SMLE bore frustration

[wallenba]

Unable to measure my five groove SMLE to get accurate results, I pushed a .315 ALOX lubed boolit through the bore. Strong rifling engraving, but the groove was not even touched, the ALOX was still there. What bothers me even more is the fact that the boolit felt loose through the middle of the barrel. I plan to open up another LEE sizer to .317 and try the same thing again. If that does not work, what then? New barrel? Is it worth it? Are they even available?

[docone31]

I believe you are missing the point.
First there are barrels available. I got one from Numerich, It went right in, and was good at .314.
I paper patch my Smelly, if it is a #4, you can expect .316. I get remarkable results with paper patching, start load data, and 180gn castings. They are frustrating untill you get dialed in. Then they are the sweetest rifles around.
Don't forget also, the powder on ignition, slams the base tightening it up a bit more.
Lots on that rifle in the Smokless Paper Patching section.

[wallenba]

Numrich is sold out. Most that they did have were drilling rifle barrels anyway (dubious condition). A day long search on the net was fruitless. My point is that even if I can get a tight fit at the chamber end, gas will blow past in the middle of the barrel anyway. Patching won't solve that. It's a no. 1 MK III, and it will turn out to be a safe queen until and if a good barrel turns up.

[PAT303]

Have you actually fired it?. Pat

[wallenba]

Have you actually fired it?. Pat


As soon as I can get a sizer that will come close to the groove size I suspect it is (.316) I will. I don't think there would be much to learn right now by shooting a known undersize boolit. I have a Lee
c312-185-r1 mold that I opened up for my
M38 (shoots .315's) that drops out of round at .318-.319. Chamber neck size then begins to be the issue, but I think at .317 it will still be safe. I'm lapping a Lee .314 sizer, but have not got it there yet, trying to go slow so as not to overshoot.

[docone31]

One way to find out, and I am one of those who have issues with measuring five land bores, is to load .312 jacketeds.
That is how I got my sizeing for my Smelly. .311 was just too loose, made keyholes. The .312 went straight in. From there, I paper patched to .314. Now, this is for my rifle, yours may be different, but it might help.

[wallenba]

Doc, I probably will resort to paper patching, but I'd like to do it the with sizing if I can. I tried paper patching for my Mosin Nagant M38 but just could not get the knack of it. I'd roll about a dozen before getting one good one. I read Paul Matthews book, but he beats around the bush so much relating experiences before getting to the details that I just put it on the shelf. Some things were never very clear either. Still, the fat area in the middle of the barrel baffles me. What would make it tighter at the muzzle and chamber end? Been working the sizer die again with 220 and it is currently at .3165...getting close.
P.S. the jacketeds sounds like a good idea to start with, but I think my bore is a lot bigger than most.

[docone31]

Cast the Lee 180gn 303-B mold. Size it to .308 Cut an one inch strip of paper 1 3/8" with 45* opposite on each end. Soak in water, then wet, wrap it in a cigarette roller. It will squeegee the water out of the patch. Twist the tail, let dry.
When dry, snip the tail leaving a tad. Unsized, you will get .317-.318. That is what you want for that bore. Load dry. No lube! Use neck sizeing dies. When loaded, smear a little auto wax on the patched load. Very little.
Use start load data for that weight casting in jacketed load data.
It won't take long, but you will get the hang of it with the roller. You definately will like the way it fires.

[wallenba]

Doc, what paper are you using? The patching paper I was using is .002 thick. It's Art1sts (that's how its spelled) tracing paper. That mold (the 303-B) is the C312-185-r1 that I enlarged for the Mosin. I guess I could get another, But I'd have to work out the final wrap number. Total thickness two wraps would be .008, so I'd need a .309 boolit or thicker paper. Do-able. Do you use a gas check, or leave it off? I'll check in one of those Smoker outlet stores for price on a roller and give this another try. My hands are just too big for this kind of work, but my eyes are better now since I tried it last. I had cataract surgury this summer and some corrective laser treatments.

[Multigunner]

Unable to measure my five groove SMLE to get accurate results, I pushed a .315 ALOX lubed boolit through the bore. Strong rifling engraving, but the groove was not even touched, the ALOX was still there. What bothers me even more is the fact that the boolit felt loose through the middle of the barrel. I plan to open up another LEE sizer to .317 and try the same thing again. If that does not work, what then? New barrel? Is it worth it? Are they even available?

SMLE barrels aren't easy to come by, and its a **** shoot as to whether a replacement will be better than what you already have.

Early SMLE rifles were throated for the .303 MkVI cartridge with long round nose 215 gr bullet.
In order to acheive the same velocity from the SMLE 25 inch barrel as from the much longer LE barrel they reverse taper lapped the bores. The bores of those barrels increase in diameter starting about ten to fourteen inches up the bore. Some mike at up to .321 at the muzzle.
When they adopted the MkVII ammunition they dropped the reverse taper bore. Barrels throated for the MkVII are marked HV and SC , for High Velocity, Short Cone (cone being the throat).
Early rifles were supposed to have been rebarreled starting in 1917 but many were never modified. These may not shoot as well but are a collectors item.

Apparently a few of the early taper lapped barrels ennded up in storage and occasionally show up on WW2 and post WW2 BSA rifes that were assembled from parts in strategic reserve left over from WW1 production.

If the bore seems looser in the mid section this might be a problem. Some .303 barrels develop significant gas erosion at mid bore due to burning rate and high temperature of cordite.
Mineral jelly and other additives were used to provide a thin layer of baked on carbon to prevent excessive metal fouling due to the high temperature of cordite over heating the bullet jackets, and friction . Before they added mineral jelly to cordite bores became inaccurate within 400 rounds till aggressivly cleaned to remove the cupro nickel.
The carbon deposit thins out till ineffective about ten inches up the bore, temperature of the propellent gases continue to rise untill the cordite strands are completely consumed at around fourteen inches up the bore.
This leaves a section at mid bore where erosion can set in. it also leaves this section more vulnerable to corosive primer salts since theres no protective layer and heat expands any pores or fissures in the bore surface.
Once even minor pitting has set in gas erosion accelerates in that mid bore section.
Since this form of erosion eats away the bottom of the grooves faster than the lands its not easily detected by the naked eye.

Internal bulging due to firing rifle grenades which had a shaft that fit in the bore, or firing when the bore is excessively fouled or had a bit of dirt in it are a separate issue.

Now all that is worse case scenario. Fact is the British had very loose tolerances for barrels produced in wartime. A new manufactured SMLE, No.4 , or P-14 would still pass acceptance inspection if the bore was as much as .319 in major dia, so long as the central bore measured very close to the nominal .303.

I was lucky to find an SMLE with bore that miked exactly .311, tightest bore of any Enfield I've slugged and actually tighter than the SAID drawings indicate as the minimum acceptable major dia listed as .313.

Remember that when using an over sized bullet the clearance between case neck and chamber neck is reduced. Bullets usually begin to bump up before completly leaving the case neck, so insufficent clearance can cause excessive pressures.
Much depends on how thick the brass is at the case neck.
The Enfield chamber is usually on the loose side, but thats mainly due to the loose head gap letting the case sit further back in the tapered chamber. Best to measure the chamber neck diameter to see how much clearance you'll have.

A very soft boolit with a charge that delivers good initial acceleration should bump up enough to fill out the grooves, but the gas check may not .
A heavy plain base boolit at moderate velocity, perhaps with an over the charge wad, may be best for a very loose .303 bore.

[seppos]

Why not load some of those .318 boolits as cast.. Or run one thru the barrel as cast..?
If it fits the throat, it is good to go..

S

[docone31]

I use notebook paper, and a cigarette roller is about 5$.

[wallenba]

Multigunner, thanks for that info on the barrel anomaly. I'm not crazy afterall. Yes I'm aware of the case neck issues and plan to fire a few factory rounds to measure the expansion room. It also tapers in the neck. Possibly trimming length undersize can buy some room there? I think if this will shoot without keyholing at fifty yards it will be a plinker only.

[wallenba]

I use notebook paper, and a cigarette roller is about 5$.

Thanks Doc, they are cheaper than than I expected.

[303Guy]

Fire-lapping might be the answer.

I'm using a load with a boolit (patched) that does not require neck sizing. That's because the throat is so large and the bore is so worn - the rifle was a target rifle and must have seen many cordite rounds through it. I'm using slow powder at reduced levels (H4350/AR2209) with a fill of wheat bran on top. The wheat bran makes a nice wad behind the boolit and only raises the pressure a small amount with pressure signs still way lower than allowable (as read from primer flattening). Another rifle I have uses the same principle but has a seriously rust damaged bore - a layer of scale covered the bore throughout - giving it a groove diameter of .318 and is as can be imagined, extremely rough. After some serious fire-lapping this rifle still prints a group! I'm sure it's the wheat bran wad that makes it happen. I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to a plain cast boolit. Should you decide to try it, the wheat bran needs to be compressed under the boolit by filling up the neck.

[wallenba]

303Guy, I was already thinking along the lines of a reduced load. Trail Boss being my first choice as I have some experience using it in my Mosins. I picked up 20 rounds of Remington 180 SP's today so that I can measure the neck to see what I've got to play with. Word is the range is flooded a bit due to all the recent snow melting here. I might just pop them off at the local indoor. Also playing with Docone31's PP suggestions. Not going well, nasty looking bases and crooked at the seams. Also going to load and shoot some of the .315's just to see what if.

[wallenba]

Why not load some of those .318 boolits as cast.. Or run one thru the barrel as cast..?
If it fits the throat, it is good to go..

S

Well. they are a bit large to trust to not get pinched at the case neck. SMLE's can't take a bunch of pressure like some milsurps can. Going cautious with this one.

[Multigunner]

Lead lapping can even out a bore that has noticable variation in diameter at midbore.
Cast the lead lapp in the section of bore that is tightest. The lapp won't cut what it doesn't touch in the larger diameter mis section. The smaller diameter end sections would be lapped a hair larger, but this would reduce probablity of blow by as the bullet reaches the mid section.

Federal issued the first voluntary ammunition recall when a Enfield blew out its bolt head due to blow by causing a bullet to seize up as it passed such an eroded section. The shooter was killed by the exactor cutting a major artery.
The closed base bullet blew through practically turning inside out, but the back pressure was enough that the case wall blew out, probably due to a cordworn chamber. E Crossman examined the rifle and stated the chamber wall was thinner on the right side where the case blew out.

Besides the oversized mid bore that barrel was also pitted, the overheated bullet jacket being tightly gripped by the rough section just past the eroded section.

I've seen two varying accounts of just where the bullet seized in the bore, one gave the placement as a few inches past the throat, the other said nine inches up the bore.

[wallenba]

[QUOTE=Multigunner;1167203]Federal issued the first voluntary ammunition recall when a Enfield blew out its bolt head due to blow by causing a bullet to seize up as it passed such an eroded section. The shooter was killed by the exactor cutting a major artery.
The closed base bullet blew through practically turning inside out, but the back pressure was enough that the case wall blew out, probably due to a cordworn chamber. E Crossman examined the rifle and stated the chamber wall was thinner on the right side where the case blew out.

Now you're scaring me! I bought it at Gander Mountain, supposedly they have them inspected for safety purposes before selling them, so they have liablity. That won't help me if I end up like that poor fellow. I loaded some undersize boolits
(.315's) this morning over 12.0 grains of Trail Boss. Thats about 80% of case volume under this boolit and should be quite safe. Just shooting them to see if my bore measurements are faulty.

Are not all manufacturers loading 303 British conservatively now? When approximately did the above incident happen?
Leade lapping is well beyond my capability. Should any competant gun smith be able do it? Any recommendations?

[Multigunner]

[QUOTE=Multigunner;1167203]Federal issued the first voluntary ammunition recall when a Enfield blew out its bolt head due to blow by causing a bullet to seize up as it passed such an eroded section. The shooter was killed by the exactor cutting a major artery.
The closed base bullet blew through practically turning inside out, but the back pressure was enough that the case wall blew out, probably due to a cordworn chamber. E Crossman examined the rifle and stated the chamber wall was thinner on the right side where the case blew out.

Now you're scaring me! I bought it at Gander Mountain, supposedly they have them inspected for safety purposes before selling them, so they have liablity. That won't help me if I end up like that poor fellow. I loaded some undersize boolits
(.315's) this morning over 12.0 grains of Trail Boss. Thats about 80% of case volume under this boolit and should be quite safe. Just shooting them to see if my bore measurements are faulty.

Are not all manufacturers loading 303 British conservatively now? When approximately did the above incident happen?
Leade lapping is well beyond my capability. Should any competant gun smith be able do it? Any recommendations?

I'd read of the incident long ago, and recently found it recounted in an article by E Crossman printed in the 1980's. IIRC the incident was in the late 60's.
There was a court case involving a suit against a gunshop owner who had told the gun owner his rifle was safe to use with that ammunition. Due to the lawsuit very little of the information was released to the public till years after the suit was settled.
According to the first account of the incident that I ran across it was suggested that the pressure level of the cartridge was actually lower than average, and a higher intensity charge would have upset the bullet enough to avoid such serious blowby.
Since this sort of bullet blow through is more common with jacketed bullets, cast boolits may not be as much at risk. Though I have heard of lead bullets suffering blow through.

Jacket stripping and blow through due to blowby was also a serious problem with the 1903 loading of the Springfield .30 Government cartridge due to the highly erosive high temperatute double base powder then in use.

The extent of such erosion would have to be pretty high to cause this sort of incident.
If you can find a way to have the bore star guaged you could be more certain of what you have to work with.

Personally I can't recommend keeping that barrel if a decent replacement barrel can be found.
It might be safe with cast boolit loads but one day cause trouble if jacketed bullets are used with a too light charge.

PS
Much as we like to keep an old rifle going, internal bulging was grounds for an armorer to condemn a barrel. If the British military chose to condemn a barrel in this condition it would be most prudent to do the same.

You should probably check the rifle carefully for signs that it may be a reactivated DP rifle. Theres a few showing up lately due to recent sell offs of DP rifles.

[KCSO]

Here's a trick to try that worked for me. If you want to shoot undersized bullets in a 303 load cream of wheat over the powder. It willl also polish the bore some. I had a 2 groove that went 317 in the bore and I could shoot 315 bullets with 12.5 of Red Dot and COW to the base of the bullet.

[303Guy]

I've heard it said that cream of wheat can harden with time due to moisture absorbtion. I have had favourable results with the use of wheat bran as a filler just slightly compressed. It seems to form a wad behind the boolit both protecting the boolit base and cleaning the bore.

Blow-by causing breach blow ups? I wouldn't want to take a court ruling as scientificaly proven fact. Specially if there was a jury involved. However, something happened!


... they are a bit large to trust to not get pinched at the case neck.We are talking lead boolits. If it will chamber - and that means not push the boolit back into the case - then it should be safe to fire. Worst case scenario is a loaded cartridge gets chambered then extracted, leaving the boolit behind then another cartridge chambered with pushes the boolit deep into the case and we have a kaboom! This would have happened to me except I didn't allow free space in the case for the bullet to move back into. The bullet did get pushed back onto the powder which stopped it moving further back and the cartridge chambering. That policy saved me and/or the rifle that day so I have a tentancy to stick with it. Wheat bran doesn't seem to raise pressure much.

[Multigunner]

We are talking lead boolits. If it will chamber - and that means not push the boolit back into the case - then it should be safe to fire. Worst case scenario is a loaded cartridge gets chambered then extracted, leaving the boolit behind then another cartridge chambered with pushes the boolit deep into the case and we have a kaboom! This would have happened to me except I didn't allow free space in the case for the bullet to move back into. The bullet did get pushed back onto the powder which stopped it moving further back and the cartridge chambering. That policy saved me and/or the rifle that day so I have a tentancy to stick with it. Wheat bran doesn't seem to raise pressure much.

This sort of incident has occurred when salvaged Carcano .268 bullets were used in handloads for a 6.5 Mannlicher Schoenaur with a tight throat. The owner of the rifle was the country western celebrity "Granpa Stoneman".
He'd taken a break from shooting and returned to the bench. When he opened the action the bullet stayed in the throat and he didn't notice the powder charge spilling out, he thought he had left a fired case in the chamber rather than a live round. The neck sizing was probably loose since he didn't notice any difficulty in chambering the next round. When he fired the case cold flowed around the lugs and locked the action up tight, but a gunsmith found a way to get the brass out without damaging the action. Apparently the rifle survived without damage.

[wallenba]

Well I finally got around to shooting those .315's I mentioned in post #16. Not very accurate at 50 yards. Groups were about 4 1/2 inches. I was surprized though that there was NO leading. The barrel may even be cleaner now than it was.:shock: The lube was Alox, just thinned 50/50 with mineral spirits. Load was mild, 12 grains of Trail Boss under those 185 grainers.