Tumble lubing non-TL boolits

[Mattog22]

I know I read about this a while back on this forum but can't find it using the search function. I like the TL method, works well for me so far. The profile boolit in a 6 cavity mold I want is not made made with TL bands (175 gr TC). I know some people have had success tumble lubing standard groove boolits but I don't know if they used a different recipe or did anything different, or if anyone had terrible results with trying it. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt

[HammerMTB]

I TL my .40 cal 175TC boolits. I have thinned the LLA with mineral spirits, so it is easier to put on uniformly and dries faster. Should be no problem if you are shooting them at pistol velocities.

[Three44s]

It is the only sizing/lubing method sold by Lee and they make and sell many molds that are NOT TL variety. (The Lee sizer is a push through and requires LLA for lube)

Also, many folks will apply LLA to a bullet sized and lubed conventionally ......... that is to say they are double lubing .......... conventional and then over the top with LLA when there are leading issues.

Three 44s

[Mattog22]

I forgot that you have to size the non tl boolits, darn, That would add an extra few steps and I have to buy the push sizer. I don't understand why they would make a 6-cavity TL of a SWC that seems to have feeding problems and not make a 6-cavity TL of the TC that everyone loves. Aggravating.

[HammerMTB]

I forgot that you have to size the non tl boolits, darn, That would add an extra few steps and I have to buy the push sizer. I don't understand why they would make a 6-cavity TL of a SWC that seems to have feeding problems and not make a 6-cavity TL of the TC that everyone loves. Aggravating.

You don't need a TL design to use LLA on it. My 6-cav 175TC is a conventional lube groove, but works fine with LLA.
As far as sizing, it depends on the as-cast size. If yours turn out .403 or a bit less, you may not have to size them. More than that and you likely will. but $15 for a sizer isn't that big a deal.

[geargnasher]

My advice here would be to buy the Lee push-though sizer kit, then read the tumble-lube sticky written by Recluse in the lube forum, you'll see how sizing and tumble-lubing can be made super-easy.

Make a batch of his lube formula, tumble the boolits like Recluse recommends, pour them out on a trash bag spread out smoothly on anything flat, let them dry for an hour or so, whang 'em through the sizer, tumble again and throw them out on the trash bag to dry. DONE.

If you follow the instuctions, you'll find the stickiness issue resolved, the drying time cut by 20 to 50 times, and increased effectiveness of the lube. I can size and lube 1000 boolits in the span of a morning while only working at it for an hour or so.

Gear

[Recluse]

I forgot that you have to size the non tl boolits, darn, That would add an extra few steps and I have to buy the push sizer. I don't understand why they would make a 6-cavity TL of a SWC that seems to have feeding problems and not make a 6-cavity TL of the TC that everyone loves. Aggravating.

OK, no offense directed here, because I see this from a lot of folks new to casting. . .

I simply do not understand why someone would take the time, effort and money to get set up in casting, then try to skip as many steps as possible--and then worry/fret/gripe because their cast boolits do not shoot to their expectations.

A push through sizer is about $15. Molds cost more than that. Lead furnaces cost more than that. It's about the cost of a dutch oven for smelting. An ingot mold cost that. A ladle cost that (and more). You have primers, brass, powder that all cost more than that.

To me, wanting to skip sizing a boolit you cast is not much different than wanting to skip the sizing step in reloading. Maybe you can get away with it, maybe you can't, but it's part of the process.

Another thing that gripes me to no end is Lee's marketing BS about how their TL boolits can be loaded and fired "as cast" as though ONLY TL boolits can be loaded and fired as cast.

My suggestion would be to get a micrometer and measure your boolits and see what size they drop from the mold.

But that's another step or two. . .

For the record, you can tumble-lube traditional lube-groove boolits same as microband boolits. No difference in how you do it or the results.

Also for the record, I size every single boolit I cast. It guarantees me that every boolit I cast is concentric and is the same diameter. One more variable in the world of casting and reloading that I can conclusively eliminate so that if/when I have an accuracy or leading issue, I can immediately rule out the size/shape of my boolit as a factor.

:coffee:

[Mattog22]

No offense taken, I understand your frustration when people skip steps and have problems and don't understand why. My particular situation is that I haven't bought a furnace yet, I melt ww and cast out of the same dutch oven. I know this is not preferred but it works for me. I use the cheap Lee 6 cavity .45 mold and TL using the recipe you posted. I have no leading and this method is working great for me. I have a newborn and a 3 year old, plus I work 10 hour days so my time is limited. I don't have a problem spending $15 on a sizing die, it's the time it takes to size each one when I may not have to. Also, the last sizing die I used sized them down too much and caused leading so I may have to do some grinding if I want to use one. If it's what I have to do I will do it. I am not looking for the perfect boolit, I know the way I'm doing it is not the best way and will not get the perfect boolit. I shoot competitively so I need a lot of boolits in the shortest time possible that will function 100% and no leading. I have that right now in .45. I understand .40 is a different animal and I may have to do more to get it right. I am 30 with 2 kids so time and money are two things I try to save if possible. If sizing is what I need to do to get it right then I appreciate your guys help and I will do it. I was not trying to come off as a lazy complainer.

[Recluse]

I am 30 with 2 kids so time and money are two things I try to save if possible. If sizing is what I need to do to get it right then I appreciate your guys help and I will do it. I was not trying to come off as a lazy complainer.

No worries. I hear you. You can either have time or you can have money. Hard to have both AND a wife AND kids AND a hobby. :)

I don't cast or load for the .40, but do hear it's a bit different. However, I guess the main point I was wanting to make is that I have an issue with Lee's marketing insinuation that ONLY tumble-lube boolits with microbands may not need sizing and can be loaded and shot as cast.

That statement applies to ALL boolits. My suggestion would be to cast some, tumble-lube them and then see if they can drop in your barrel/chamber with little to no difficulty. If so, then load and crimp appropriately.

:coffee:

[Mattog22]

I do see how using the traditional style boolits being sized will ensure that they are all round and the same size. I know my .45 are not perfectly round and this would probably be a problem in .40. I think I will take the advice given and get the TC with standard grooves and a push through sizer. I apologize if I came off harsh at all in my last post and I appreciate your guys help. It has been a long day.

Matt

[Recluse]

I do see how using the traditional style boolits being sized will ensure that they are all round and the same size. I know my .45 are not perfectly round and this would probably be a problem in .40. I think I will take the advice given and get the TC with standard grooves and a push through sizer. I apologize if I came off harsh at all in my last post and I appreciate your guys help. It has been a long day.

Matt

Matt, you didn't come across as harsh at all. We're just kind of protective of new casters (and reloaders) here. A common theme you see preached here day in and day out is safety. So whenever we see a step being omitted or something that may cause problems, someone usually tries to address it pretty quickly.

And sometimes words on a screen do not always reflect the true tone or intent of the message. We're a pretty friendly bunch here. "World's Biggest Small Town" is what I like to call the place. :)

:coffee:

[Mattog22]

Glad I didn't come off offensive. I will most likely give the traditional ones a try and see how it goes. Thanks for the help and Im sure Ill be posting questions again soon when things don't turn out as I expected lol! I really enjoy casting my own boolits and it is always a learning experience. There's a real satisfaction being able to use your own cast boolits to shoot matches.

[goste]

I use the 45-45-10. on the Lee 125 rn, with very good results, for 9mm. I didn't really have good luck with the TL in this cal. Also, mine drop at +- .358, so I dont size. They work in 6 diff. 9's I reload for..

The TL 230 however, is one of the most accurate Boolits I've ever fired in a .45

[earplug]

I tumble lube with Rooster Jacket sold by Midway. I use it on my Lee 38 spl 148 grain TL wadcutter bullets and my normal LEE 45 ACP 200 and LEE round nose 228 grainers.
I don't size them. Just tumble, dry and load.
Years ago I read that the less you do to a bullet the better. Resizing can distort a bullet.
Have been experimenting with stacking up about 25 bullets on a piece of angle aluminum rail. Then dripping some Rooster Jacket on the bullets then rolling them back and forth on the rail.
This may reduce the amount of lube on the bullet noses and increase the amount of lube in the groves. Hope to reduce the amount of lube that builds up in my seating die.

[jmsj]

Mattog,
I am in a similar situation as you concerning time, money and kids. I waited a lot longer than you to start a family though. In that time I was able to gather a lot of reloading tools.
But to save time I have now gone to using Recluse's 45/45/10 method for tumble lubing my traditional lube groove .45 ACP boolits and not sizing, boolits drop just about right straight out of the mold. I will probably start using the same on my wife's .38 special boolits(traditional lube grooves) when I need to cast her some more. These are the two boolits we shoot more of than all other boolits combined.
Good luck, jmsj

[zxcvbob]

I tumble lube with Rooster Jacket sold by Midway. I use it on my Lee 38 spl 148 grain TL wadcutter bullets and my normal LEE 45 ACP 200 and LEE round nose 228 grainers.
I don't size them. Just tumble, dry and load.
Years ago I read that the less you do to a bullet the better. Resizing can distort a bullet.
Have been experimenting with stacking up about 25 bullets on a piece of angle aluminum rail. Then dripping some Rooster Jacket on the bullets then rolling them back and forth on the rail.
This may reduce the amount of lube on the bullet noses and increase the amount of lube in the groves. Hope to reduce the amount of lube that builds up in my seating die.
What sort of accuracy are you getting with Rooster Jacket? I have a quart of it, and I like everything about it *except* my bullets were flying all over the place with it. Of course that could have been me. :oops: I was using 125 grain boolits at the time, loaded pretty fast. No leading at all, and the bore looked polished when I was done shooting.

I'm using 148 grain TL boolits now, with a mixture of Minwax and LLA. Accuracy is good, and I'm getting a little leading near the breech but not bad. (next time I need to cook the paste wax down, or add some Carnauba flakes) I should try these same boolits with the Rooster Jacket...

[Mattog22]

Thanks everyone, I had forgotten that Recluse's TL post had talked about using the TL method on traditional groove boolits. Good to hear everyone's experience using it on the traditional groove boolits. I will definitely be giving it a try.

Matt

[bigjake]

It is the only sizing/lubing method sold by Lee and they make and sell many molds that are NOT TL variety. (The Lee sizer is a push through and requires LLA for lube)

Also, many folks will apply LLA to a bullet sized and lubed conventionally ......... that is to say they are double lubing .......... conventional and then over the top with LLA when there are leading issues.

Three 44s

I dont think you need to lube before you size with lee's sizers. I push them through dry, then tumble lube them.
If you were to lube them first, they would goop up the sizers.

[Recluse]

I dont think you need to lube before you size with lee's sizers. I push them through dry, then tumble lube them.
If you were to lube them first, they would goop up the sizers.

Actually, no.

For one, the amount of (tumble) lube applied is quite a bit less than with stick lubes, and it adheres much better to the boolit than (most) stick lubes, so you're not going to lose much lube

Second, you're talking about sizing, in most instances, down maybe one or two thousandths of an inch. Any lube on that minute bit of lead is going to be hard to even notice in a sizer die.

Third, even when I occasionally pain-lube, I still don't get gooped up sizers unless I have (literal) gobs of lube hanging off the boolit.

However, you CAN get leading in your sizing dies if you do not lube your boolits first and are trying to size down in big, huge steps, like maybe a boolit with a lot of bearing surface and that drops at .314 and you're sizing it down in one step to .309 without any lube.

That's going to be harder on your press and your arm, and depending upon your alloy, you can often get leading in your sizing die.

:coffee:

[243winxb]

Tried Xlox on Lyman traditional groove boolit 45 acp 200gr BB swc. as a test. As cast .451" to .452" no sizing needed. 3.8 gr Bullseye. I will continue to use my Lyman 450 & lube/ 50/50 alox/bees wax from > http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/ Better lube & accuracy.

[Doby45]

Let me tell ya this real quick, even if they MADE a TL mold that you wanted in a 40, I would stay as far away form it as possible. Go with standard lube grooves and try the recluse lube. You have had experience with the 45 and it has gone great, but the 40 is another animal all together. The 40 is basically a little magnum cartridge that will destroy TL boolits and weak lube. I am not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE, I am telling you it is very IMPROBABLE that you are going to be pleased with the combo mentioned. Go with standard lube groove and either recluse's lube or a quality solid lube like C-Red. Get going on the right foot with the 40 or it will iterally sour your opinion of shooting cast in your 40. I promise ya.

[bigjake]

Actually, no.

For one, the amount of (tumble) lube applied is quite a bit less than with stick lubes, and it adheres much better to the boolit than (most) stick lubes, so you're not going to lose much lube

Second, you're talking about sizing, in most instances, down maybe one or two thousandths of an inch. Any lube on that minute bit of lead is going to be hard to even notice in a sizer die.

Third, even when I occasionally pain-lube, I still don't get gooped up sizers unless I have (literal) gobs of lube hanging off the boolit.

However, you CAN get leading in your sizing dies if you do not lube your boolits first and are trying to size down in big, huge steps, like maybe a boolit with a lot of bearing surface and that drops at .314 and you're sizing it down in one step to .309 without any lube.

That's going to be harder on your press and your arm, and depending upon your alloy, you can often get leading in your sizing die.

:coffee:
I guess it would be somewhat easier to push them through or if the bench wont allow hard pressing. I have gotton zero leading [smears or flecks] in the dies.
and you only have to tumble lube once.
When you lube first then size, does the lube you are pushing when sizing get mashed in the small grooves? this might be benificial in lubing twice.
I want to get as many opinions as I can on tumble lubing.

[Rangefinder]

To the OP--I use the traditional 175TC Lee mold for my .40. Lightly tumble lube, size, lightly tumble lube again, and load the next day (or use a hair dryer if you're in a hurry). Recluse's 45-45-10 is also a great way to go if you have a little time to read through the thread thoroughly and make up a batch. My .40 love's it.

[Recluse]

I guess it would be somewhat easier to push them through or if the bench wont allow hard pressing. I have gotton zero leading [smears or flecks] in the dies.

If/when you're sizing down only a thousandth or two, it's unlikely that you'll accumulate any leading in your push-through sizer. But again, it's when one tries to size down in big steps, rather than incrementally, that the possibility (and likelihood) of getting some leading in your sizing die will occur.


When you lube first then size, does the lube you are pushing when sizing get mashed in the small grooves? this might be benificial in lubing twice.
I want to get as many opinions as I can on tumble lubing.

With the microband boolits, yes, you can get some of the lube moved/meshed into the grooves. Same with traditional grooved boolits, but because the lube bands are wider and deeper, not as easy to readily see.

I lightly tumble lube, hence the two coats--one before sizing makes sizing much easier on me and the boolits and the equipment, and then one lubing afterward ensures 100% coverage.

The tumble-lube blend I use (45/45/10) dries so fast and completely tack-free that the addition of the second coat is a literal non-event so far as time and effort is concerned.

:coffee:

[HammerMTB]

I dont think you need to lube before you size with lee's sizers. I push them through dry, then tumble lube them.
If you were to lube them first, they would goop up the sizers.

I too size without lube, but I have a few things working in my favor. First, I wanted .401 so I honed out my .400 Lee push thru. When I was done, it had a mirror finish, so it has less metal texture to catch lead.
Second, I size from .404 or .403 to .401, so it is not a lot to squeeze them. I did also take the bevel base off the mold so it is now a PB boolit. The sizing is just enough that if the boolits go nose first they will have a tiny tail below the boolit base after sizing. so I just size them base first, and the base is them perfectly flat after sizing.

The most I have sized down is a .458 boolit to .452 in a single pass. That was done with a Lyman 450, and it is a chore. It requires good lube to get-er-dun without tragedy.