Winchester Brass AGAIN

[KCSO]

So everyone will understand where I am coming from I am putting a copy of a letter to Winchester from 1-10 here. I had purchased some NEW 50 round bags of Winchester 44 mag brass and the primer pockets were so loos i could seat a primer with my thumb and knok them out by tapping the case on the bench.

January 14, 2010

S. Forbeck
Product Service
Winchester Ammunition

Dear Sir,

I received your letter File # 1209-310 today and also received the enclosed coupon. To clarify something I did send sample cases to your corporate headquarters prior to sending you an E Mail and received no response. I am enclosing with this letter another sample of the defective cases.

Respectfully


Jim


They sent me a cupon and neither sample I sent to them was ever found.

Well I got bit again...

I bought 50 rounds of 45-70 Winchester brass as it was all I could get. I went to load it and some of the cases would slip right out of the shell holder. The rim diameters ranged from 572 to 605+ and out of round to boot. Some of the cases dragged in the shell holder and some would drop out. Out of a bag of 50 I have 10 cases that I would shoot for serious target work and the rest I can't match more than 4 rounds for rim, case head, length and weight. As soon as I can find someone to take pictures i will post them here and every other forum I can. I am pretty tired of this kind of product and maybe it's time to make some noise.

[theperfessor]

Ouch! What a QC problem. Makes me glad the last bulk brass (.44 Mag and .45AR) I got was from Starline. All of that (1000 pieces) has been sized and primed and is ready to load with no problems at all, primers fit fine (WW and CCI), rims the right size, etc. I'll go there first the next time I order handgun brass.

[higgins]

This sort of problem makes me appreciate the fact that I've hoarded enough range pickup brass over the last 30+ years that I'll never have to buy brass for anything I reload. I've seen Winchester .45acp cases that bear a headstamp that looks a lot like the font on the S&B .45acp headstamp. Supposedly some of the other european military calibers of Winchester brand rifle ammo are loaded by S&B, or loaded by Winchester using S&B brass. I'm normally skeptical of some of the ammo rumors and "truths" on the internet, but I've picked up, washed, sorted, and reloaded various brands of brass long enough to know that brass quality of some brands has slipped. I've also been pleasantly surprised by the quality of the 6.5x55 Prvi Partizan (nny, ppu) brass people have been kind enough to leave laying. Add to this the incidence of mouth splits on once-fired AA 20 gauge cases and it's obvious that quality of some Winchester products has slipped.

[Rusty W]

I've not had problems with primer pockets but I have had problems with split necks. I purchased a new bag of 22-250 winchester brass and on the first sizing the necks split on 4 of them. They have not been fired at all, brand shiney new. I lost 2 more as I was working up a load for my rifle due to split cases upon the first firing, & these were not max loads. I've kept them seperate from my other brass just to see how they hold up. I have about 150 peices of winchester brass from once fired white box winchester ammo. I've loaded them 3 times with no issues. I used to think Winchester was THE brass for the 22-250. I'm having 2nd thoughts now.

[oldhickory]

I never had a problem with Winchester brass, a few years ago I bought 500 new .30 Carbine cases from Remington and the emtire 500 looked more like gas orfices or something. There were no rims, just rounded bottoms with a slight groove. I called Remington and talked to their customer service supervisor. He was very apologetic and wanted the cases delivered directly to his desk. Within a week of sending them to Remington, I had a new shipment of .30 carbine brass direct from Remington and a coupon for $50.00 off any Remington product.

They all make mistakes.

[STP22]

I think that nearly all the ammo companies are still trying to catch up.

Sounds like Winchester should give the second and third shifts a day off.;-)

Scott

[Lee]

Hey! Don't bad mouth the 2nd shift guys....:kidding:
I agree, it's how they all handle the after sale issues that differentiates the good from the bad......

[oldhickory]

Remington's rep said they were running 2 shifts-12 hours, 13 days with 1 day off in 2 weeks. This was 2 years ago, I don't know if they're still running like that now. I never could get hold of anyone from Winchester or Federal.

[Potsy]

I bought a bag of .44 Spec. Winchester brass and 2 bags of .44 Mag Winchester Brass last year.
Case mouths were so uneven that I had to trim all of them WAY below the trim to length to get a decent crimp. None of these were going to be loaded even warm so I'm not worried, just a pain in the butt.
Starline only for me from now on. Don't care if I do have to wait.

[shdwlkr]

the only sad part of this whole thread is that winchester totally dropped the ball and doesn't even seem to care.
I have some new winchester brass from winchester that I got from Midwayusa maybe I better open the bags and see what I really got. Nope as they are the only ones that make the brass in that caliber so will just have to make them work.
As much as I can I buy starline brass because the cases just to seem better made to me.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Anything made by human hands can have defects, that is what customer service is for. Winchester brass has repeatedly burned me. I have a number of 22-250 Win cases that have proven to be wonderful, however a number of other calibers I purchased where unusable, luckily MidwayUSA’s customer service is very good. Remington and Starline brass is the only thing I buy now.

[Hardcast416taylor]

As higgins said about AA 20 gauge cases splitting at the mouth. I quit using them for this same reason 25 years ago. I went to rem. cases and could reload them many times as opposed to once with the AA brand.Robert

[EMC45]

It seems a lot of the ammo companies went to favoring the factory ammo shooter over the reloader....

[Tom-ADC]

I have two or three unopened bags of Winchester 45-70 brass I got a good buy on maybe I should look at them?

[KCSO]

Here are photo’s of the brass. The smaller case head slipped though the shell holder when I primed the case and that’s when I started measuring.

Now as to the first problem just about a year ago. I sent the cases to your corporate headquarters because I felt that this was a safety hazard and expected no reward or reimbursment. I did expect some show of interest in cases that allowed the primers to fall out. When I got no response at all I contacted customer service and received your letter. Agan feeling this was a safety issue I sent you the samples of the defective cases and heard nothing. Now a year later I buy another bag of brass and this is what is inside?

I have thought long and hard about this and have decided that I will NOT accept your offer of a pull tag on this merchandise. I will instead put it on display in our shop as an example of yur quality. I am sorry to do this as I have been buying Winchester brass since it was marked Winchester Western, but I can not believe that I am the only customer to have problems like this and I consider these serious safety issues.

Respectfully,

Jim Janecek
Gunsmith
Sheriff/ Retired

From: Forbeck, Sheryl L EALT
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 4:07 PM
To: rjsport@gpcom.net
Subject: FW: Faulty Brass

Mr. Janecek,



We regret that you have experienced a problem with our product. Regarding your previous claim, the letter and certificate you received were mailed prior to the samples being received in our quality department. This explains the letter that you received stating that you were unable to provide a sample to investigate. Please keep in mind that our offices and manufacturing facility were closed December 22nd through January 3rd. The sample sent was logged in by the quality department January 6, 2011. The letter that was sent to you was dated December 30, 2010.



Regarding the most recent claim, we would like to issue a prepaid UPS call tag to bring in the incident shellcases for investigation. If you would like to pursue that avenue, please call me at the number listed below or email.



Respectfully,


And they still won't say that the SAMPLES were defective.

Sorry Fellows but I am afraid that Winchester Olin has joind Wolf Ammo on my Sierra Lima

[Tom-ADC]

I just opened a bag and checked all 50 for fit in a shell holder, all were tight and I don't for see any problems when it comes around to loading them.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
WOW, THANK YOU FOR THE HEADS UP.:Fire::Fire:

[Tom-ADC]

So Jim you are not going to send them some of the brass so they can check them out?
Just my .02 cents but that isn't going to help find out why the brass is bad.

[troy_mclure]

ill always bought starline brass for handgun brass. ive had some 10mm brass from winchester that was unusable due to too small rims.

[NickSS]

Over the years I have had problems with all brass manufacturers of one sort or another. Right now most are so busy loading ammo to catch up on demand and satisfy military needs that it seams that some QC is being ingnored. This is too bad but the only way to get it corrected is to complain to the company that made it. They get enough complaints and they will correct the problem or go out of business. I too have so much brass that I rarely buy any so the problem is not too pressing for me.

[Lee]

I had some 44-40 I bought from XXX. (Really don't remember who it was, now) Without really admitting anything, they accepted my mostly full return bag of brass, and sent a completely full bag of 45-70 brass. I was satisfied. Keep plugging away. Sooner or later you will get to speak with someone who knows what they are talking about, and you will get some satisfaction......Lee

[MakeMineA10mm]

Wow, that's a shame. I've always had a preferrence for Winchester brass. I live a couple hours away from the plant in East Alton, and I've had a couple friends who worked there.

I've always found Winchester brass to be superior quality to most other brands. Federal comes close, but I've had some issues with their brass being too soft once or twice.

Remington put out a bad batch of 10mm brass back in the late 80s/early 90s that can be identified from the 45-size headstamp. (It still says 10mm Auto and R-P, but they sized the stamp to be the same size as a 45 ACP, so the top 1/3 of the stamp is off the brass...)

I have a round of Hornady 10mm brass with no flashhole punched from the primer pocket into the powder cavity...

Some of the best brass ever was the older PMC. (Haven't tried any of the new PMC stuff, so can't comment if they've changed or not.)

I also really liked the old Prvi stuff (nny headstamp) in 9mm. Had some of those that went 20 loadings with some pretty warm loads thrown in among the 20 times...

The only new brass I've bought in the last 5 years has been Winchester 30-40 Krag brass. I just resized, primed, and belled the first bag of 50 in preparation of loading some up. Didn't have a single hitch and it all looks fantastic...

Oh, I take that back, I just bought some Prvi 7.92x33 Kurz primed brass. Haven't messed with it yet, but it's annealed, sized and primed, right from the factory. Looks very good.

Overall, I'd say you just had a bit of bad luck with that batch of 45-70 brass. Could've happened to anybody and could've been of any manufacturer. I think you're being kind-of stubborn not accepting their pull-tag. I'd be shocked if they didn't send you a brand new bag of replacement brass after checking to make sure it was right... The reason the lady didn't say anything about the brass is because she's from customer relations, not the technical dept. She probably hasn't seen the brass and maybe wouldn't know what to do with it to measure it, if she had... She's just trying to address your problem and make sure you're happy. You're stopping her from accomplishing her job. :wink:

[George369]

I noticed only a few years ago that Winchester used to advertise their brass as made in the usa in their own brass mills.This statement has dissappeard I wonder if they are made overseas now?

[1Shirt]

Like all reloaders I guess, I have a percentage of Win brass, but only because at the time it was the only thing available. Have always prefered Rem over Win. Never had a problem with Rem. And I have had good luck with Fed. Any/all Norma I had was always excellent. Have no complaints with Starline. The brass that I have boought from GRAF is made in one of the Baltic countries, and so far have had no problem with any of it. I still have some Herters brass for 243 and for 6.5x55, and have no idea how many rounds have been fired with it.

When it is available for 06/308, I prefer mil MATCH brass for weight consistancy. Have had over the years had more case failure with Win. If I could afford it, and could start all of my brass being of one brand it would be Norma or Lapua.

Excellent report KCSO. It is important that we as a reloading community on line keep each other informed of problems in the manufacture of any of our reloading components.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[krag35]

The last brass I bought was Winchester 243. out of 50, 17 split in the neck sizing them. Took them bck to the store I bought them from and got a refund and bought Remington brass

[*Paladin*]

Funny I came across this thread. I just bought a bag of virgin Winchester .357 Mag brass the other day. The first primer I seated felt like the priming ram didn't pick up a primer it seated so easy (Lee hand-primer). The pockets are also unusually deep. So much so that I was afraid the primers were seated so deep in the pockets that they may not get a good firing pin strike. Just about every case was equally loose in the pocket. I've always had good luck with Winchester cases before this. Now I wish I had bought the R-P cases that were a buck more per 100...

[plainsman456]

Several years ago a friend of mine bought some 41 magnum Winchester brass,about a 1000 pieces or so.
All of the necks split when seating the bullet.Some made it to the first firing but they all split.
We called them and they sent a shipping box prepaid and when they received them they sent 2000 pieces for a replacement.
They said the mix or heat treatment was the problem.
Give them a chance to make it right.