.30-30 load

[Ironclad]

I have a marlin 336 .30-30.
I have some Missouri Bullet Co. #2 White Tail bullets (135 grain RNFP, BHN 18, .309") and some imr 3031 powder. I just want a fairly light practice load that won't lead my barrel.

Looking at loading data for some heavier lead bullets and guestimating, I'm thinking somewhere around 20-22.5 grains of imr 3031 sounds about right for the 135 grain.

Any problems with this? Any suggestions?

Thanks

[steve in kc]

IMR doesn't specify a load for a 135gr cast or jacketed bullet. Not saying it can't be done, but there's not proven load by that powder manuf listed.

Now, having said that, in the LEE Reloading book, it specifically states that it is safe (in their opinion only of course) to use the same or a slightly reduced STARTING CHARGE for a lighter projectile if it's close or something to that affect, but you're going in the opposite direction; heavier boolit for a lighter bullet if using the Hogdon reloading info.

For example, I shoot a C309-150-F with 30.2 grains of H4895. That's about 2gr under a max load for a 160 grain JACKETED boolit. I feel safe in doing this for 2 reasons: 1) Hogdon specifically states that charges SPECIFICALLY for H4895 can be reduced quite a bit (can't remember the exact %) because of the powder's burn rate/design and 2) my boolit is 10 grains lighter and won't create the pressure that the heavier j-word will.

If you don't have some reloading manuals handy, take a trip to a gunshop that has some. They usually have some open that you can thumb through...or better yet...buy a couple.

[Ironclad]

Im looking at a Lyman data chart that calls for a 170 grain lead bullet over 21.6-27 grains of imr 3031. The 21.6 grains is supposed to go 1555 fps and the 27 grains gives 2016 fps.

I figured if I went with about the starting load or a little less that would still give me less than 2000 fps with the 135 bullet

[lonewelder]

I know you want to use 3031 but for what you want you might use 8-10gr of unique.If you are going to shoot cast it's a must have powder anyway.

[NickSS]

Generally speaking loading a lighter bullet with data from a heavier bullet will give you more velocity that you would get with the heavier bullet not less. So if you load 21.6 gr of 3031 and you will get 1500 fps with a 170 gr slug the same charge with a 135 gr bullet will give you a higher velocity maybe in the 1700 fps range. Also you do not mention if your bullets are gas checked or not. If not you need to keep velocity under 1700 or so or you will get leading. I recomend that you pick up a pound of Unique and load 8 gr for a starting load. That will probably give you around 1400 to 1500 fps and a nice plinking load.

[Ironclad]

The bullets are not gas checked. I don't need super light loads, just slow enough to not lead.

[Ironclad]

I guess what I'm asking is what are the drawbacks of the load I described?

[geargnasher]

First things first, Ironclad. In my experience, .309" boolits in a 30-30 MC barrel CANNOT BE MADE TO NOT LEAD, with or without a gas check. The groove diameter is more like .3095" than typical .308" ballard rifling, and with boolits that hard you won't get them to seal in the barrel at velocities that a plain-based boolit can handle, anyway. And unless they've changed it, the lube on MBC's boolits sucks, bigtime.

That being said, here's what I CAN offer. You're right smack in the middle of a dilemma, one that I've been obsessing over for the last couple of weeks myself.

I've been trying to get a plain-based or unchecked boolit out of a .30-30 in the 1400-1600 fps range safely without overpressuring and getting gas leaks/leading. All of the powders I've been able to find data for are either too fast and build too much pressure too quickly for plain-based boolits in that velocity range, or are too slow to reduce safely to those velocities.

You want good case sealing, so you need at least 16K CUP, but somewhere between 20-30K CUP you get leading from alloy failure, just where depends on a billion things, but that's about the range I've found so far.

For your reduced 3031 load, I will tell you that it burns erratically with both 150 and 165 grain boolits when at or below 22 grains, and that's enough to blow accuracty and get you well into the leading range with the boolits you describe, even if they were sized .311". The good news is that you could ALMOST fill the case to the base of the boolit with the stuff and not overpressure the gun.

What I've found: 748, IMR4198, and H414/760 get spooky when reduced to below 1600 FPS with cast boolits, Herco is really dirty, as is 2400 in these velocity ranges. Reloder 7 works very well even down to 15 grains burning fairly clean, being accurate, and SEEMS safe to me based on the very consistent chrono and target data I got from it in my gun and with my boolits, might not work in yours.. Keep in mind that's 25% below the recommended starting load for my 165-grain boolit, and I wasn't using a check.

Blue Dot would be perfect as far as burn rate goes, but it is another really spooky powder to work with, one day you work up the perfect load, then shoot it on a day 30 degrees cooler and it goes to heck with irregular pressure spikes, hangfires, and other not-so-good things.

In the end, I think your lighter, somewhat harder boolits (compared to most unchecked ones I've shot) will fare very well with UNIQUE. You should be able to get up into the 1500 fps range without excessive pressure with lighter cast boolits, but no guarantees you'll ever get them to not lead unless they fit the gun and have a premium lube.

Gear

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

so what would your your ideal powder be for a 165 cast bullet for a 30-30

i am new to casting so far only cast for my muzzle loader, before i cast any for 30-30 i am looking at trying some cast for cowboy action shooting avalable at the store , 1 was thinking of giving them an extra coat of lee alux they have a checked and a non checked 165 gr lead

trialboss seemed like a very safe powder to use but , what if you wanted more speed out of it , and what are you finding is the sweet spot speed wise for accuracy vs tragectory and terminal performance only expect shots to 150 yards max

i am not shooting cowboy action , looking for a general purpose 30-30 with a low cost working into reloading my own cast. for a 1969 marlin 336 with micro groove rifeling
so far i have only shot it with 170 gr remington jacketed but it is as acurate as the iron sights allow for , it has taken a few deer but mostly i hunt in shotgun land.

[excess650]

A coating of liquid alox MIGHT give you a chance( with those 135gr .309"), and its worth trying.

As for powders GN has suggested some, but I think AA5744 might not work properly at the velocity range and bullet weight you're speaking of. At low pressures it leaves unburned powder behind, and the lower the pressure, the more the powder. AA5744 is quicker burning than Reloader 7 or 4198. 2400 might also make too much velocity or too low pressure under those conditions.

Unique may well be the best choice, or certainly one of them. Herco, Winchester Super Field, Hogdon Universal, IMR 800X, and SR 4756 would be others that might have a chance.

Make sure you have all of the copper out of your barrel! Coat the boolits with liquid alox, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a heavy coat. Load with one of these flake shotshell powders starting around 8 gr and work up 1/2gr at a time. If no leading, look for accuracy. If it leads, the boolits are too small.

[Bret4207]

The bullets are not gas checked. I don't need super light loads, just slow enough to not lead.

As Gear said, you have very hard (relatively), undersized, pain base boolits that probably have a hard lube. That sir, is a perfect recipe for inaccuracy and leading.

You might consider buying some booltis from some of our sponsor vendors like Bullshop that will be large enough (.311 would be a safe bet), not overly hard (they do that so the boolits don't get dented in shipment and HARDCAST! sells) with a proper lube (again, hard lubes are for shipping ease).

OTH, if you want to try the ones you have I'd look at 8.0 Unique or 10.0 2400 and see what happens. I'd also pick up a bag of 4/0 steel wool to clean out the leading, it won't hurt your barrel.

[geargnasher]

A coating of liquid alox MIGHT give you a chance( with those 135gr .309"), and its worth trying.

As for powders GN has suggested some, but I think AA5744 5744 seems to need too much pressure for good ignition, I found RX7 "outburns" it every time in 44/70 and 45/90 with heavy boolits. I wouldn't even consider it for the 30-30 unless boolits were checked, then it might work well, but RX7 will get more velocity per unit of pressure in the bottleneck cases too. might not work properly at the velocity range and bullet weight you're speaking of. At low pressures it leaves unburned powder behind, and the lower the pressure, the more the powder. AA5744 is quicker burning than Reloader 7 or 4198. Quicker, yes, but needs more pressure than either of those for a good burn. 2400 might also make too much velocity or too low pressure under those conditions. I don't have any way to measure internal pressures directly, but 2400 works best with checks. At the 14-1500fps level pressures in a .30-30 it just doesn't light well, and even with checks the pressures start to build quickly when you work up the charge. I don't like it in the .30 calibers personally. Others have good luck with it, but may not have tried anything else.

Unique may well be the best choice, or certainly one of them. Herco, Winchester Super Field, Hogdon Universal, IMR 800X, and SR 4756 would be others that might have a chance. Just my opinions here, but I've tried Herco and it burns like a coal train and needs some pressure to work. 800X wont' get into the teens without nearing max pressure, I've considered WSF as one to try, but I'm not convinced SR 4756 or even SR4759 would be worth trying.

Make sure you have all of the copper out of your barrel! Coat the boolits with liquid alox, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a heavy coat. Load with one of these flake shotshell powders starting around 8 gr and work up 1/2gr at a time. If no leading, look for accuracy. If it leads, the boolits are too small.

I have to agree that you can't really go wrong with Unique in the .30-30 with any boolit weight, you just might not get the velocity you want. That's the nature of the beast when shooting plain-based boolits. I'd go buy a pound of Unique and start at 7 grains with a 135 grain boolit, work up in half-grain increments until you find the sweet spot. It might only be 1200 fps when you're getting the best groups, but it WILL work pretty well with your unchecked boolits, whereas some of the other powders mentioned need a lot more care, research, and attention to work.

My next try for my project is HS6 and Longshot, but both have shown me in the past they need Dacron filler in bottleneck cases to get consistent groups.

FWIW,

Gear

[res45]

About all I can off is my little plinking load I shoot in my Sav. 170 30-30 pump gun,I use either a Lee 150 or 170 gr. RNFP traditional grease groove bullet coated with two light coats of Alox/.JPW and leave the GC off.

I shoot the bullets as cast form 12 BHN WW alloy air cooled behind 7.0 grs. of Alliant Red Dot and any LR or LRM primer. MV runs just a hair over 1200 fps. with the 150 gr. bullet.

I little 9 shot group I shot with the 150's with the irons at 50 yds.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/scan0001-1-2.jpg

[Malcolm]

I have a friend that has a 336 & all he shoots is 170grs lead with so much 748 no leading We shoot 200 meters & run some where in the range of about 200 rds. a day. just my 2 cs worth.

[geargnasher]

Yeah, with a gas check and the right alloy you can shoot 170-grainers to 2200fps and at least 2moa as far as it will fly, and you can almost fill the case with 748 and get a nice clean burn. Take away the check and the whole game changes.

Gear

[btroj]

Yep, different bullet, different rifle, different fit, etc, etc ,etc.
What works for one bullet/gun combo is not always going to work in another.
I agree entirely with Bret and Gear- smallish bullet, plain base- good recipe for leading. Now if those bullets were sized .311 or .312 I would say you have something there. But at .309? Nope. Too small.
As for a good powder, you will get too many choices here to even keep track. That would be a good place to start your testing.

[NHlever]

Actually, I have one Marlin 30-30 that has a tight bore that slugs .3073, and .309 boolits do work in that one. I think the OP should slug the bore, and find out as much as he can prior to shooting those boolits. If his bore is larger, perhaps he could work a trade with someone, and get something more suitable, or maybe even sell them in a gun shop........ though that isn't a good way to get rich. I've shot a bunch of IMR 3031 behind cast bullets in my earlier days, but those boolits did have gas checks, and the loads were warmer than the OP is talking about. I like Unique, and Red Dot with light loads, but I seldom shoot boolits that heavy without gas checks........... guess it's time I tried it. :-)

[ktw]

I have a marlin 336 .30-30.
I have some Missouri Bullet Co. #2 White Tail bullets (135 grain RNFP, BHN 18, .309") and some imr 3031 powder. I just want a fairly light practice load that won't lead my barrel.

Looking at loading data for some heavier lead bullets and guestimating, I'm thinking somewhere around 20-22.5 grains of imr 3031 sounds about right for the 135 grain.

Any problems with this? Any suggestions?

Thanks

I use a 120 grain, plain based, RNFP (the old Willbird group buy bullet) as a plinker in my 30-30. 7.5 grain Unique shot the best for me and gives me 1450 fps in a 20 Win94 carbine barrel. I generally cast them out of air cooled wheelweights (BHN 11-12) but have been know to use range scrap (BHN8-9) with good results. They get lubed with NRA 50-50 and sized 312 (I also use them in a 32 revolver from time to time).

-ktw

[cephas53]

Use unique for light loads and settled on 5744 for the rest of them. 5744 has turned out to work well in all cast rifle I do.

[Jech]

Ironclad, I am getting ready to load for my Marlin 336ss and also do business with Brad over at Missouri Bullet Co. I had heard about the Marlin Microgroove tendencies to be oversize and thus started a conversation with him about this.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=572535

Right now, he is generously making batches of his 165gr #1 Whitetail bullets sized to .311" for me and several other THR members. All you have to do do get them is ask him to size them to .311" in the comment field when you place an order.

This isn't the first time Brad has produced a custom bullet for me while I waited on boolit moulds, he does a great job!