My 1st experience with triple 7

[roaddog1m]

I live in South Dakota and finding the Holy Black is nearly impossible. I have a buddy that's going to split a case with me when he gets down to Nebraska but for now, I decided to try Triple 7. I've used Pyrodex and don't have a lot of good things to say about it.
I did a little reading and although there isn't a ton of available data out there, (not the most net savvy guy in the world) I settled on 50grains by weight pushing my 405grain bullet out of a roller I recently bought. (I don't know a lot about rollers or BPCR except what I've recently read) I had cast some 22BHN 405's (actually 388) and used Liq alox as lube.
When I first got it home, I loaded some rounds up with 42.5 grains of Varget and got 1435 fps on average out of them. I had trouble finding a place to get 200yds because of snow but finally found a spot and set up over the hood of my patrol vehicle (sand bagged). (Yep, we can do that out here) I set my chrono on the other side and shot a nice 6" group of five shots @ 200yds. I wrote down the load and sight settings for 100 and 200yds. The more I read however, the more I wanted to make the switch over to BP.
I checked all over the damn state and couldn't find any of the real thing. I had some Pyrodex left over but wasn't willing to waste my time on it. (the pellets are cr@p too)
Back to the Triple 7. I made up some bullet lube out of 50/50 bees wax and olive oil (cuz that's what I had here available) and pan lubed some of my 405's. I loaded them on top of 50gr by weight and a card wad that I made out of a cereal box using a 45 ACP case as my cutter. I put together 12 rounds and loaded my 44cal Navy with a light load of 15gr by weight.
I went out today and shot them over the chrono. The 45-70 clocked 1425fps and the 44 came in at 505fps.
I just shot off hand at 100yds but ended up with a seven inch group. I was pretty happy considering I wasn't trying all that hard.
I shot the revolver at a 7yd target and clover leafed them all. It was a very light load with almost no recoil.

Over all, my impression of Triple Seven is very good! Clean up was a snap! Can't wait to get the real stuff in there!!!

Tom

[Swede44mag]

I bought Pyrodex RS on sale if I could afford it I would only use the 777 in everything but the flintlock. I don't care for their pellets though.

Sounds like you are having fun Keep it up.

[Don McDowell]

I live in South Dakota and finding the Holy Black is nearly impossible. I have a buddy that's going to split a case with me when he gets down to Nebraska ! Can't wait to get the real stuff in there!!!

Tom

Enough with the excuses.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501, they'll ship you 1 lb if that's what you want.

https://www.powderinc.com/cgi-bin/bpstore/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=enter&thispage=order.htm&ORDER_ID=!ORDERID! Ships in 5-50 lb lots

[littlejack]

Come'on Don. Cut um some slack.
Jack

[Don McDowell]

I did , :-D could of left em links to places that will only ship full case lots.:mrgreen:

[Patman]

While I was waiting delivery of my Sharps a couple of years ago, I witnessed a good friend touch off some rounds loaded with triple 7 out of his Sharps, caliber 45-120. After watching him get pummeled after only 3 rounds I decided right then and there that I would only shoot real blackpowder from my Sharps when it arrived. My only regret right now is that I didn't get over the eyewash effect of the size of the 45-120. Next time it will be in a more friendly 45-70.As for my friend, he went home and pulled his other rounds apart .

[roaddog1m]

Thanks Don, I'm waiting now for confirmation that my buddy is picking up a case and splitting it with me.

Patman: 777 is a bit more powerful than BP and you can't pack a 45-120 case full of that stuff and expect not to get thumped. (unless hunting Rhinos, then you want to get thumped) I think I read 15% less and make sure you are comparing apples to apples as far as loads measured by volume or weight. I'm still learning myself but starting out on the other end of the spectrum. I like the 777 but I will be switching over to the real stuff as soon as it gets here.

[Kraschenbirn]

At one time, I considered giving 777 a try...over-the-counter BP is as difficult to find in IL as in SD...but was put off by the "not for cartridge reloading" warning on the label. Has Hodgen's changed their mind or is it the general opinion that the warning just another CYA for product liability?

(Thinking about it again 'cause I'm down to my last pound of Goex Ffg and won't be passing anywhere close to Graf's anytime soon.)

Bill

[Don McDowell]

So what's the big attraction to the fake smoke? If you don't have the gumption to put in an order with one of the several suppliers that will ship blackpowder to your home addy, why not just shoot smokeless? There's no shortage of smokeless loads that develop less pressure and better accuracy than 777 and the other fakes, and you don't have to put up with the billowing clouds of white smoke.

[roaddog1m]

I'm pretty new to the BP scene actually. I've been handloading since 1990 unless you count the years camped out beside my Dad as he loaded shotgun shells on his old Herters press. Those days, my job as to use a black magic marker and write "6" or "BB" on the brass somewhere.

Since then, I started loading myself for pistol and rifle. I competed in IPSC and shot over a thousand rounds a week preparing for the Nationals. I've even won a few guns along the way. Spent 8yrs in the military, 11yrs in LE, been divorced twice, hit by a car, shot at, had several people try to stab me and I've shot and killed in the line of duty. I've lost count years ago of how many fights I've been in just on duty alone. I'm still in LE and work on an Indian reservation. I'm not new to guns or shooting or seeing dead people for that matter. I am however new to BPCR's and find it intriguing that so many people seethe hatred towards a black powder substitute and talk down to someone whom they don't know because he admits that he's testing it in a rifle. Very interesting. Thanks to anyone who responded without sarcasm.

side note:
My Dad passed on last spring and I took his old Herters press (that's older than me) and put it to use along side my two Dillons and two Rock Chuckers.

[cajun shooter]

Roaddog1m, It might seem to you as a newbie to our forum that Don was a little gruff with his answer. I myself am ex- military 4th ID 65-67, former cop who lost two riding partners in line of duty and have been shot, cut, and beaten. I suggest that you stay around long enough to see what is going on. With your life encounters you should know that it is not good to have a rush to judgement before gathering all your info. Don, is one of the nicest guys on the forum but he and I even bumped heads once. We both were man enough to work it out and I consider him a friend. Don, is the same as I am. We both have a heavy dedication to the sport of black powder shooting. We have on average 3 newbies every few weeks or more that come to this forum and ask for a load for one of the BP subs and every single one of them give the same answer. I can't find BP in my area. This is not 1903. You may purchase BP from several online sources that will ship any amount you wish to buy. The more you buy the better the price. Our world is in the drive thru mode and if they can't do that then they say they can't buy it. To us who are truly dedicated to the sport it is aggravating that people say they want to shoot BP but will not put out any effort to do it. We have a huge sticky section that is loaded with information but every week a newbie will say what is the best powder and load for my 45-70? They are so lazy they want you to do all the work and hand it to them. You will lose respect fast by not putting some effort in. You should know how it is if you have a cop who sits on his butt and expects every one else to do his work. There is a man on the SASS forum that has written a few books about shooting the BP subs and yet calls himself a BP shooter. I asked him why he didn't shoot the real powder and chose to shoot the subs. His answer was that he lived in Houston and the closet store with BP was 20 miles away. That is crazy as I drive 5 hours round trip or have Fed-Ex come to my house. If you want to shoot BP then you can. Have you ever taken a call because no other units would respond and then see one on your way sitting on his butt. This is in that same area. If you want to shoot subs then that is fine but don't make up lame excuses. We want our sport to grow and continue after we are gone. Welcome to the forum and thanks for your Service. Later David AKA Fairshake

[Don McDowell]

There's no sarcasm intended.
The old arquement "I can't get powder locally" is bogus and has been for more than 10 years, it's old and been hashed out on all the internet boards for ever.
I do not understand the attraction to the fake stuff. Regular smokeless is the same price as the fake stuff, only if you go with something like sr 4759 or 4227 you can get twice as many round per pound as you can with the fake stuff, and really don't have to worry about clean up. The fake stuff will attack your brass so cleaning up the brass is necessary, and you need to get the fouling out of the barrel so you use water and then have to oil the gun... I'm not seeing any advantage over black there either....Have never seen anybody win a match anywhere using the fake stuff when going head to head with shooters using either smokeless or black, another good reason to pass it by.
The fake stuff at 21 or so apound is higher than you can get a 5lb order of Goex sent to your door from Powder Inc.

[Don McDowell]

As a LEO is South Dakota, I would of thought you would of had contact with the 1/2 dozen or so State Troopers that shoot black powder at matches all over this part of the country, not to mention the two or three matches they throw every year at Winner.

[Bullshop]

There are exceptions in getting powder of any kind shipped TYD as in here in Ak. I have tried most everyone on the net and cant find a way to get it done.
I will say though that if I was in SD I bet I would have a good stash of BP put up.

[roaddog1m]

I guess I'll start off by saying that I wasn't asking for a load or advise. Just stating what results I had gotten using 777 ffg in my 45-70 and in my Navy. I didn't ask where to get BP as I had a retired trooper who does shoot BP matches going down to pick us up and split a case with me. I simply bought a lb of 777 and tested it in the mean time and posted the results of my 1st tests. I didn't ask for anything Don and I'm sure that you get tired of "newby's" getting into "your" sport all the time. Maybe you should take a look at your own signature block before you go flame some guy you don't even know.
Call me crazy but in this day and age, I don't think I want to add my name to some potential government list of people who can't fly because they ordered over ten lbs of black powder.

In every fish bowl, no matter how small (even if it's just an internet forum) there's a goldfish swimming around thinking that he's a shark.

I'm out!

[Don McDowell]

Well as I said , there is/was no sarcasm intended.
You were the one that made the claim twice in one post that you couldn't find any blackpowder and didn't know anyplace to get any other than what your buddy might be able to find in Nebraska.
As to your statement about "and I'm sure that you get tired of "newby's" getting into "your" sport all the time." It's just flat wrong.
Next time you see Mr. Dupree tell him I said hello.

[nwellons]

I was having a hard time finding BP in Georgia until I discovered the local Bass Pro Shops store is stocking Goex. Got two cans of FFG about 3 weeks ago for my .42 Berdan and .43 Egyptian rifles.

[stubshaft]

Can't get it in Hawaii either. I have only 3 lbs of 3F left and have taken to using it as a priming charge under T7 in my 50 flintlock. If I could get it, it would be all that I shoot.

[Patman]

roaddog1m... I'm not looking down on anyone who wants to experiment with a sub, my decision on shooting only the real stuff was based entirely on what I witnessed when my friend pulled the trigger on his. Tears can ruin a fella don't ya know?

[The Double D]

South Dakota....how far are you from Miles City Montana? There is a GOEX distributor there.

If you root around on the Hodgdon website long enough you might find my picture with the Kudu I took in South Africa using 777. It shoots good and gives plenty of energy. I wouldn't put another grain of it in a brass case or rifle I own ever again.

T-7 contains potassium perchlorate, the same stuff that is in Corrosive primers, that we all avoid.

That stuff eats brass. Here is my brass that shot nothing but T-7. This is Martini brass, $5 a case when I bought it. Babied that brass. Kept it cleaned and shiney polished. Put it away in storage for 2 years while I was overseas. When I took it out this is what it looked like.

http://www.fototime.com/449FDA913BB8049/standard.jpg

Sorry for sharing my experience with you since you didn't ask.

Bad habit, after almost forty years shooting the various popular shooting competitions of the day, reloading thousands a of rounds, 32 years in law enforcement, 16 years on the street, tons of fights-always finished 2nd, nobody finished first in those things-, being shot at, stabbed-ain't true body armor won't stop a knife, firing 5 shots at a guy who was shooting at me-glad now I missed- I am always willing to share my experiences and seek out and listen to those who know more than me.

[semtav]

This sport is supposed to be about having fun, trying new ( to you) things and learning.
If one only learns by listening to others advice online, he really has no knoiwledge basis to advance.
Like the 45-120 prospects that jump on here all exited, only to be shot down as idiots, by the more experienced, so go the BP sub and SP users.
I think you should get out there and try it all, and develop your own opinion.

I'm fortunate to live and shoot in an area where nothing is sacred. Bring what you got and shoot it. How you do will dictate how good it is.

I started with smokeless and it only took me 6 months to Develop a liking for BP only.
Never tried BP sub, cause I figured it would be like kissing your sister, close but no cookies.

Have fun shooting the triple seven. When you get to the BP part, you can look back and know why its not recommended by the experts instead of just wondering.

[roaddog1m]

Semtav, Thanks, I knew nothing about 777 but tried some loads and posted the results. I didn't ask for any advice, just letting people know what my findings were. I got flamed by one of the big fish in the fish bowl and decided not to converse with that particular individual any longer.
I will say that after seeing what it will do to my brass alone, I'll be cutting back on the 777 and cleaning the heck out of the brass I used to shoot the stuff.
I do like to research stuff before jumping in so I sat in the back ground and just read other peoples posts for a while before really commenting much. I can't say that I was greeted by the welcome wagon.
The day I showed up to boot camp, there was a guy there who had long hair, tatoo's and a leather biker jacket. He looked pretty intimidating. After about the 1st day, we all lost our clothes, hair and our individuality. We had to all shower together and that's where I discovered that he was just a fat guy with some junky tats and an under developed manhood. Since then, I don't get very intimidated by the big fish in the small pond.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Roaddog - As a brother LEO(retired) of 30 yrs my story is pretty much the same as yours. Although never did have to kill anyone in the line of duty. Everything else is about the same. Been beat up, beat on, stabbed(through the top of the foot of all places, hurt like ****!), shot at, at least a half dozen times (one time by a guy hiding in the woods line with a bow/arrow) , shot with a double load of 7 1/2 from a sawed off double barrel 12. Should have been dead at least a dozen times I know of, 3 horrendous car wrecks, delivered two babies, even did CPR that actually worked twice. You get the story cos your still there. I also refuse to be talked down to and will respond in kind when provoked. In the same breath I will treat with respect anyone who responds with respect. I've been called down by a moderator and even the forum owner/administrator? 45Nut for calling out a few who seem to think it's their calling to belittle others posting's. My reasoning is if we tolerate those people it diminishes the experience and enjoyment of this forum for all. I have no qualm taking those to task that insist on being rude and demeaning where most will not. Most on this forum are good folks who share willingly their experiences and knowledge, expecting nothing in return. I respect these people greatly and value them and their knowledge. Those that seem unable to have a decent and/or positve attitude are simply put on my ignore list. Some have an obvious dislike for LEO's in general. This should not be an unfamiliar experience for either of us,or the other LEO"s on this forum. It's how we handle ourselves that is important. Pls continue your postings with the knowlege that the wise guys are in the minority. Those that know will see them as they are and us for what we are and represent.
Best of luck to you,
:wink:
Mike

[BSkerj]

Roaddog, I guess I will put my .02 worth in . I have just ordered a Shiloh Sharps from Big Timber and have 2 yrs to wait. I have been reading everything, including visiting different sites. Like you , I am just learning about BP and what brought me to this thread was you using 777, not the fact that you could not find BP. I wanted to know your opinion on it, so for what it is worth thanks for your input. Even though you may not have 1000's of posts you brought some info that others wanted to know. That is the main reason that I visit this and other sites like it. The knowledge is tremendous and you, as well as Don, have added to mine.

[roaddog1m]

Wow, thanks guys! I'm out working and decided to find some internet signal and see what's going on out there. It's been pretty quiet on the rez so far tonight but in about a 1/2 hour all h3ll will break loose I'm sure.

If all you can get are the substitutes, I've tried pyrodex and 777 both. In my opinion, 777 is better of the two but it sounds like it's pretty hard on brass. I suppose a person has to scrub the heck out of everything when you get done with it.

Bskerj, you sound like the kind of guy who knows what he wants and is willing to pay for it and wait if necessary. You might want to just search out about a case of the black stuff and stock pile ahead of time.

I've always been a "run and gun" kind of shooter. I have shot mostly IPSC, high power and tactical matches. Mainly though, I just like shooting! There's a group of guys not far from here who shoot some BP long range stuff so I'm going to get into it a little. I picked up a Navy Arms Rolling Block with a Shilen heavy round barrel. Its a lot of fun to shoot and I'm already hooked! Doubt if I'll win anything but I'm sure I'm going to learn a lot! I think I'm going to take someones advice for now (till I get my BP) and just go back to Varget. It's clean and easy to load. Lots of fun and 42.5gr. is a relatively light load that seems pretty accurate. (I have a butt ton of Varget)
Well, I better get off here and go top off my tank before the fun starts!
Thanks for the positive comments guys!!!
Tom

[StrawHat]

I have looked at 777 and Trail Boss as being reincarnations of what used to be called "bulk smokeless" or "semi smokeless" and as such want to try them to see what they have to offer. First time I have heard or considered the corrosiveness of 777. Thanks to the poster who brought that to my attention. Now I need to research and find some of the solutions to treating that problem.

I still like and use black powder but some of my firearms won't tolerate it.

[bob208]

if you read the books the bulk and smmi smokeless was very hard on barrels. ned roberts talks about washing out a barrel in a few months.it was a 32-40.

real black is as close as the little brown truck.

[The Double D]

Actually T-7 shoots quite well, it is an accurate powder and delivers good accuracy. I started using it in 2001 or 2002 the year it came out. It really got some rave reviews when it come out

The first thing that was learned about it was the infamous crud ring and how to deal with it.. This was a hard fouling ring the showed up in the throat. I had to use steel wool wrapped around a bore brush to get it out. It was a very hard gritty fouling and showed up after the gun was cleaned. Others were reporting it also. It was discovered that the ring was minimized by using smokeless powder bullet lubes instead of black powder lubes.

All the substitutes have potassium perchlorate in them---I think the exception is APP.

I have seen the same decomposition in brass back in the old day with corrosive primed ammunition. It was covered in college and was explained as the Potassium perchlorate residue attacking and breaking down the metal used to alloy copper into cartridge brass--I believed it is the zinc in the alloy that is attacked. This is not something unique to T-7 . I had some 45/70 cases that were also destroyed this way that had only shoot Pyrodex.

I have tried the subs. But once I found and figured out how to get black powder I moved on and never looked back.

Good luck with you tests.

[roaddog1m]

I had twenty rounds loaded up with 777 and we were in a blizzard warning so I decided to get out and shoot em up before the weather got bad. It was 12 degrees and the wind was picking up pretty good which lead to some flyers. I had the 1st batch loaded with 50grains and this batch was loaded up to 52.5 grains. I used a mix of 70% bees wax and 30% olive oil for bullet lube. The interesting thing about it was I didn't gain any speed with the added 2.5 grains of 777 (1425fps.) I shot at 100yrds, off hand and I was impressed with the accuracy. I had a few flyers but out of the 15 rounds I shot on paper, most were in a four inch group. Recoil was pretty mild and clean up was fast again. I ran a patch of hot soapy water through it followed by some dry patches. When it looked like they were clean, I ran my bore snake through it. I soaked the brass in a mix of hot water, Dawn and white vinager. I should be getting my BP pretty soon so I'm going back to the Varget until I get it.

I posted this just to let people know what my results were. So please, no hate mail or death threats.

Tom

[Chris Smith]

I might have overlooked it but did you have to use magnum primers? Sounds like it works pretty good for you, I might should invest in a pound to try in my toys.

[roaddog1m]

Sorry, no I just used large rifle primers. It was a pretty moderate load with no signs of high pressure. I used cards cut from a box of saltine crackers that measure .030 exactly. I used a 45ACP empty and rubber mallet to cut the cards out. It worked best to use my deburring tool on the outside to sharpen it a bit. I used a 45-70 case that I had drilled out the flashhole to nearly the same diameter as the primer pocket to cut the boolits out of the lube. I ground the point off of a 16d nail and used it to push the boolit out of the case each time. You might have to tweak the "cookie cutter" brass a bit to make it fit just right over the boolit with out being too tight or loose. If you're interested in hearing how I did that to mine, just PM me. I might have found a relatively easy way to do it.

Also, remember not to compress 777 or leave any air space. It's really not that hard to do with this load since pouring it through a drop tube (made from an aluminum arrow shaft) and then tapping a couple of times, it's the perfect height in the case so as to allow the .030 wad and light compression.

Again, it seems to be a very accurate load and I haven't even started tweaking my boolit alloy. Just using lino right now. Zero leading and after running a soapy patch followed by dry ones and bore snake, my bore was shiny as a new barrel!

What I have done is segregate the brass that I used to test 777 and those will be used only for 777. That way, I can track degradation of the brass.
Again, I soaked them afterward in hot water, Dawn and white vinegar.


I wondered why there wasn't more info posted about people using/testing 777, but after getting flamed, now I know why they don't do that. lol It's like if you admit that you tried/tested it, you all the sudden voted for Obama and changed gender. I thought for a while I had accidentally logged on to "blackpowderonly.com" after verifying that I was still on the correct forum, I thought maybe I was in a time warp and back in 4th grade and an 6th grader was wanting to fight me because my lunch box wasn't as cool as his.
Fun testing things and posting results and now I seemed to clear the thread of bullies after only a couple of verbal assaults. ahhhhh, life is good!

[Chris Smith]

I got some of that first few post too. And all I did was name my rifle. Some folks. I have a 45 cal. wad punch that I bought from Dixie Gun Works several years ago. I want to try the powder in question in my trapdoor and a 71/84 Mauser I have. Most of my bullets are cast from wheelweights. I ride my bicycle a lot and find PLENTY on the side of the road.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I tend to stay away from the subs, even living in arrid Wyoming I have seen a fine fine Snover Metford rifled barrel ruined using subs, even when and a good cleaning was given to the barrel before my friend put it up for the winter. We were all learning back then, after that we all stuck to straight BP.

My friend was sick when he saw his barrel in March pulling it out to get ready for the season, and found deep pits in it from the Pyrodex.

Actually I think a fella would get more response over on the Single shot Forum, as they shoot smokless most of them. And this semi-smokless stuff subs while not BP they are not Smokless either. Actually they are worse then either in their ability to attack ones brass and barrel.

BP loads like softer alloys, where again smokless one tends to get along better with harder stuff like wheelweights. Nothing is etched in stone of course.

KW
The Lunger

[gunplumber]

i tried 777 in my ml a couple years ago and on the first shot found out its quite a bit hotter than bp, i guess the label says to reduce starting loads by 15% or so. the accuarcy wasnt there for me like it was with bp so i never used it again. after that i found powder inc and started getting black shipped to my house with no hassle.

[roaddog1m]

Yep, I haven't really heard a good story about a sub yet. I have had good luck so far but don't feel like I want to push my luck. Of course, my barrel isn't an original, it's a Shilen, so it will most likely take a little bit more abuse than an original would have and they make new barrels every day for that matter. One of the things I learned shooting wildcats was that barrels have a gas tank and when it's empty, you get a new one. Life is short and I don't plan to take any of this stuff with me when I go. I'm just having fun shooting every thing including IPSC, 3gun, Tactical and archery 3D. Now I'm gearing up to start shooting cowboy long range. I'm not a gun snob like a some guys can be. If all we got is a Marlin .22, lets go shoot that thing! The guys I shoot with the most are tactical types and when they find out what my latest project is, they just stare at me blankly. Gun people though are a strange crowd. It's similar to the truck crowd where one guy has a Ford and the other a Chevy. I don't mind a fun little banter over rival weapons but snobs suck just like mean cops do! LoL
If my buddy don't get his butt busy and get me some BP, I'm calling the little brown truck myself!

[semtav]

I just ordered a case from Powder inc. cause my local dealer forgot to renew his BP license so now he has to go thru the whole process again. Their price was reasonable. Especially since you can mix and match a few different types. I know $3-500 is a lot to shell out, but you will eventually, so just as welll do it right off the bat, that way you will have a good supply of one lot #.


I don't think Don's origial reply to you was that out of line, he just tried to give you a direction to go if you want to buy a little quicker. He didn't say a bad word to you. Try asking for a reduced load for a 45-120 sometime

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Don's replies (plural) were condenscending. I've noticed that others are now chiming in with their experiences with BP substitutes w/o worrying that someone will demean or belittle their experience or efforts. I enjoy seeing a wider variety of experiences and I say this having no personal interest in black powder cartridges. No one should immediately chastise me because of my "lack of interest" or any other reason. Their is no room for someone who insists on " it's my way or the highway" regardless of their tenure on the forum. Good natured joking and horse play is fine, but to be challenged simply because you may be doing something another chooses not to partake in , is not. I believe in this concept as I also believe the silent majority of the forum members here do, as well.

Mike

[Don McDowell]

Don's replies (plural) were condenscending. I've noticed that others are now chiming in with their experiences with BP substitutes w/o worrying that someone will demean or belittle their experience or efforts. I enjoy seeing a wider variety of experiences and I say this having no personal interest in black powder cartridges. No one should immediately chastise me because of my "lack of interest" or any other reason. Their is no room for someone who insists on " it's my way or the highway" regardless of their tenure on the forum. Good natured joking and horse play is fine, but to be challenged simply because you may be doing something another chooses not to partake in , is not. I believe in this concept as I also believe the silent majority of the forum members here do, as well.

Mike

I'ld sure be thankful if you'ld care to point out anything in ANY of my posts that will back up your inflammatory statements.
If you have no interest in black powder cartridges, I have to wonder what in the samhell are you doing here besides trying to stir up trouble?

[The Double D]

Just remember what you type doesn't carry voice inflections or facial expressions. You may be commenting in good humor, if the other guy doesn't know it you could be read as sarcastic.

If you guys would stop picking at the scab and just share your experiences with the sub and where to find Blackpowder.

[Don McDowell]

Just remember what you type doesn't carry voice inflections or facial expressions. You may be commenting in good humor, if the other guy doesn't know it you could be read as sarcastic.

If you guys would stop picking at the scab and just share your experiences with the sub and where to find Blackpowder.

Did all that already, explained twice there was no flames, etc intended.
And pointed out the bit about the expense, fouling , brass killing tendancies of the stuff, and lack of accuracy, and that still apparently wasn't good enough for a couple of these twits.
Will also throw in that as well as I know the folks the OP is shooting around, if they haven't GIVEN him a pound or more of blackpowder to shoot, there's likely a problem that's showing up about as well or more clear than it's showing up here.

[The Double D]

Did all that already, explained twice there was no flames, etc intended.
And pointed out the bit about the expense, fouling , brass killing tendancies of the stuff, and lack of accuracy, and that still apparently wasn't good enough for a couple of these twits.
Will also throw in that as well as I know the folks the OP is shooting around, if they haven't GIVEN him a pound or more of blackpowder to shoot, there's likely a problem that's showing up about as well or more clear than it's showing up here.

Actually Don up to this post I was on your side.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Double D,

Thanks for the pictures of that brass, man what a bummer for your 577. Like I related in my other post, The Snover barrel my friend had on his shiloh, it was a 45-90 shot very well, he had it set up so could switch back and forth from his original 40-65 barrel to the 90. Trying to make 2 rifles out of one. The Snover shot very well and clean up was a breeze with the Metford rifling, also fouling issues were not as bad. The Pyrodex sure did a number on it.

KW
The Lunger

PS I have some Norma Cases that are going on their 12th year of use, with straight BP only ever used in them, I lose one now and then to cracking even though I anneal now after every firing they usually crack about 1/3 of the way down the case. I know some have to have on order of 50 plus firings on them, some erosion of the Flash hole is evident but thats about it. Annealing will save you from neck cracks from work harding over the years.

While Don and I have of late not been playing well together I got to totaly agree with him, on the use of Subs, He is trying to prevent another Wooooe is Mee story about ruined brass-Barrels. When you tell folks not to use something based on personal knowledge, and they keep on, the Tolerance level does drop real fast. No flames intended towards anyone.

The Lunger

[Chris Smith]

I was given about a pound of "Clean Shot" once. It isn't on the market anymore or at least I don't think it is. It didnt work very well in my muzzleloader but shoots very small groups in my 11mm Mauser. It has the strangest odor and doesn't matter if I vacuum pack it and seal it from the light of day it will still form a hard clump in the cannister. I have to break it up with a hard wood dowel every time I use some. Might be why it is off the market. But it will really make a mess of expensive brass. Doesn't seem to have any ill effects on the barrel that I can tell.

[roaddog1m]

Don,
the OP (me) shoots alone mostly at an LE gun range or at Goose Creek Tactical Range, where no one shoots or has even seen a rolling block but me. (mostly all AR/M4 guys, LE, Civilian Contractors) There is over a foot of snow on the ground and I'm thinking that I'm one of the few people who even goes out and shoots this time of year around here, do to wind chills and shoveling snow to find brass (except with the roller). I was hoping to spend a little time experimenting alone before I show up around a bunch of guys who know a lot more than I do. I don't have to win but don't want to look like a "twit" out there.
Which brings me to the next subject. The calling of names. You seem like a mature and knowledgeable guy. I didn't really expect that you would be a name caller. It seems beneath you and quit frankly surprised me and I'm sure it will embarrass you when you sober up and read your comment. I appreciate your help Don but lets just keep this thread to those people who are interested to know about 777 or people who feel sorry for me and want to send me BP, food or just plain old cash.
Tom

[45nut]

Enough already! This thread ought to be stickied as a bad example !! Jeeze folks!