Why I don't use Titegroup in the .500 S&W...

[John Ross]

Shown below is the THIRD ruined 500 I have personally handled. (I took these pictures).

In all three cases, the owner said it was a load of 17 grains of Titegroup (yes, seventeen in all three instances) and a cast bullet in the lower weight range for a .500 (370 grains or less).

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn302/JohnRoss_07/Picture080.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn302/JohnRoss_07/Experience3.jpg

Relevant comment I posted before:

Detonation?

Detonation is what allegedly can happen when too little of certain powders is used. I say allegedly because the powder companies insist that detonation is a myth, they have never been able to make it happen in the lab, and all purported examples of detonation are actually double charges or other human errors such as mistakenly using the wrong powder.

The theory (espoused by those that believe detonation actually happens) is that with too little powder and too much air space in the case, the powder sometimes doesn’t burn progressively, but rather the primer ignites every grain in the entire charge at the same time and it goes boom all at once, like dynamite or some other high explosive.

I have seen one .500 with its cylinder deformed and flattened against the top strap. The shooter was a very experienced reloader with hundreds of thousands of rounds experience. He said his load was a charge of Titegroup that was a few grains below the starting recommendation with a lightweight cast bullet. He believes he got detonation. Hodgdon says that’s impossible, and that he loaded a double charge. Smith & Wesson understandably would not replace the gun under warranty. Which was it, detonation or double charge?

In my opinion, there have been far too many reports of weird things happening when extra-light charges are used (most of them by cowboy action shooters) to dismiss them all as reloading error. Again, there’s a simple way to avoid any possibility of detonation ever happening to you: Stick with loads that fill most or all of the available case capacity. Want a lighter load? Use a slower powder. If the load still kicks too much, the .500 isn’t the gun for you.
__________________

[Bullshop]

That makes it way easier the measure throat angle.

[Hickory]

Shown below is the THIRD ruined 500 I have personally handled.

Huummmm

[MtGun44]

Double charge?

I know, "I could NEVER double charge, because my . . . . . . . . yada, yada, yada"

Once saw a .44 Automag with NO lugs on the bolt. . . . . . guy apparently mistook BE for
2400. OOPS. No injury and parts were still available then, looked like a new bolt
would put him back in business. Only point this out because 22 gr or so of BE is
kinda like maybe 34 gr of TG -- very much too much of a very fast, high energy
powder in a really strong gun.

Bill

[mroliver77]

So John, what do you believe is the cause? I take it that you personally do not believe the detonation(SEE) theory? I myself am still undecided and find it hard to filter through all the BS to get enough info to form an enlightened opinion.
Good to see you here. You don,t show up enough.
Jay

[Swede44mag]

It could be what I call Wonder powder. It was left in the powder measure untill you cant remember what it for sure was. Then loaded with the wrong data for the wrong powder.
I have had some Wonder powder before it hurts to dump out 1/2 or pounds and set a match to it outside just to burn it off.

I hope the person had no serious injuries. The only pistol I ever seen in person that had blew up was a Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44mag. My friend had gotten the re-loads from another friend of his. When he started shooting them one blew out the top of the cylinder and Top of the pistol. He was lucky he didnt get injured just scared and a New Ruger .44mag was toast.

Thanks for the post I will keep the Titegroup in mind.

[targetshootr]

I have never understood why people use such a fast powder in such large cases.

[wellfedirishman]

Shown below is the THIRD ruined 500 I have personally handled. (I took these pictures).

I for sure am not going to let you near any of my 500s :)

Joking aside, that must have been one heck of a detonation to blow the topstrap of an X-frame S&W 500.

Thanks for the warning and for the pictures, I will make sure not to use any Titegroup. I will stick to Trailboss for light loads in this caliber.

[John Ross]

So John, what do you believe is the cause? I take it that you personally do not believe the detonation(SEE) theory? I myself am still undecided and find it hard to filter through all the BS to get enough info to form an enlightened opinion.
Jay

I'm not sure on SEE. I just follow my aforementioned rule on powder speed and use a powder slow enough that you can't physically put enough of it in the case to blow up the gun.

[white eagle]

I like to stick to powders that fill the case
that is scary I hope the shooter is alright

[krit29-2]

would Unique , something like 13-17 grains be better for light loads, when using cast bullets in the 370 range ?

[John Ross]

would Unique , something like 13-17 grains be better for light loads, when using cast bullets in the 370 range ?

IMO, no. Still possible to double charge. Load trail Boss to base of bullet. Better yet, leave the .500 in the safe and shoot a milder gun.

[44man]

That makes it way easier the measure throat angle.
Now you got me there! [smilie=w:Spilled my coffee and had to get a drink. :mrgreen:
My question is always the same, if you buy a .475 or one of the .500's, what the heck is anyone looking for light loads for? It is a hunting gun, not a plinker.
Yeah, yeah, they kick, seems they are made that way.
No one will know what happened to that gun. It really looks like a charge failed to light and the boolit lodged in the bore so the next took it apart.
Could it be detonation? Yes and maybe the primer pushed out the boolit into the cone before the powder went off too. We will never know.
Double charge? Anyone that uses a loading block and inspects every case should never do that but a progressive press or loading one case at a time can get you in trouble.
Using the wrong powder for the application just to reduce recoil can cause trouble too.
I am always baffled by a guy that wants to shoot Unique in a .44 to better then 1200 fps when 296 and H110 are there for 1300 fps or more, yet the thinking is 100 fps or so less is easier to shoot.

[fuji]

Thank you! I was going to load up my first 480 Rugers with Tightgroup since I have some handy. The sites talked about the slower burning powders ie lil gun and am picking some up before the cases arrive.

Wanted to go that way anyhow but now I think I will. The other reason is that they call for 9gr of Tightgroup for that big case. Seems too little>

Joe

[John Ross]

Thank you! I was going to load up my first 480 Rugers with Tightgroup since I have some handy.

Joe

Might want to rethink Titegroup. Burns HOT and has forcing cone issues.

[August]

Seventeen grains of Titegroup, huh?

Seems like the appropriate end to a genetics experiment gone bad.

It occurs to me I could load all the holes in the cylinder with that much titegroup.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Want a lighter load? Use a slower powder. If the load still kicks too much, the .500 isn’t the gun for you.

Want a lighter load? ... the .500 isn’t the gun for you

I couldn't agree more, the right tool for the right job !

[John Ross]

Seventeen grains of Titegroup, huh?

Seems like the appropriate end to a genetics experiment gone bad.

It occurs to me I could load all the holes in the cylinder with that much titegroup.

Hunh? You DO realize what case we're talking about here...?

[MtGun44]

I do like the concept of using a powder that cannot be dbl charged, but
in some calibers it is a bit impractical, not impossible of course. But you can
pretty much bet that one day, you will make a mistake.

I must say that those are impressive pictures.

John, thanks for writing the book - enjoyed it. Long EZ driver, and my Dad has
a UPF-7, altho with the std 220 Continental, so much more of a pussycat.

Bill

[Bullshop]

For a light load but still fill the case why not Trail Boss?

[500bfrman]

Seventeen grains of Titegroup, huh?

Seems like the appropriate end to a genetics experiment gone bad.

It occurs to me I could load all the holes in the cylinder with that much titegroup.

I couldn't load all the holes in the puny 44 cylinder with 17 grains of it.

[geargnasher]

I have never understood why people use such a fast powder in such large cases.

+1.

Gear

[Frank]

geargnasher:
Originally Posted by targetshootr
I have never understood why people use such a fast powder in such large cases.

+1.

Gear
It's listed in the manual. People look in manuals to get loads. The Hodgdon manual lists 17.0 grns as a medium load for Tightgroup.

500 S&W Magnum
370 CPB
Tightgroup 16.0 1326 40,600 PSI 18.5 1431 49,600 PSI

[mooman76]

I'm with 44man here. Someone wants to make a plinker out of a heavy gun or a magnum. Then on the other end you always have someone trying to push their gun beyond it's limits and make a magnum out of a nonmagnum. They should get together and swap guns.

[warf73]

My question is always the same, if you buy a .475 or one of the .500's, what the heck is anyone looking for light loads for? It is a hunting gun, not a plinker.


Just because it's a .475" or larger doesn't mean you have to shoot full snort ammo everytime you shoot.

Just my .02

[44man]

Just because it's a .475" or larger doesn't mean you have to shoot full snort ammo everytime you shoot.

Just my .02
We do because it is the best way to be comfortable with the recoil and learn to control it. When season opens, we are ready.
Then I hate to waste the huge amounts of lead so it is easier to grab the .44 with much lighter boolits for play.
Also, the loads we use are the most accurate and since we do a lot of long range shooting, light loads are wasted since they can't hit the small targets we use. Easy to blast away 20 rounds and miss while one load that is right can take out the target.
Too much to give up trying for a large pop gun! :Fire:
I have tried a 400 gr boolit with 15 gr of HS-6 in the .475, it is accurate but has too much drop and the difference in recoil is not enough to write home about. Almost all of our shooting is 100 to 200 yards. When we get to the club, we shoot to 500 meters.
Anyway, the .500 S&W has a very large case so powder choice is very critical. Anyone buying such a large gun is better served using it as intended, if there is fear, it should not have been bought.
I know, I know, but you can't change me! :mrgreen:

[Whitworth]

We do because it is the best way to be comfortable with the recoil and learn to control it. When season opens, we are ready.
Then I hate to waste the huge amounts of lead so it is easier to grab the .44 with much lighter boolits for play.
Also, the loads we use are the most accurate and since we do a lot of long range shooting, light loads are wasted since they can't hit the small targets we use. Easy to blast away 20 rounds and miss while one load that is right can take out the target.
Too much to give up trying for a large pop gun! :Fire:
I have tried a 400 gr boolit with 15 gr of HS-6 in the .475, it is accurate but has too much drop and the difference in recoil is not enough to write home about. Almost all of our shooting is 100 to 200 yards. When we get to the club, we shoot to 500 meters.
Anyway, the .500 S&W has a very large case so powder choice is very critical. Anyone buying such a large gun is better served using it as intended, if there is fear, it should not have been bought.
I know, I know, but you can't change me! :mrgreen:

I have to agree. I don't use plinking loads, I plink with my hunting loads. No better way to completely familiarize yourself with the load you will be hunting with. If all one does is punch paper, they would be better served with something smaller and less abusive -- IMHO.

[August]

Hunh? You DO realize what case we're talking about here...?

Yup, I do. And, I apologize for the slight exaggeration. Maybe five grains would be a good starting load in that size case.

The virtues of Titegroup include the fact that it is not position sensitive. I have found it to work great in cases that are large volume.

However, is is a powder meant for light to medium light loads and has no value in trying to achieve maximum velocity.

But, I'll wager you could get five bullets out the end of the barrel with 17 grains of powder, total.

[44man]

Yup, I do. And, I apologize for the slight exaggeration. Maybe five grains would be a good starting load in that size case.

The virtues of Titegroup include the fact that it is not position sensitive. I have found it to work great in cases that are large volume.

However, is is a powder meant for light to medium light loads and has no value in trying to achieve maximum velocity.

But, I'll wager you could get five bullets out the end of the barrel with 17 grains of powder, total.
Is there a load for 4759 in the S&W? It is bulky and fills the case good but might still need some Dacron.
I will not own the .500 S&W because it does nothing better then the .500 JRH or the .475 Linebaugh for that matter.
If you buy a .500 S&W and want to turn it into an 800 fps gun---what is wrong with you? That is almost as funny as a guy that want's one with a 2" barrel.
Buy a .300 Weatherby with a 26" barrel and it is still not long enough, yet some want 20". Why not use a 30-06?
I see with the revolver, it is because the right loads kick so much you need to shoot no recoil stuff. Then when you hunt, you flinch like crazy. Maybe a .38 is too much so you need to load the .357 down. Why would you own the .357?
I seen many .44 Rugers for sale after 6 shots turned the guy to a *****.
Saying the gun does not need to be shot full power all the time---WHY NOT? Did you buy a .500 to feel like a .38? Is it a macho thing where friends are told you have the most powerful revolver but you can watch boolits exit the barrel because you can't take the gun?
Sorry if I hurt feelings but if I want to shoot close I will take my .22's or light loads in the .44. My big bores are for hunting and all practice is with hunting loads. Even the .44 might only get 50 tin can loads a year, the rest are for hunting.

[Piedmont]

I would wager that the majority of .500 S&W owners don't hunt with them. Personally they don't interest me at all. But imagine the fellow who buys one, and finds out it is way too much gun for him. Lets say he has bought the cases and loading gear and is out a lot of money. He can sell it and probably not get his money out, or use it for a paper weight, or he can down load it.

I down load .45-70s for rifles. How is this any different?

[targetshootr]

It seems like the number of possible problems with fast powders rises as the case volume increases. On the other hand, Elmer Keith used fast shotgun powder to max out his 44 spl when times were tough. Even he blew up at least one gun I know about. Point being, load ammo carefully.

[nes4ever69]

when i was going to load up my 500 magnum with the lead bullets i called hodgdon and ask if titegroup could be used for it and the said no, they didnt have any safe load for it. in my lyman manual they dont list titegroup as a powder for the lyman mold i have.

titegroup works great for jacketed bullets i use in the 500. h110 i have data for and use it for my lead bullets.

for fun extreamly lights loads i use trail boss.

i did play around with titegroup for double/triple loads, NOTE: NOT TO SHOOT JUST TO SEE WHAT IS POSSIBLE AND THE ROUND WAS NEVER LOADED JUST TESTING THINGS, and at the charge i was doing for my 500 with 275 gr xtb i belive you could triple carge the case and i think it would have been a compressed load.

[Frank]

.475 Linebaugh, 400 grn, 1300 fps

.12 GA Roundball, 550 grns, 1465 fps

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=3426

[Dill45]

Yikes, I load tight group under a 400gr bullet. Think I may stray away from that...

Edit: And there's a simple reason people load tightgroup in the 500...because they can. Tinkering with loads is half the fun when it comes to reloading IMO.

[Frank]

Dill45:
Think I may stray away from that...

It shouldn't be so bad. I use a recoil reducing stock. Sorry to hijack. I just couldn't resist since there is a lot of talk about meplats. [smilie=l:

[warf73]

We do because it is the best way to be comfortable with the recoil and learn to control it. When season opens, we are ready.
Then I hate to waste the huge amounts of lead so it is easier to grab the .44 with much lighter boolits for play.
Also, the loads we use are the most accurate and since we do a lot of long range shooting, light loads are wasted since they can't hit the small targets we use. Easy to blast away 20 rounds and miss while one load that is right can take out the target.

I agree with this 100% just really didn't look at it this way, as all my handguns have several loads for them. Still working on my load for the 480 atm getting closer btw :)

[thegreatdane]

Page 53 of the Lee book states: "As a rule, a full case of the fastest powder that will yield maximum safe pressure gives the highest velocity. Simply stated, this means if you can find a powder that will fill the case, and pressures are near maximum safe pressure, you will get the highest possible velocity, as opposed to a powder that gives the same pressure and the charge partially fills the case."

This leads me to believe the volume of air (which is compressible) has an effect on pressure, as in the dreaded "pressure spike." Of course Richard Lee mentions velocity in this section of his book. I think we should key into the safe pressures part. It seems a more dense charge (based on volume, not weight), would burn more consistently in relation to pressure. My amateur-ish theory is that the compressible volume of air can introduce a greater margin of error in relation to pressure, which could put actual pressures over the safety barrier.

My theory is derived from the compression of air and the resulting elasticity of pressures. You can chemically control powder burn rates, but not necessarily the compression-rate of gas. This could lead to the "spike."

Thoughts? Opinions?

[44man]

I still remember the day I got my 45-70 BFR revolver. Talking to MR, I was told to hold under 30,000 psi even though the same gun with a .450 Marlin cylinder was rated much higher. Is it the brass?
I spent a long, long time going through books and all information I could find. This was not going to be easy!
I tried all the favorite loads of 2400 and Unique, etc and they just sucked. I moved to slower powders like 4198 and had pressure excursions, stuck brass and a jump from 1600 fps to 1800 fps. 3031 was accurate but dead slow with unburned powder. Varget was actually very decent even though much slower.
Using care I tried everything and then tried 4759 with Dacron filler. It fills the case more but is still more accurate with Dacron. The large case and relatively short 10" barrel for the caliber works best with 4759 and gives good velocity with max accuracy.
Then I tried a heavier boolit so I reduced the charge a little and stuck a boolit in the bore with no powder burn at all. Kind of funny such a fast powder can cause a problem! [smilie=l:I had to increase the charge.
It was not an easy task to find what what works for a large case in a short barrel and I had a lot of worries. Safety first was always on my mind.
Buying a gun with a large case and dumping a fast powder in it to reduce recoil is insane and the picture of the gun should wake you up. I do not take this stuff lightly! The worries I had with the 45-70 is not taken lightly. I wish a slower powder then 4759 could be used but it is not to be with the short barrel. At least the powder is bulky.
Slower powders actually have less bulk and fill the case less but will not burn completely.
I wish some of you would stop dancing with danger. :shock:

[35remington]

Two rules seem to apply:

The most likely explanation is likely the cause of the problem, and;

If there's room for a double charge, a double charge will get loaded.

We have a fascination for positing the unproven and unlikely as THE cause of events that are not reproducible. This is in our national persona, so it's not surprising that "detonation theory" is the excuse of those who believe it's impossible for a human being to make a mistake with double charging a very compact ball powder. Especially the guy who made the mistake. I am not one to believe in the infallibility of a typical human being.

Very experienced handloader are not immune to mistakes, just as very experienced car drivers are still involved in accidents.

Such is our love of conspiracy theories, snipers on the grassy knoll, UFO's, and unproven detonations of fast powder.

Given how the primer throws the powder around the interior of the case, it seems unlikely that it is fine most of the time, yet somehow ignites all the powder all at once once in a great while which leads to an explosion.

How would this supposedly be accomplished? Tipping the powder against the primer by pointing the pistol up before shooting? I am not one of the "flash over" adherents, by the way, who claim that the ignition of only part of the powder charge is the cause of blowups using fast powder. Somehow the primer's blast is supposed to miss some of the powder and cause a problem. Not sure anyone's carried the argument any further than that.

One party claims partial ignition blows things up, and here we have the position that complete ignition simultaneously may blow things up.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to talk to the manufacturer of powder of this type, especially the engineers and chemists, and get their take on the problem. Hodgdon has given you their official position through their moutpiece ; can anyone here say that they have reproduced fast powder detonation experimentally?

We have individuals elsewhere on this forum that specifically claim that they know more about powder, its chemistry and its likeliness to "detonate" than those who manufacture the powder itself! Perhaps the industry is missing a bet by not hiring these individuals to solve all their problems for them.

Shortly they'll be climbing out of the woodwork. All hail to the amateur ballistician as the ultimate solution to the problem.

Beware of people who claim to know for sure what the cause is, and that "detonation" of fast powders is an event they can reproduce. If this could be reproduced at will, the 100 year old handloading mystery will be solved, and this person's proof would be worth a great deal of money. Anyone wonder why fast powder blowups have been discussed but not solved for that period of time?

We're all theorizing, including those that claim to be in the know. Don't hold your breath that the industry will wake up and hire these founts of knowledge any time soon.

[frank505]

As a teenage boy I witnessed many blow ups on 38 wadcutter guns at Bullseye matches. The NRA Dope Bag even did an article on 38 special and 2.7 grains of Bullseye, increasing the charge one tenth of a grain at a time until they hit 5.4. All loaded with a 148 grain wadcutter seated flush, the measured pressure at 5.4 was just over 40K if I remember correctly. 13 grains of HS6 blew up a fine 45 colt, in new cases. Looking very carefully we could see the powder line mark on the inside of the case that blew. It was the same as all the rest loaded with 13 grains................. I will not load any revolver case unless it is a 100% or very close to it. Trail Boss and Blackhorn 209 are my light load powders for the very few rounds I shoot that are not full power in 45,475 and 500 Linebaugh.

[ole 5 hole group]

I will not own the .500 S&W because it does nothing better then the .500 JRH or the .475 Linebaugh for that matter.

That's a damn poor excuse for not owning the 500 S&W. If you don't like the 500JRH full-on loads, I've got a couple 500S&W loads you'll like even less!!!

[41wyom]

Had a 1903 Springfield with a similar "mishap". It was August 1986 and my memory is a little vague but I think it was 22.0 of SR 4759. Whatever powder it was, when I got home, I checked my notes and it was not possible to double charge it, would overflow the case. The gun still works but has a new bolt assy. and floorplate.

A club member who was a small arms ammunition manufacturing engineer for Honeywell told me the military tried (unsucessfully) to make this incident happen. The "accepted" answer was that powder nearest the primer went first and for some unknown reason the majority of the powder acted like a large block or wad at the base of the bullet and prevented the bullet from leaving the case, so the accumulated pressure went backwards raising heck with the bolt face. The bullet did eventually depart out the muzzle (no hole in the target). He thought the military called these experiences detonations but che ouldn't recall for sure.

FWIW

[Whitworth]

That's a damn poor excuse for not owning the 500 S&W. If you don't like the 500JRH full-on loads, I've got a couple 500S&W loads you'll like even less!!!


And my .50 Alaskan will make a .500 Smith go run and hide......:bigsmyl2:

See the pipsqueak on the left? That's the Smith.....

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/500Smithand50AK.jpg

Oh, and for the record, I am buying a .500 Smith -- I have nothing against them! The .50 AK is simply a bit more -- okay, more than a bit more, almost uncontrollable, and not that fun to shoot!:shock:

[ole 5 hole group]

Well, I don’t know if the Smith would be smart enough to get out of the way, but I sure would!!

I’ve never fired a 50 Alaskan with full-on loads but I think I can imagine the “pleasure”, as the 500 Linebaugh Max with one particular load gave me all I wanted & then some.

Even 40 years ago, I don’t think it would have felt any different, so I’ll let you young studs play with the 50 Alaskan all you want but after playing with the 500 Max, I’m heading for the showers, as my feeble mind is willing but my body is weak.

Load that puppy to about 35K psi with the 585 grain bullet and let ole Jim (44 man) have a go at it – I think it just might change his attitude a little toward recoil – providing he ever recovers from the experience.:grin:

[44man]

That's a damn poor excuse for not owning the 500 S&W. If you don't like the 500JRH full-on loads, I've got a couple 500S&W loads you'll like even less!!!
Your loads don't bother me, I am the least bothered by recoil. The .500 JRH is shot full bore as is the .500 Linebaugh as well as the .475---well only at the accuracy point which might be just below or even above max.
But look at the price of a S&W! Look at brass prices! What more does it do?
Now the S&W has a comp that puts recoil just above a .44 and recoil never goes past 90* with any load. The BFR is in a LARGE gun with less recoil yet.
Now look at the .50 Alaskan! I have not shot it because it has a super slippery Bisley grip. I value my large knuckle behind the trigger guard and my head from the grip slip. When Whitworth gets rubber grips on it I will shoot it.
Will your S&W with a comp do this? You do not know how tough Whitworth and I are and I am 73.
Now let me tell you that the .500 JRH feels better then the .475, more push, less whip.

[500bfrman]

Look at brass prices!

huh?? brass prices versus what? 475?

[stubshaft]

IIRC - The last time I ordered 50 AK brass it was about $1.05@.

[Whitworth]

After shooting the .500 JRH with my hunting loads, I don't notice the .475 much (how did I get to this point?? :veryconfu). It's less of everything. The Alaskan is well, too much of everything and it's not loaded to high pressure. It just burns a whole lot of powder.......and a bit too much!

[44man]

After shooting the .500 JRH with my hunting loads, I don't notice the .475 much (how did I get to this point?? :veryconfu). It's less of everything. The Alaskan is well, too much of everything and it's not loaded to high pressure. It just burns a whole lot of powder.......and a bit too much!
And the worst thing that nobody thinks of. [smilie=1:
Once boolit weight gets too heavy, there is no way to keep them in the brass under recoil.

[targetshootr]

Bisleys are too slippery? Nah, that's the only way most custom guys will make a big bore. It probably takes some getting used to. When they first came out Ross Seyfried wrote an article slobbering over em.

[Whitworth]

He doesn't like the micarta grips that are on it. Funny, but they don't slip in my hands. The knuckle hitting the trigger guard I can understand, but the grips aren't slippery.

[thegreatdane]

Two rules seem to apply:

The most likely explanation is likely the cause of the problem, and;

If there's room for a double charge, a double charge will get loaded.

We have a fascination for positing the unproven and unlikely as THE cause of events that are not reproducible. This is in our national persona, so it's not surprising that "detonation theory" is the excuse of those who believe it's impossible for a human being to make a mistake with double charging a very compact ball powder. Especially the guy who made the mistake. I am not one to believe in the infallibility of a typical human being.

Very experienced handloader are not immune to mistakes, just as very experienced car drivers are still involved in accidents.

Such is our love of conspiracy theories, snipers on the grassy knoll, UFO's, and unproven detonations of fast powder.

Given how the primer throws the powder around the interior of the case, it seems unlikely that it is fine most of the time, yet somehow ignites all the powder all at once once in a great while which leads to an explosion.

How would this supposedly be accomplished? Tipping the powder against the primer by pointing the pistol up before shooting? I am not one of the "flash over" adherents, by the way, who claim that the ignition of only part of the powder charge is the cause of blowups using fast powder. Somehow the primer's blast is supposed to miss some of the powder and cause a problem. Not sure anyone's carried the argument any further than that.

One party claims partial ignition blows things up, and here we have the position that complete ignition simultaneously may blow things up.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to talk to the manufacturer of powder of this type, especially the engineers and chemists, and get their take on the problem. Hodgdon has given you their official position through their moutpiece ; can anyone here say that they have reproduced fast powder detonation experimentally?

We have individuals elsewhere on this forum that specifically claim that they know more about powder, its chemistry and its likeliness to "detonate" than those who manufacture the powder itself! Perhaps the industry is missing a bet by not hiring these individuals to solve all their problems for them.

Shortly they'll be climbing out of the woodwork. All hail to the amateur ballistician as the ultimate solution to the problem.

Beware of people who claim to know for sure what the cause is, and that "detonation" of fast powders is an event they can reproduce. If this could be reproduced at will, the 100 year old handloading mystery will be solved, and this person's proof would be worth a great deal of money. Anyone wonder why fast powder blowups have been discussed but not solved for that period of time?

We're all theorizing, including those that claim to be in the know. Don't hold your breath that the industry will wake up and hire these founts of knowledge any time soon.

Your explanation is probably much more accurate than mine. I saw an opportunity to theorize - so I did. My favorite part of your reponse was, "If there's room for a double charge, a double charge will get loaded."

[warf73]

And my .50 Alaskan will make a .500 Smith go run and hide......:bigsmyl2:

See the pipsqueak on the left? That's the Smith.....

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/500Smithand50AK.jpg

Oh, and for the record, I am buying a .500 Smith -- I have nothing against them! The .50 AK is simply a bit more -- okay, more than a bit more, almost uncontrollable, and not that fun to shoot!:shock:


Would love to see that 500AK in 2+1 bolt rifle with a 16" barrel and lumber for a stock.
Sorry for the hijack.

Warf

[44man]

He doesn't like the micarta grips that are on it. Funny, but they don't slip in my hands. The knuckle hitting the trigger guard I can understand, but the grips aren't slippery.
You should see the gloves Whitworth puts on! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
I will tell you what they remind me of. Long ago when I shot target archery, some grips were not right so I would rub cocoa butter on my hand so the grip could not be held wrong. It was either right or you lost it. [smilie=s:
That is how smooth they are. Looks like the were buffed like jewelry.
I might be nuts but I am not crazy! [smilie=p:

[Whitworth]

Those grips are not slippery. The gloves limit the damage done by recoil of my revolvers. Those grips aren't nearly as smooth as the factory Micarta on my BFR. You need to wrap your deformed middle finger to protect it from the trigger guard. Keep using the grips as an excuse.......:bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Those grips are not slippery. The gloves limit the damage done by recoil of my revolvers. Those grips aren't nearly as smooth as the factory Micarta on my BFR. You need to wrap your deformed middle finger to protect it from the trigger guard. Keep using the grips as an excuse.......:bigsmyl2:
You know I hate the Bisley on any gun. Made the mistake once with a Hunter and sold it fast. Sensitive to hold, harder to shoot groups, smashes my knuckle, it is a silly excuse for a handle on a gun! :groner:
What does it do? It stops "ROLL" in the hand that so many think is right. It is wrong, the grip should NEVER "ROLL" in the hand even with a hog leg and that is why Bisley developed it. Guys were thinking "roll" put the hammer closer for cocking the gun but they lost accuracy. Bisley stopped the "roll." He created a sensitive grip that MUST be held EXACTLY the same shot to shot.
The grips on that .50 A feels like a greased beer bottle! Even leather does not work, need RUBBER.
HEY, WHOSE HEAD WAS THAT?

[Whitworth]

Mine, you old codger, but it had nothing to do with slick grips and everything to do with relaxing muscle tension. Let your guard down for one moment and it will make contact -- just ask those who have actually shot it and speak from experience. The gun doesn't move around in your hand with those grips in the least. The slick Micarta's on the BFR on the otherhand, move around quite a bit, but the grip frame shape doesn't help. I know you don't like the Bisley because of your knuckle and the contact it makes on the trigger guard, but I can tell you this revolver would be unshootable with a plough-handle grip frame. Again, wrap your knuckle, and man-up.:mrgreen:

[Frosty Boolit]

Mine is bigger than yours is!

[Whitworth]

Mine is bigger than yours is!

No it's not! :kidding:

[Paulinski]

I just got a second 500 in addition to my 6.5"

8-3/8 with hiviz front sight.

My question is can I shoot it without the removable comp without doing any damage to the gun?

[44man]

I just got a second 500 in addition to my 6.5"

8-3/8 with hiviz front sight.

My question is can I shoot it without the removable comp without doing any damage to the gun?
Does the comp hold the barrel in? Seems as if S&W went to a Dan Wesson style barrel in a shroud so you need a barrel nut.

[John Ross]

My question is can I shoot it without the removable comp without doing any damage to the gun?

2nd gen comp (with the sort of acme thread), yes.

[dmize]

I blew up a 41 mag blackhawk with Titegroup.
EXCEPT im willing to admit im pretty damn sure it was a double charge.

[NSP64]

I was invited to AaronJ's family farm yesturday for some shooting/plinking. He has a 500 S&W. He had some full house and some Trailboss loads. The full house were controlable and the lite loads were a hoot. The comp on his (1st gen?) worked really well. He had some pointy boolits cast from straight lino that made some dents in the piece of steel we were shooting at and big holes in the mud bank.

[John Ross]

Is there a load for 4759 in the S&W? It is bulky and fills the case good but might still need some Dacron.

I will not own the .500 S&W because it does nothing better then the .500 JRH or the .475 Linebaugh for that matter.

If you buy a .500 S&W and want to turn it into an 800 fps gun---what is wrong with you? That is almost as funny as a guy that want's one with a 2" barrel.

In order:

1. 4759 is a GREAT powder in the .500. Load it to 100% density with ANY lead alloy bullet and you get a powerful load that is nowhere near max pressure, like a 550 long nose design at 1300 FPS where a max load of H110 with the same slug will go 1600+. No Dacron needed.

2. Only if you define "more velocity with a heavier bullet" as "nothing better."

3. A 725 grain bullet at 850 FPS is no slouch of a load. Kind of like three .45 ACPs at once...

[orthros]

Funny thing, the same happened to me. Never seen a cylinder blown in two before. Was shooting 15grs Tite Group behind a 440 Cast GC and winchester Rifle primer when it blew. The sound was just a little louder than the 4 preceeding it. I've shot around 150 rounds of this recipe and never had a problem until then.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~orthros/snow%20and%20gun%20club%20035.JPG

[Phat Man Mike]

ouch! did you get hit by anything? looks like I see small parts of brass .

[armprairie]

I just experienced my first episode of this a few weeks ago at our Fun Shoot here at Windsor Gun Club. One of our experienced loaders was loading 14.5 grains Titegroup with 440 grain boolit. Very mild. Suddenly a chunk of metal landed in front of me; it was half the cylinder and a bystander had a baseball sized rip in his lower abdomen. Top strap looked like yours. Dug the rear sight out of the tin roof overhead. Didn't notice any unusual noise.
The other one I know of local here is a 460 with a tuliped barrel. Folks around here are getting spooked on the X frames. Our club has been operating since 1953. We have over 300 members. These are the only guns I know of blowing up here. Both guns were marked Performance Center and some folks think that's got something to do with it.
I've got pictures if you need. This is my first post, so sorry if it doesn't come across right.

[Whitworth]

Would love to see the photos......

Welcome to the forum!

[exile]

So, my disclaimer is that I have never shot or loaded for a .500 S & W (the largest caliber I own is a .44 magnum, and the only cartridge I have ever used Titegroup for is the .32 ACP, for which it worked well).

Having said that, based on "orthros" post,

Is the problem that Titegroup is particularly sensitive to its position in the case, thereby causing these problems, where previous rounds functioned well?

I can tell you that I will not being using Titegroup in the .44 magnum any time soon.

exile

[35remington]

Titegroup is quite position insensitive, and is promoted as such. It's factual.

The problem with it is it does not occupy much volume for its weight, making a double charge very possible, and also very likely to be missed with a cursory visual inspection.

If there is room to put a double charge in a case, a double charge will get loaded on occasion. And then events like you see here occur.

[Porterhouse]

No matter what you think, it is just stupid to use Titegroup for .500s after seeing these photos & reports.

[olafhardt]

Why dont I hear of people having these problems with titegroup in 38 special etc. I bought a 500s&w NEF riflle because I wanted to lob big boolits subsonically. Brian Pierce published some tg loads based, he said, on tg being position insensitive. It has worked ok so has Unique.

[Porterhouse]

olafhardt and others,
Have you compare a case of .500 with a case of 38spl? They are totally different kind of species! Titegroup with 38spl or even with 44mag may be perfectly safe but we are talking here about one of the biggests if not, the biggest case for short barreled handgun out there. You need to approach them like three legged coyote (like Elmer Keith would say if he is still alive) IMHO.

[olafhardt]

Porterhouse(great name) I used the 38 for comparison because it has a lot of unused space like the big ole 500 percentage wise. The 38 is also loaded in vast quantities. I think it is loaded and shot with fast burning powders much more than the 500 usually in weaker guns. So why would tg be blowing up 500s and not 38s?

[35remington]

Porterhouse, it is by no means settled what the cause of the blowups were. We have anecdotal evidence.

Hardly conclusive. Of course, everyone will swear up and down they couldn't possibly have made a mistake.

Car accidents can't happen either, by the same reasoning.

That's what I think, and I'm hardly stupid. You may do as you wish, and I will do as I wish. I don't believe in UFO's and I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist either, BTW.

Suddenly, everyone here is more of an expert than the chemists who design and understand the powder and its progression from solid to gaseous state.

We're not exactly drowning in bona fides here as a collection of sources that have great experience in the design and manufacture of gunpowder, are we? Perhaps you'd care to compare the qualifications of those posting in this thread against those of the chemists working for the powder manufacturers and tell me how it looks, credibility wise.

By the same measure, it's "just stupid" to use Bullseye in 2.7 grain charges under a 148 grain wadcutter (do a search if you don't recall the similar controversy starting many many years ago) for the same supposed reasons as here, yet the very vast majority pull it off successfully. For about seventy or eighty years now. If there was a problem, truly a problem, with this it would have come to light by now. So yes, olafhardt's comments are relevant. Small powder charge, largish case. Not different than this situation at all.

This seems all too familiar. Occam's razor, again.

[Porterhouse]

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "stupid". To whom I may have offended, my apology. A friend of mine, who's also a 500 shooter loves Titegroup and I tried talk him out of it many times. He doesn't care what I say but that's fine. He is a grownup and has a right to choose whatever the powder or other components for his own shooting activity. The original poster of this thread simply stated he doesn't use Titegroup for his 500s and I tend to agree with him with no scientific reason. I'm just a skeptical individual.
Why we don't hear about any accident with 38spl and such? Again, I have no clear answer to that but it's probably perfectly safe for those smaller cases. I do not think Titegroup was specifically designed for 500S&W, however. More I hear about these "designed for", " supposed to be" or "promoted as", I get suspicious especially if those are coming out of Hodgedon. While I like, rely on their powders, I don't trust the information provided by Hodgedon at all. Have you guys studied their annual loading manual? How come they get exact same velocity and pressure from H110 and W296? I know they are suppose to be the same (although some say they are different) but did they actually test two different lot of powders, for so many different calibers? I think not. Then, they publish those old data year after year. I finally realized buying those promotional material is a waste of money. If people happen to come to this thread and still want to use Titegroup for their own 500, that's fine with me. I just happen to prefer other powders and choose not worry about double charge or some mysterious detonation. I have too many other things to worry about, like if the steak for two I ordered will be cooked perfectly for me, but not too rare for my wife.

[35remington]

We have heard of accidents involving Bullseye powder and 38's all the time for the same reasons......small volume powder charge in a largish volume case. In other words, 2.7 grains Bullseye relates to the .38 case as a larger amount of Titegroup relates to the 500 case. "Smaller case" isn't relevant as much as ratio of powder fill is, and room for more than one charge being present. So don't get fixated on the fact that the 38 case is smaller; look instead at the fact that there is ample room for more powder; as a percentage of case fill they are essentially equivalent.

Do a search on .38, Bullseye and blowups. Look up past loading practice of as little as 1.5 grains to 2.0 grains Bullseye with light 75 to 100 grain wadcutters in 38 cases (Lyman designs as well as others) for indoor target loads. Lyman 43rd, for instance. That dates to the early sixties.

The cause of the blowups are debated, but small volume charges in cases that have a lot of volume to spare is the commonality. If there is room for more than the intended amount of powder, someone will put it there by accident on occasion. Occam's Razor once again.

296 and H110 are the same. Data should be the same and is entirely trustworthy. No one now thinks they are different, and it is entirely correct for them to publish identical data.

Since Hodgdon gave you a straight steer on that info, therefore the other data should now be trustworthy too, I should think. Your faith in them should be restored. There is no conflict.

[Shawn2571]

Ain't that the donut powder? Don't think I'd like that! Would like a powder that could keep my velocity around 1200 fps with 440 grain cast bullets in my 22" Handi rifle though. I guess titegroup is out.

[Jtarm]

Porterhouse, it is by no means settled what the cause of the blowups were. We have anecdotal evidence.

Hardly conclusive. Of course, everyone will swear up and down they couldn't possibly have made a mistake.

Car accidents can't happen either, by the same reasoning.

That's what I think, and I'm hardly stupid. You may do as you wish, and I will do as I wish. I don't believe in UFO's and I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist either, BTW.

Suddenly, everyone here is more of an expert than the chemists who design and understand the powder and its progression from solid to gaseous state.

We're not exactly drowning in bona fides here as a collection of sources that have great experience in the design and manufacture of gunpowder, are we? Perhaps you'd care to compare the qualifications of those posting in this thread against those of the chemists working for the powder manufacturers and tell me how it looks, credibility wise.

By the same measure, it's "just stupid" to use Bullseye in 2.7 grain charges under a 148 grain wadcutter (do a search if you don't recall the similar controversy starting many many years ago) for the same supposed reasons as here, yet the very vast majority pull it off successfully. For about seventy or eighty years now. If there was a problem, truly a problem, with this it would have come to light by now. So yes, olafhardt's comments are relevant. Small powder charge, largish case. Not different than this situation at all.

This seems all too familiar. Occam's razor, again.

In addition to those chemists who designed the powders, doesn’t U.S. DOT still classify smokeless powder as a flammable solid?

[RJM52]

Titegroup...after doing a lot of reading would never buy any. Bullseye only for small capasity pistol rounds like .32 or .380.

As to target grade loads in a 500...18.0 grains of Unique runs 1050 in a 4" S&W and if double charged fills the case just short of spilling... 20 grains runs 1250. All I run is 350 grain bullets, cast, Berry's plated and Sierrs, Hornady and Speer jacketed.

Bob