles are paper punchers only now.
Velocity takes a back seat.

[runfiverun]

i probably should have mentioned this was in 1989 long before the h/v factory stuff we have now. there were no 3-1/2" shells available, and few 3" hulls worth reloading.
federal was working on upping thier velocity a little at a time and thier 1450fps loads were a few years out still.
most factory steel shot loads were in the 1250 range and would just blow feathers off a bird without much damage.
all i shot were shotguns at the time and didn't even own a rifle or handgun except an old pump sears .22.
but i knew there had to be a better way, velocity had to be the answer because i sure couldn't get steel to weigh more.


i'm fairly certain that #4 shot at 1750 may have been to fast.
you could visibly see the bird being hit and just flying off.
it perhaps died later, but showed no indication of slowing down at the time.
now if you hit that bird at 15 yds there wasn't enough to go pick up.
and at 40 yds there wasn't much steam left in them little pellets to kill.

too much ,then too much, then not enough.
no balance whatsoever.

now a load of number 2's at 1425 much better balance.
birds fell dead.
you still didn't want to shoot them anywhere but in the head at close distance.
but you could shoot them at 15-20 yds and pick them up and eat them.
and still bring them down at 40 or so yds.

[stubshaft]

For me, accuracy is the key. I don't worry too much about hunting because I can get close enough to send a leisurely boolit into an animal.

[montana_charlie]

BC or ballistic coefficient as I understand it is a function of sectional density and shape. Ingalls did some good work on this years ago. As velocity increases BC changes too.
Sectional density is a function of mass versus cross sectional area. In bullet-speak that means length versus diameter. All bullets of the same weight and diameter will have the same sectional density, regardless of variations in shape.
High sectional density aids in penetration if the bullet is moving. If it is motionless, it still has the same sectional density.

Ballistic coefficient is a function of shape AND velocity. In other words, it is a matter of streamling and balance...and how a known shape passes through the atmosphere at a given speed.
Once you choose the bullet you intend to use, the 'shape' part is set in stone. The only thing you have control over is 'velocity'.
If velocity exceeds the range where the 'shape' has it's best BC, your results will suffer and your bullet may even become less stable.

Velocity, in and of itself, is not an aid to accuracy. Velocity doesn't add anything to the results on a target (not counting penetration) which can't be achieved with a sight adjustment.

CM

[troy_mclure]

i like speed because it makes the gun more accurate for me. less drop to calculate etc...

plus id like the boolit to reach the target with the energy to do what it is supposed to.

[Jim]

About twenty years ago, I learned about the point of diminished returns. When I did, I took the battery out of my chrony, put it in the closet and haven't looked at it since.

[btroj]

With cast I generally want accuracy. Unless I am working up a hunting load I don't worry much about velocity. When you get accuracy you have found a velocity that load/gun combination likes.

When I go hunting I have a velocity I am looking for and search for a powder that will give me what I want. I rarely am looking for redline velocity, just enough to get the job done. I actually searched for a low velocity load for my 32-20 for squirrels! Got down to 800 fps in my Marlin with good accuracy.

Doesn't matter how fast it is going if it doesn't go where you want. Key is to find the combination of velocity and accuracy that gives you what you need.

[nanuk]

hmmmm.... three attempts at a response, and I still can't fully address my goals....


What does that say about me?


I know... I want it all! Even if I don't utilize it.

[PAT303]

I don't know what it's like in America but in Australia every new comer is only interested in speed.Forget natural point of aim,breathing,sight picture,relaxed muscles,trigger control and all the other non important things,as long as the boolits are doing warp speed and flatterning the grass around the muzzle at every shot thats all that matters. Pat

[HangFireW8]

I read here often a newcomer seems obsessed with matching full speed of factory ammunition, often discounting the primary reason we shoot, hitting the target the gun is aimed at.

Yes, I've noticed that. There seems to be a never ending supply of newbies seeking difficult performance parameters. Nothing to do but try to gently guide them along. Seeing 2-3 pages of helpful responses without the OP posting again is kind of sad, though.

I've been reloading for 20-some years before I came here, so I'm already over the velocity. If I want velocity I'll get out the Swift or the 300 Mag. Performance means hitting where I want it to hit.

I like cast bullets in the 8mm Mauser, especially heavy ones. They go about the same speed as the jacketed ones! Cheaper to shoot and more fun. If I decide to take them hunting I don't have to worry if they were made for the 8mmRemMag or 325WinMag. I decide their terminal performance parameters.

Getting itty bitty groups while the young bucks next to me spray with their counter-sniper-wannabe rigs (you know, with the folded bipod interfering with the bags) is really fun, especially when comparing targets.

[Von Gruff]

I initially cast for economics but like all aspects of the shooting game I indulge myself in, I wanted to explore the boundaries in both velocity and accuracy, and hopefully the best combination of both.
Once I got the highest velocity (2400fps aprox) I could get with the accuracy I deemed necessary to hunt, (with suitable alloys), out to 250yds with the 7x57 and 150yds+ for the 404 should the oportunity arrise I turned to other areas of the casting game.
I found an accurate load in both rifles in the 14-1500fps for plain pleasurable plinking, and another node in the 18-1900fps range.
So I have three loads for each rifle but the common goal in deciding on each of the loads was accuracy in the velocity range I chose to work in. Incidently each of the loads would 'hunt' should the need be there.

Von Gruff.

[waksupi]

Seeing 2-3 pages of helpful responses without the OP posting again is kind of sad, though.


Actually, I will do much the same thing. when I have a question, I figure I'm the dummy at the time, and will sit back and learn from the answers coming in. Sometimes there is a lot to absorb!

[Bass Ackward]

What I am amazed at is how many people consider velocity and accuracy as being separate.

Some of my most accurate loads have a 2 in front of the other three figures.

[Dean D.]

My load development is solely aimed at accuracy. Once I have settled on the most accurate load I'll run it through the chronograph to see how fast it is for ballistic purposes (drop down range).

[Bret4207]

Someone mentioned balance, that's it for me. I've done the 4200 fps thing, the 250gr 35cals at 2800 thing, been through the "the more it kicks the better" stage, the stage of dumping bunches of bullets in the general direction of the target and of course the lead filler sewer pipe stage. I seek a balanced load that is accurate, or adequate velocity for my purposes and one the pleases me and more importantly my gun.

As for noobs Ken, IME it's the very rare nooby that comes here or elsewhere with an open mind, is willing to accept much of his ideas are simply wrong and that there is a learning curve to this game that takes many people decades to grasp.

[x101airborne]

jacketed or cast, I never cared about velocity (high end). Most of the time I find myself loading down to increase penetration and minimize bullet "blow up". I have only killed one deer past 200 yards, and can easily dope my 44 mag at 1300 fps out to that range.

[NHlever]

I have a friend that loads the snot out of his 45-70, and claims that his goal is to flatten the trajectory. He is convinced that his 350 grain J word bullets are shooting dead flat out to 100 yards, and I'm sure not going to tell him he is wrong. Personally, I think that he just wants the biggest, badest 45-70 NEF single shot around, and likes to intimidate shooters who shoot it. He has shot black bears ( in snares) moose (35 yards) and a few deer ( furthest was about 70 yards, and it didn't go well with his lightly constructed Hornady 300 grain bullet......... made him switch to the 350 grain). All that he has proved really is that he can tolerate recoil, but I notice he is still using the box of Jacketed bullets he bought a few years ago.... My cast hunting loads have been around 1900-2100 fps in 30, and 35 caliber, and somewhat less than that in the larger 44-45 calibers. Accuracy has been my goal, and I'm just fascinated when I shoot small groups with used wheelweights, etc. For some reason, I have found the .22 caliber cast bullets to shoot well easier at higher velocities than the larger calibers. Now, if I could only shoot as well as my guns can, I would be all set.

[btroj]

What I am amazed at is how many people consider velocity and accuracy as being separate.

Some of my most accurate loads have a 2 in front of the other three figures.

I have no doubt that accuracy can, and is, achieved at higher velocities. I have no experience in this realm as most of my shooting is either handguns or lever actions.
I do not view them as separate items but rather as two factors that need to be balanced, along with many other factors.

When I load for hunting I may be willing to give up some accuracy to get velocity with the alloy I want to use. Of I was loading strictly for accuracy then I would tend to look only at accuracy as long as the velocities were within a reasonable range. For example when loading for lever action silhouette I want enough accuracy to hit the rams at 200 but also need enough velocity to knock them over. A load that is really accurate at 1000 fps will be a poor choice for the rams so it won't work. This is where I want a balance between the two.

Bras

[1Shirt]

Well, guess it is my turn to add my 2 cents to this. With but rare (very rare) exception, I have never found the best accuracy in center fire rifles at max vols.
Most often in my experiance the peak accuracy in my rifles will be at someplace between 150-200 fps. below listed max. An exception for me was my 7Rem Mag with 175 gr. blts. It peaked accuracy wise with a max load. That was only true with the 175's, and not with lesser weight blts.

However have also noticed over the years that the listed max for one manual may be a grain or two different than another. This is of course with Jacketed blts overall, but for me applies also to cast (in most cases). Am not much of a handgunner, so my comments apply only for rifle. To me also it is the factor of bbl life and max vols. Am not interested in reducing bbl life and burning the throat out just for that extra few feet per sec. One of the reasons I shoot cast is because it is lighter/easier on bbls than are condoms. Also in the majority of cases, much less recoil.

Don't know the exact ratio of comparison on bbl life between cast and jacketed. Would bet however that bbls would last 4 or 5 times longer with cast than with jacketed, and possibly more. Anyhow, this is an interesting thread!
1Shirt!

[MT Gianni]

I have some guns that I porobably will never hunt with. I also have some accurate loads for them. Curmudgeon may have said it best "We only need enough energy to send the bullet through the target. If it goes through the backer it is just wasted energy".
I think a lot of writers have promoted the idea that the flatter it shoots the easier it is to hit something. This is truee but a great disservice to those who understand, or are attempting to understand, range estimation, tragectory and accurate projectiles.

[45nut]

I don't know what it's like in America but in Australia every new comer is only interested in speed.Forget natural point of aim,breathing,sight picture,relaxed muscles,trigger control and all the other non important things,as long as the boolits are doing warp speed and flatterning the grass around the muzzle at every shot thats all that matters. Pat

That's exactly what I was going for, you nailed it.

[c3d4b2]

When developing loads I usually find 2 loads that are most accurate. The groups generally start large and then will shrink. They then increase in size again and will shrink a second time before growing larger again.

I have always opted for the lower velocity grouping. The difference in wind drift is not that large and it is a lot easier on the barrel throat.

[nanuk]

I came to this cast boolit site with some preconceived notions

I have read for literally over 100 hours on archived threads. I absorbed quite a bit, and have cut and pasted quite a bit.
you see, I am one of these technical junkies. I like to read and have the books on my shelf. If I'm going to do something, I will read up on it from several sources and then go from there with the best manual in hand when I start.

this site has been a great resource and there is scads of great info and knowledge to tap into here.

I think what the problem is, is there are too many "Old Wives" still living that have kept telling tales!

it takes a lot of reading to finally figure out that a lot of what they said was wrong, or simply misplaced.

I have seen the same thing when some are discussing Jwords and hunting. And I read this by pro writers who SHOULD know their stuff. They will say something like ".357mag revolver hunting with a 158gr at 1300 fps is dandy whitetail hunting round within 100-125 yds" and the next article, they will say "a 30-30 winchester with 150gr at 2200 fps is best kept within 100yds and a well placed shot for whitetails... " HUH???? does that extra 1000FPS not get you an extra 100 yds?

so, I rely on the Masters on this site to disspell the myths that exist, as well as to enlighten the ignorant as to what really does work.

such as a 200gr cast slug at impact speeds of 1200fps or more with penetrate a whitetail deer from stem to stern pretty much every time, and will break a shoulder and make soup of hte lungs of a moose, pretty much every time...

this is the stuff I look for. real world experience. I wish a sticky of Truths could be developed.

[btroj]

Sad thing is, there are no absolute truths in shooting. The truth as it relates to shooting is a matter of opinion.

As for the velocity is king attitude of newness, I tend to agree. Not as much with cast but certainly with shooting in general.
Worse to me are the shooters who think there is a magical load that will make the a great shot. There is no replacing years of practice and hard work. Good shooters are not born, they are created. Not saying some have a natural talent but good shots are the product of hard work.

Brad

[dragonrider]

For me velocity can be quite painful, that means I no longer shoot max loads or even medium heavy loads. My shots are all loaded down to levels that allow me to shoot 50 to 200 rounds. If I hit a pie plate at 100 yrds I am happy.

[waksupi]

Sadder yet, is the stuff that hasn't been covered on the current board. I have a stack of print out material at least six inches thick, from the original Cast bullets section, of Shooters.com before they kicked us loose in the ionosphere. I was there probably not much more than a year to gather that. When I look back through them, I do miss some of the old posters like the Mad Mexican. What a hoot! Any one see him around the net?



I came to this cast boolit site with some preconceived notions

I have read for literally over 100 hours on archived threads. I absorbed quite a bit, and have cut and pasted quite a bit.
you see, I am one of these technical junkies. I like to read and have the books on my shelf. If I'm going to do something, I will read up on it from several sources and then go from there with the best manual in hand when I start.

this site has been a great resource and there is scads of great info and knowledge to tap into here.

I think what the problem is, is there are too many "Old Wives" still living that have kept telling tales!

it takes a lot of reading to finally figure out that a lot of what they said was wrong, or simply misplaced.

I have seen the same thing when some are discussing Jwords and hunting. And I read this by pro writers who SHOULD know their stuff. They will say something like ".357mag revolver hunting with a 158gr at 1300 fps is dandy whitetail hunting round within 100-125 yds" and the next article, they will say "a 30-30 winchester with 150gr at 2200 fps is best kept within 100yds and a well placed shot for whitetails... " HUH???? does that extra 1000FPS not get you an extra 100 yds?

so, I rely on the Masters on this site to disspell the myths that exist, as well as to enlighten the ignorant as to what really does work.

such as a 200gr cast slug at impact speeds of 1200fps or more with penetrate a whitetail deer from stem to stern pretty much every time, and will break a shoulder and make soup of hte lungs of a moose, pretty much every time...

this is the stuff I look for. real world experience. I wish a sticky of Truths could be developed.

[Southern Son]

When it comes to my 22/250Imp, I want fast and accurate (really really fast and really really accurate), but with the rifles I am shooting boolits in, accuracy is the main concern (although I do want to develop a black powder load for my 45/70 that will break 1250fps AND be accurate). Most of my cast shooting (.310 Cadet, .44Spl. and .44Mag, 45/70 and .458Win Mag) is about fun. Missing ain't fun, and neither is huge amounts of recoil for the sake of recoil. If my 240grain boolit is only doing 900fps out of my Marlin, so what, as long as it it hitting what I am aiming at.

[Bret4207]

I do miss some of the old posters like the Mad Mexican. What a hoot! Any one see him around the net?

No idea, Mouse too was a hoot.

[44man]

So many great answers! :holysheep
When I was young, there were no deer in Ohio but lots of varmints so I cut my teeth using rifles and revolvers on them.
Accuracy was always first because we could get long ranges and it has continued for me now with revolvers for hunting.
I had a pre 64 Mod 70 with a 6X24 Balvar scope in 220 Swift. Twist was right for the 60 gr Hornady and I shot many chucks at over 600 yards. Drop meant nothing because you learn it for all distances. Neither did velocity. Dope the wind!
I had the scope off to work on bedding once and needed to sight it in again. Sight in was always 350 yards because I used a Rem .222 for closer shots. I had the wife over a RR bank and after every shot, she would point to the hole in the target for me, then retreat over the bank, a good bunker. She kept pointing to the same spot and I was getting a little angry and she must have been missing holes somewhere. After 5 shots I walked down and she was right, I had 5 shots in 1/4". I could not see them with my spotting scope.
A FLUKE, maybe, but I will never admit it! [smilie=l:
But all of you see the revolver groups we shoot and the amount of deer we kill so there should be no question about accuracy first. Once in a while Whitworth makes me take out the chrono and I hate to set the thing up.
Yes, there are velocity points when a boolit has to be made effective and making it faster or slower is not the answer because of accuracy loss.
Having the best bullet for your purpose is wasted if you can't hit what you shoot at and it works the other way too. If your bullet is best at 300 + yards and every deer you shoot is 10 yards, that is not good either. I don't like a pile of smoking mush on the ground! Neither do I like a pencil hole through any animal.
Accuracy is ALWAYS first.

[PAT303]

That's exactly what I was going for, you nailed it.

[smilie=w: What do I win?. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

I was mainly referring to the milsurps like the M-N that lot's of folks are casting for now due to the lack of cheap surplus ammo, a couple hundred fps at 100 yards is much less of a concern then your skill behind the butt of the gun.

With such rifles I advise those seeking velocity (it is the majority of newcomers who do as you mention) that a balance of velocity and accuracy must be found for the type of shooting they desire. I also advise them, as you mention, that velocity for velocity sake is a difficult master. Much easier with such rifles as the MN to get accuracy out of a 160 - 210 gr bullet at 1800 - 1950 fps which will give them all that is needed for accurate shooting to 500 yards. The 2400 - 2800 fps they many times desire is going to be very, very difficult to attain with any degree of accuracy using the regualr type cast bullets they most often mention using. Most often they will not attain any level of accuracy with such loads.

Thus my advise is for them to stay within the relm of easily attained accuracy at what should be an acceptable level of velocity. Unfortuneately many of them are not satisfied with that. They usually either quite using cast bullets or hopefully come around as experience is a good teacher.

Larry Gibson

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

And the winner is, PAT!

The prize is, dadadada (drum roll) --- 1,475,242 slightly used (only once) "loop grooves."

You is one lucky guy! :bigsmyl2:

Keep em coming!

Crusty Dery Ol'Coot

[Johnw...ski]

Weather it is a .22 cal. or a .45 cal all I look for is group size and the score, have never chronographed any of them and don't really care as long as they can consistantly penetrate that sheet of paper.

John

[montana_charlie]

Sad thing is, there are no absolute truths in shooting. The truth as it relates to shooting is a matter of opinion.
...and sometimes a matter of chance...
Bullets can do unexpected things, even when circumstances remain unchanged.

CM

[Ugluk]

I only shoot handguns at paper for now, so penetration and expansion is not yet an issue.
Sometimes a power factor has to be met, otherwise I go for the tightest groups with the least recoil.
I find the chronograph a really good tool for a beginner like me as it gives a measured value to one of the many things going on.

[44MAG#1]

Here I am going to put in my less than 2 cents worth but I am concerned about accuray but at the same time if I am shooting a 44 Mag I want a 44 Mag load not a 44 special load. If I want a 44 Special load I will break out my 44 Special. Same senario witha 454 Casull and a 45 Colt. Now I don't mind to give up some velocity but I am not going to haywire with it.
On the other hand I an not going haywire with losing accuracy either. Somewhere there is a balance point between the two.
It is there if one will seek it out. But then again I am not brench rest shooter. Once I get a decent load conbining the 2 I forget the bench.
Just for giggles how many buys a 44 Mag just to turn it into a 44 Special or a 475 Linebaugh to run 950 fps loads in? Or a 357 just to shoot 38 special wad loads in?

[jonk]

High velocity causes as many issues as it solves. Yes, it theoretically reduces drift time by crosswind, but it also leads to greater recoil leading to less accurate shooting, and with cast bullets more blow by and increased chance of leading. If not leading, at least projectile deformation.

I always start by picking a few bullet designs and running them with some middle of the road loads proven in similar cartridges or the same cartridge when applicable. I then choose the best of these and run the ladder, starting at the start load and working to max.

95% of the time, the most accurate load is not the fastest one.

Speed is interesting but I'd rather have accuracy. I CAN push my 50 gr .223 load out to 3200 fps, but given that 3050 shoots more accurately why would I?