Powder measure questions

[GH1]

If I decide to load some cartridges with BP can I use my RCBS smokeless powder measure or do I need to buy a BP measure? What about Pyrodex? What is the purpose of a drop tube, and do I need one? If I'm shooting cast bullets with a smokeless lube will that work?
Thanks.
GH1:bigsmyl2:

[montana_charlie]

If I decide to load some cartridges with BP can I use my RCBS smokeless powder measure or do I need to buy a BP measure?
Yes, you can use your RCBS measure.

What about Pyrodex?
To begin with, you need to use a volumetric measure that is marked off in grains.
Use that to throw a charge (like '70 grains'), then weigh that amount of Pyrodex.
From then on, you can use your RCBS measure to drop Pyrodex charges of the same weight.
But, if you are in a 'load development' process where you want to try a variety of powder charges, it would be best to stick with the volumetric measure until you have the load that works best for you...then weigh it.


What is the purpose of a drop tube, and do I need one?
Originally, reloaders found it difficult to get as much powder in a case as they wanted. By dropping it through a tube, it compacted itself, leaving room for more.

Eventually, shooters came to believe that the gentle compaction caused by dropping, or vibrating the case, yields a charge which is more uniformly 'settled' into the case. This uniformity is believed to aid in causing the powder to burn consistently from shot to shot. Consistency is the soul of accuracy.

If I'm shooting cast bullets with a smokeless lube will that work?
You won't blow anything up, but you might create a mess that's hard to clean out of a barrel.

[GH1]

Thanks for the info. It sounds to me like as long as I get the weight right I can use any powder dispenser I please.
It also sounds like I really don't need a drop tube unless I'm involved with match shooting or something like that, and it would probably be in my best interest to use cast lube to facilitate clean-up.
Thanks for all the info Charlie.

[Don McDowell]

pyrodex is 15% lighter than blackpowder, so to find out the actualy grs weight of the pyrocrap charge you want just substract 15% of the bp charge and your there.
Be sure and clean your gun and your brass after shooting and then recheck often to make sure the corrosive affects of the pyrocrap residue isn't flash rusting the gun or discoloring your brass.

[bigted]

i will chime in on the un-true powders that aproxamate real black powder. these powders WILL harm your firearms and cases more RAPIDLY then the origanal product. ive seen first hand the effects of this stuff in two t/c barrels being bp muzzle loaders. they were not cleaned properly when the fake stuff was used. the only thing that saved my bacon was that i used a powerfull product to swab and scrub them over a two day ordeal to bring them back to a shootable state.

nothing wrong with their use...its just that the un---real bp will need to be checked a couple hours after a thorough cleaning and then a day or so after as well to make sure the flash rust wont take over your gun or cases after using this stuff....this is my experience with it but im not an expert with it...i just prefer to use the origanal product and the cleanup is usually fun and fast as well as thourough. ive found that the need for all natural lube is king of the things that are nessarry for kind and fun bp experience.......good shooting

[kokomokid]

Just DONOT leave any space between powder and bullet.

[oldracer]

I have been using my RCBS powder measure since starting the BPCR madness last summer and the only thing I have noted is that there tends to be some buildup of powder dust between the measure and the body and if it sits for a few weeks w/o use it gets hard to operate. The first time I had to disassemble it and wipe it out well and now I blow it clean with compressed air after I empty the powder. I make sure there is nothing that will cause any static electricity but I do that with all powders. I made a drop tube from a short section of copper 1/4 inch pipe and the threads screw right in where the normal adapters go. I soldered on a 18 inch section of copper tube that just fits into the case of the .45 caliber shells.
As for charge amount, I weight the amount at the start and double check it against my muzzle loader brass charger and found that for example 68gn of FFG or 70gn of FFG exactly match the volume measurements on the adjuster for 68 or 70 and them do the shell loading.

[41wyom]

Hey Charlie,

This is a nit, but.....I use only Swiss 1 1/2 in my .40-70 SS. Most of what I've seen here and other similar forums talk about using very little if any compression with Swiss 1 1/2. I hand weigh each charge and drop it through a BACO drop tube assy. When compressing with the .060" poly wad, the amount of felt compression is quite subtle. Would I lose any consistency by foregoing the drop tube step?

A buddy bought 8-pounds of Swiss and a Lyman BP measure but then decided he just wasn't cut-out for BP use. I just bought the Lyman unit from him to help him out financially. I've heard that the Lyman is a nusiance to set-up but once set, it is fairly repeatable. Correct? I only load for one BP round. All of my smokless is done with a Redding 30 BR.

Thanks!

Tom

[Don McDowell]

Hey Charlie,

This is a nit, but.....I use only Swiss 1 1/2 in my .40-70 SS. Most of what I've seen here and other similar forums talk about using very little if any compression with Swiss 1 1/2. I hand weigh each charge and drop it through a BACO drop tube assy. When compressing with the .060" poly wad, the amount of felt compression is quite subtle. Would I lose any consistency by foregoing the drop tube step?

A buddy bought 8-pounds of Swiss and a Lyman BP measure but then decided he just wasn't cut-out for BP use. I just bought the Lyman unit from him to help him out financially. I've heard that the Lyman is a nusiance to set-up but once set, it is fairly repeatable. Correct? I only load for one BP round. All of my smokless is done with a Redding 30 BR.

Thanks!

Tom

If you slow pour thru a funnel you can get quite a bit of compression without a drop tube.
The Lyman works well with bp, just use the same motion on the upstroke bumping against the stop with the same amount of speed and force.
When you bring the handle down to dump the charge if going straight into the case just come down ever so slowly, to get good compression with or without the drop tube.
Take careful note of the numbers on the slides when you get it adjusted to the weight you want, you can either go back to your written note on the settings or, instead of using the graduations on the slides take measurements with your calibers and jot those down.

[littlejack]

OK guys, please clarify this subject for me.
First off, I am not contradicting anyone on their replies about these powder measures being
safe to use with black powder.
It seems that there has been information wrote, on NOT using the smokeless powder
measures being used for black powder. Apparently, there was the safety issue of a spark
being produced while dropping a charge of bp.
That is great if that information was bull. I just wanted to hear from anyone else who had
heard that, "It is not safe to use the smokeless powder measures".
I use the RCBS Uniflow for my smokeless loads, But have never used it with the bp, because
of the bad press. I weigh each and every black powder charg. I believe that somewhere,
there are a few manufactuers that make measures expressly for bp. Any enlightenment will
be greatly appreciated.
Jack

[montana_charlie]

Yes, there are powder measures built specifically for BP. They have non-ferrous metal parts which prevent striking a spark through friction...and they have non-plastic hoppers which prevent sparks from static electricity.

Perhaps somebody can, but I can't imagine any way to strike a friction spark by rotating the (smooth) metering drum through 150 degrees of arc inside a (smooth) machined frame.

As for the static charge danger...some guys did an experiment where they generated powerful static electricity sparks and applied them directly to piles of BP.
They never succeeded in getting any of it to burn...much less explode.
There is a video, somewhere on the internet.

So, you can develop your own theories about why powder measure manufacturers differentiate between models for smokeless and others for BP.

I think it may have started as a lawyer-induced 'liability thing' which turned into a profit oriented 'more sales thing' by convincing powder measure owners that they needed two units if they load BP and smokeless.


Hey Charlie,
All of my smokless is done with a Redding 30 BR.
Me, too. And, the Redding is like grinding glass when cutting through 4350 sticks for my 7mm Mag loads.
But with BP, it's like stroking a polished dagger with a silk cloth.

The stuff just whispers through...

CM

[Dragoon 45]

I have two Lyman 55's. One is the BP measure and the other is the standard 55. In my owners manual it clearly states do not use the standard Model 55 with BP. I have seen the same warning on other makes of powder measures.

As I am not an engineer or materials specialist, I follow the owner's manuals directions. I suspect most of the warnings are based on fear of lawsuits rather than actual problems with the measures. But I would rather not have a powder measure blow up in my face, as would probably happen if I ignored the directions. No matter how fool-proof any piece of equipment is, there is always some one, some where who will either be able to make it explode or fail in an extremely spectacular and dangerous fashion.

I have friends who have used a standard powder measure with BP for years with no problems. I just don't trust my luck.


OK guys, please clarify this subject for me.
First off, I am not contradicting anyone on their replies about these powder measures being
safe to use with black powder.
It seems that there has been information wrote, on NOT using the smokeless powder
measures being used for black powder. Apparently, there was the safety issue of a spark
being produced while dropping a charge of bp.
That is great if that information was bull. I just wanted to hear from anyone else who had
heard that, "It is not safe to use the smokeless powder measures".
I use the RCBS Uniflow for my smokeless loads, But have never used it with the bp, because
of the bad press. I weigh each and every black powder charg. I believe that somewhere,
there are a few manufactuers that make measures expressly for bp. Any enlightenment will
be greatly appreciated.
Jack

[littlejack]

Thank you fellas for your replies. I just wanted to make sure I was remembering correctly.
I believe that your deductions are correct on the subject. I do not shoot enough bp to warrant going faster with my reloads with a powder measure. I just dip a little, then trickle a little, then drop tube it in the case.
Jack

[bigted]

now i understand the directions that came with the three different meassures i own. i also respect them and adhear to the written word of warning....however;

i cant quiet make the diference between bp and smokeless such as unique. both seem to be flashy and both seem quiet explosive. i cant believe that the plastic sleeve and hopper on two of my meassures wont be just as dangerous with the smokeless as it is warned against using bp thru them.

my lyman power trickler called the 1200 auto feed powder meassure has a plastic body and also a plastic hopper. the feeder is alumanum and the catch pan is as well. i dont see what is so different with using bp thru it ...however...im a scare-dee-cat and dont use it with bp...instead i scoop it with the "plastic" lee scoops and shake it into my rcbs range electronic meassure and sometimes i use the rcbs hand trickler for doing the very same task that the lyman would do in such a short order but that damn warning has me buffalowed.

[Baja_Traveler]

As for the static charge danger...some guys did an experiment where they generated powerful static electricity sparks and applied them directly to piles of BP.
They never succeeded in getting any of it to burn...much less explode.
There is a video, somewhere on the internet.

CM

Didn't find a video, but THIS (http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html) article has great pictures and dialog of the static spark experiments.

After seeing that, I'll have no worries using my standard RCBS powder measure.

[41wyom]

This might not apply, but......some dry bulk materials have an ST rating (1,2, or 3) and within each value range are other values called Kst values. High Kst numbers are more carefully addresed in industry in how protection from explosions are provided. Where industry gets nervous is when fine particulate is airborn. Lots of air and small amout of fine parrticle material in a fixed/constatnt confined volume is the dreaded combination. Think of it as a "dust cloud". Maybe the dust shown in the example photo(s) is not in the same environment or under the same conditions where industry starts looking at pressure rated vessels, blow-out explosion panels, inert gas blanketing or surpression systems? The size of the vessel or container is not a major concern, it's what is happening within the container that is.

Some example Kst values for materials you might recognize:
Wood dust 102
Coal dust 107
Wheat grain dust 125
Sulphur 151
Peat 157
Maize starch 190
Magnesium 508
Alluminum powder 500-1100

If a material has a Kst value, no matter how low, industry gets interested. The above list shows some of the materials with high values.

FWIW

[cajun shooter]

Big Ted, I have a friend who is the BP distributor for Goex in this area. He uses a LEE measure to load his 44-40's with 2F BP. I gave him hell when I first went to his home and saw that. Some months later I saw the BP test where it was subjected to direct electrical sparks with no problems at all. Another myth that has been passed along for years and proven to be false. Think maybe the powder measure folks had a horse in that race. It caused me to purchase both a Lyman and RCBS BP only measures. It's the same with the old wives tale of drinking eight glasses of water a day. I don't know how many times that I have heard that from doctors. They did a test about two years ago that proved it to be false. Doctors stated that they were taught that in Medical school and it turns out to be a falsehood.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Tests have been conducted with 50K volt spark generators and will not ignite BP. Large ammounts of fine BP DUST? now thats a different story.

Any good measure will work, however BP can rust your Measures if left in them in damp areas.

KW
The Lunger

[cajun shooter]

The fine dust is indeed a different story as we have had many grain elavators blow sky high because of the dust in them. I try to sock my powder before adding to any measure.

[bigted]

purrrrfect. im gonna jump on the bandwagon with my lyman 1200 when i get my experimenting done and settle on a proven load for my rifles. till then the load 10 here and load 20 there is just as fast with my dip/weigh method till i get it hammeredout for accuracy....then let er buck

thanks fellas and i have a note on my doghouse that tells my wife that ive been led astray yet again and to please forgive me the mess if i blow er up...lol

[cajun shooter]

This is a picture of a 12 ga. TTN shotgun that was fired with Pyrodex shells and not cleaned. A picture is worth 1000 words!!http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_59204d711c5f5bb33.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=98)

[montana_charlie]

How long did it take to get that way?
CM

[cajun shooter]

About three days. I sent it to a gunsmith in Illinois who was the factory rep to repair the factory chambers. The chambers looked as if someone had taken a welding test in them. The factory told him to smooth them out with a hone. I told him that I shot Black powder and the gun needed to shuck the Nitro 27 or STS hulls. He advised that he did not have any BP shells as he had never fired it. He called back and said that a friend was going to load him some to try out the gun. He sent the gun to me via UPS and when it arrived I dang near fell to the floor. I called him and ask what in the world was going on? He stated that the gun worked fine and that he even cleaned it before shipping. I sent the pics to the factory and they gave me a new set of barrels and he is no longer doing warranty work for them. I did find out that his friend used Pyrodex to load the hulls. If he would have told me what he was doing I never would have allowed it. This is the first gun of mine that was screwed up by that stuff and I saw a revolver that was the same in just one day. I have fired all my guns with nothing but BP and at times waited 4 days to clean them with no problems. I don't understand why people insist on using something that just smokes and is of no benefit to them. If you want to shoot in a black powder class then use the real stuff or shoot in a smokeless class. It's kinda like that old saying Don't call him a cowboy until you have seen him ride.

[boommer]

I think it kind of boils down to the fake stuff is very is to get and black is a little harder.
(Human nature) most will take what seems to be the easy route first then BAMM!~!
I thought that was a friend at the end of tunnel holding a flash lite and whistling for ME!

That's how I see it CS

[bigted]

hey just another thing to watch out for is the cheap holsters that are made in the slim jim style. they still contain tanning salts that are acidic. when the leather gets wet it will release the acid on whatever it is trying to protect. my remington revolver of brass frame and blued barrel.....well its very splotchy now.

i can imagine how your heart fell to the floor when you opened the package and found those rusty barrels. i mostly peed a bit when i pulled the remington out and seen what had happened to a gun that isnt very expensive but it was a gift from my bride and i let some crazy ****e happen to it like this.

an old man when i was a kid always said..."MANY ARE THE LESSONS"

[Lead Fred]

I tried Pyrodex once, it shot so low (1100fps) I gave it away.
After you get the measurement down, you can weigh it, and use a weighed measure.
Also dont forget to sue a drop tube.