Steppung back in time - UMC .22 LR B.P. adventure

[w30wcf]

Recently I located an old 2 piece box of 22 LR cartridges. Most all the writing on the box was gone but I could barely make out "UMC" on the bottom edge. I pulled one of the bullets and they are b.p. cartridges.

As the pic shows, the lube was dried out and there is some tarnishng of the copper case. Thankfully, they will clean up ok. I used a toothbrush to clean off the dry lube and a bore brush to clean off the cartridge case. I then relubed with SPG. Hopefully the priming compound still has some life left.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/22bpUMCjpg.jpg

Well.......tried to fire a couple of the original UMC .22 b.p. cartridges recently, but click, click....priming compound is "deader than a doornail". I wasn't totally surprised, just a bit disappointed.

So......I spent a couple of hours cleaning and pulling bullets and powder from the UMC cartridges. Thankfully the case was not crimped into the bullet heel so the heel was not distorted in the process.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/22bpUMCbulletpowderjpg.jpg

Bullet diameter .225"
factory compression: .035"

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/umc22bullets.jpg

After loading the 4.5 grs. of the original powder into Armscor cases, I seated the U.M.C. bullets with a Lyman H&I .225 die.

10 loaded and ready to go
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/22bpUMCbulletsreloadedjpg.jpg

Had a chance to shoot 10 of the assembled b.p. cartridges at my clubs 50 ft. indoor range since the weather wasn't too good outdoors and I was anxious to test them.

I was very pleased with the results:-)
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/22bpUMCtargetjpg.jpg

As Jackie Gleason would say "How sweet it is!"
I'm saving the rest of the cartridges to test at 50 and 100 yards once decent weather arises.
The fouling in the barrel was surprisingly light.

.22 R.F bullet mold
I am getting a group buy together for a mold to replicate the UMC bullet. If anyone has an interest, please post.

Thank you,
w30wcf

[Black Prince]

VERY cool dude! That is a neat story and thanks for doing it.

[kokomokid]

Armscor cases ??? Are these the primed only cases?

[John Boy]

Armscor cases ??? Are these the primed only cases?
Yes, empty primed cases. Have to buy them in 5000 qty for 100 bucks

[stubshaft]

Very slick!

[Baja_Traveler]

I for one would be interested in a .22 mold - so long as it doesn't cost what my Paul Jones mold did!

Your experiment sounds like a lot of fun! It would certainly be an attention getter at the BPCR smallbore shoots! Never have I seen anybody shooting BP .22's in them...

[Lead pot]

Yes, empty primed cases. Have to buy them in 5000 qty for 100 bucks

John what is the outside diameter of that brass?

I have about 3000 primed cases left over from the 80's that measures .223 outside diameter.

Kurt

[MtGun44]

Pretty neat experiment, really great to see how the old BP ammo worked in reality.
Not at all surprised that the priming was gone.

I had absolutely no idea that you could buy primed .22 LR empty brass. What is the
normal market for this? Are people loading their own for tarket work?

[G50-70]

Very interesting post.

Who will be making the molds for the group buy and where can the Armscor cases be purchased?

Gary

[Lead pot]

I'm using the Lyman 225-438 mould

[Lead pot]

MtGun;

I don't know if there is much of a market for the primed brass any more.
The reloading .22 rim fire rounds was used mostly when the long range .22 silhouette shoots started to get a little hotter load worked up to knock over the Rams that were left standing. But that dropped out when they started making a heavier factory load.
I haven't seen any sold since I got mine in the 80's and I dont know how old they were when I got them at a gun show.

[Baja_Traveler]

The only place I found that has the Armscor cases: The Hunting Shack (http://store.thehuntingshack.com/armscor22lremptybrass.aspx)

As of this post only 1 left - I bought the other one yesterday...


Very interesting post.

Who will be making the molds for the group buy and where can the Armscor cases be purchased?

Gary

[w30wcf]

Guys,
Thank you for your interest. David Mos will produce the molds. He is a top quality producer of bullet molds. The cost for a single cavity is $90 and for a double..$125.

Below is a pic of one of his molds.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/attachment.php?id=2509

w30wcf

[John Boy]

John Boy is in for a double cavity

[John Boy]

The custom UMC 40gr mould purchase is a Go ... email from w44wcf:
Mold # - KT22LR
1 cavity - $90
2 cavity - $125
Terms: 50% down / 50% when molds are ready to ship / Personal checks or Money order

Tolerance: .000” + .001”
Sprue plate: .07” sprue hole diameter(s)
Mold material: cast iron
Delivery 4-6 weeks

Please send your payment for 50% of the total this week if possible so we can get into his schedule.
NOTE: Reference the above Mold #.

David Mos
1282 Polk 71
Mena, AR 71953
’
Please let me know when you mail your payment to David.

[Lead pot]

Well I got everything put together and I am in full production of blk powder .22 rimfire reloading :smile:

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1478.jpg


http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1481.jpg

[John Boy]

Lead pot ... for the good of the order!
What shell holder - expander and seating dies are you using?

[Lead pot]

Well John for the good of the order..you make them.

[218bee]

Why oh why did I open this post............I just gotta try this. Do I see those boolits having a heel?? meaning just bottom of boolit fits in case, only goes in that far? Does the BP need compression as in say a 45/70...no air gap? I assume all the primed cases gone for now...any other sources?? Damn that would be cool.
Thanks for an enlightening post. Man I got to try that.

[John Boy]

Well John for the good of the order..you make them.
Why did I know that was going to be your answer ... so,
* Round stock & fly cutter for the shell holder from MSC
* Lee Universal Expander for the mouth
* A blank and ream it out for the seating die - with a custom plug
That's my plan

[Baja_Traveler]

Payment sent for a 2 cavity mold.

I'm in the same boat - need to figure out how to assemble everything once I have the mold. I'm thinking that I may be able to use my Paco Accurizer die and make a seating punch to seat the bullet.

[Lead pot]

If you dont have a lathe or know someone that does it for a hobby you can use a .22-250 Hornady loading die if they still make that die with a sliding bushing that drops out on the bottom of the die body. That bushing is the proper size at .225" to take out the caseneck expansion and flair and when you run the case with the bullet in it will close the flair and swage the case neck back down to hold the bullet tight and let the round chamber in the rifle.
You will have to make a bushing from a copper pipe or several washers to hold the sliding bushing down and make a longer seating stem. This you can take from a different loading die that fits the Hornady set up.
I did this back in the 8o's and it worked quite well if you cant make your own die.
The case holder is another story.
A .25 caliber case holder will get you close and with a little work with a torch and silver solder or brazing the holder shut a little and a knife file work is enough to hold the case if you dont have a mill or milling attachment for a lathe. You can also hold th case forward in the .25 cal shell holder to get the job done too.

This has been a fun project so far that I really enjoyed TNX to W30wcf for starting this thread. It kept me occupied for a while till this winter weather breaks..

[John Boy]

Ok, here's how my black powder 22LR reloads will be made:
* I contacted CH4D and sitting on the shelf was 1 remaining seating die that Dave made a small batch of about 5 years ago. Die and either the exact or a close diameter shell holder will arrive by Priority mail
* Expander die will be done using the Lee Universal expander die and plugs
* The custom made David Mos 2x cavity mould will be completed in 4 - 6 weeks - On Order
* Empty primed 22 cases - On Hand
* Fines from FFFFg old DuPont powder will be collected from the container after I shake the powder through a 40 mesh screen
So .... I'm good to go with not much fabrication of needed reloading parts :awesome:

[Antigeek1]

Howdy all lucky people in the land of the free, :hlhat:

Just to let everyone know that though my needs are slightly different as regards usage (I'm not not really into blackpowder), I too was in similar need of some decent custom made tools to mould some standard

40 grain heeled .22lr bullet heads for display in inerts and for shooting through super powered air rifles.

About 5 weeks ago I contacted Bernie at Old West Bullet Moulds to see how he felt about putting a solution together for me.

Due to the small size of the bullets, he it was decided that a three cavity mould would be ideal.

The pictured three cavity mould and assorted tools that arrived in the post this morning are what he has come up with.

Build quality, fit and finish are first rate. The handles were a bonus as I was expecting to have to buy a set of Lyman handles separately from MidWay UK at about £50.

Know all I need is for Bernie to build me a simple case trimmer to trim Ramset long blank cases into the standard .22LR and .22 Short case lengths and a Lee lead melting pot.

This post is really to express my thanks to Bernie for taking on this slightly unusual project and to show others his handy work. He is a really straight dealing chap who is really great to communicate with.

For the $220 paid including shipping to the UK, I feel that for a tool that will likely last a life time, it was money well spent. Now that he has the cherrys made, later buyers might be able to get an even

better deal from him.

When I get a melting pot, I shall put some pictures up of the finished cast products..

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/th_1.jpg (http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/?action=view&current=1.jpg)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/th_3.jpg (http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/?action=view&current=3.jpg)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/th_4.jpg (http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/?action=view&current=4.jpg)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/th_5.jpg (http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/?action=view&current=5.jpg)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/th_6.jpg (http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/?action=view&current=6.jpg)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/th_7.jpg (http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/?action=view&current=7.jpg)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/th_8.jpg (http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/?action=view&current=8.jpg)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/th_9.jpg (http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/AntiGeek/22%20LR%20Mould%20Mold/?action=view&current=9.jpg)

[218bee]

this sounds like a cool project..i didnt think of using a ramset blank for a primed case.
if loading black powder does the powder need to be compressed ie-no air gap?
i assume 4f black would be the choice of powder.
please keep us posted

[John Boy]

if loading black powder does the powder need to be compressed ie-no air gap?With 4.5gr of 50 mesh powder, the column height is right at the case mouth before any compression