Did someone mention German weapons?

[Mike Venturino]

Somebody mentioned German weapons so here goes...... P38, FN P35, and Luger and MP40. All 9mm of course.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/ForPhotobucket010.jpg

Rifles - K98k, Czech VZ 24 sniper with unmarked scope, K98k/zf41, and K43 with ZF4 scope. All 8mm of course

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/ForPhotobucket006.jpg

And the grand finale, the MP44 my wife bought for me in 2010. Bless her heart! Caliber is 7.92x33mm.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/photobucket007.jpg

I'm missing a G33/40 but someday......

Mike V.

[arjacobson]

Nice!!. My uncle got a beretta?? Model 22? From ww2. He said he took it off a geman policeman after the russians liberated the pow camp he was in.. Supposed to have a luger squirreled away also...

[PAT303]

Now your showing off!!.The scope on your VZ 24 is a Kar Kahles 6x42.Does it have the german recticle?,flat top post with horizontal wire?. Pat

[MtGun44]

OK you are going to HAVE TO write a big article on the first assault rifle, and please
include a lot of detail pix of the guts - I am very curious how that thing worked. Seems like
I read that it was the first roller locked delayed blowback design and that the H&K G3
and ilk are descendants. OTOH, it seems like there were 2 or even 3 similar models
being developed at that time and I may have it all crossed up.

Neat pix. What a heck of a present! Add that to the Lone Star RB and you have a
truly amazing wife with impeccible taste!

Bill

[Hardcast416taylor]

Mike, are you shooting at Bugs Bunny with the Stg44 in the picture? You have your Elmer Fudd hat on, so I just wondered.:groner: Nice pictures of the collection, both German and Jap.Robert

[Three44s]

Ya VOLT!

I taught I taw a bunny wabbit in there making an escape!

At first blush I taught .......... I mean .......... thought I saw a G3 there for a breif moment ...... I have an HK 91 so it was a natural mistake.

Three 44s

[EMC45]

I believe the hat is a Stormy Kromer? My budy (MGD45) called me the other day and wanted me to look at a P38. It was found on some property of a friend's. It was a AC44 and was in good shape! Had a loaded mag in it too:shock:

[45-70 Chevroner]

Show Off!!! But I really like your guns though. Keep it up Mike!!

[Jack Stanley]

That's a real nice looking roundup Mike . I've never seen a VZ sniper so ya made my day , as high as the scope is above the stock it looks like it would have been about like the Russian for getting a "chin-weld" while shooting it .

The MP44 is an original ?

Looks like you've got the wind screen up at the firing line .... rabbits oughta be flying in all the wind huh?

Jack

[NickSS]

Neat rifle you are shooting. I shot one of them several years ago in a MG shoot in Oregon they are fun. You will also need a Polish Radom 98 Mauser as the Germans used them too. In fact they used just about everything that would shoot including many Soviet rifles and sub machineguns. I worked with a guy that was in the German army on the eastern front and he told me that whenever he could get his hands on a PPSH 41 he used it as he loved those 71 round drum magazines. By the way he was wounded six times on the eastern front and only excaped being captured by the Russians by being so shot up that the evacuated him west and the hospital he was in was captured by the British.

[Von Dingo]

Mike,

Your toys make me all warm inside. I hope you realize Yvonne (sp?) is one of the greatest women on the planet. Then again, maybe you're that great?

Enjoy your stay in the promised land sir.

[Chris Smith]

I've shot a MP-40 before and it was quite a bit of fun. I could see myself wrecking a paycheck pretty quick. Nice collection!

[PAT303]

Mike,does Yvonne have a sister?. Pat

[Mike Venturino]

Pat303: Yes she does but they are about as alike as night and day.

Someone asked if the MP44 is original. It is. It was made by Erma and runs like a top. After shooting it for a bit I can see why it was so revolutionary.

Maybe when I can get around to it I can show my British and Russian WW2 guns. I've bought a slug of them too. Not to mention American ones too.

By the way, I'm far from rich and in fact didn't invest a single penny more in my guns than was already in them. I just sold off stuff that hadn't been fired in up to 10 years and reinvested the money.

Mike V.

[Combat Diver]

Mike,

Very nice collection. I keep having to leave my collection behind in Iraq. Here's a few MP44s that I had in 03-04' along with 60 rds of East German 7.92x33. I did do one write up for Bravo Company USA back then. Your collection is missing a MG34 and MG42. Never did find any MG34s over here but numberous post war versions of MG42 here known as the MG3 in 7.62x51.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Persian_29-98_MP44s_M4A1.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MP_44_052.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/9809IMAG0005_50_.JPG

CD

[PAT303]

I can't believe the amount of WW2 rifles around. Pat

[1Shirt]

Nice collection Mike. Sorry that you didn't make it to Reno for SCI. When you get around to it would sure like to see you wring out the 3 different Mosins with cast.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[MakeMineA10mm]

I wonder if that's the same MP-44 I loaded ammo for and shot back in the 80s?? They do get around. It was an Erma Werke also...

Mike - Just in case you didn't see it - GRAFS and Sons has Prvi Partisan primed brass cases on sale for the 7.92x33 Kurz EXTREMELY CHEAP! $21/100. I bought 500, just in case I ever gain access to one of those wonderful rifles again.

BTW, for those who have not had the good fortune to fire one, with the exception of how much they weigh, the MP44 and it's other itterations are about the last word (as well as the first) in Assault Rifles. I could touch off a three round burst and keep the barrel dead horizontal and the front sight inside a man-sized target at 100 yards. The timing of the cyclic rate combined with the weight was such that these models just kind-of stayed on target as the bullets chugged out the muzzle... Best-targeting full-auto gun I ever fired, but I'd hate to have to carry one for long distances or for a long time... :mrgreen:

[CLAYPOOL]

MIke if you write the artical about the M.G.'s with roller locking internals, don't forget to check out the CZ - 52's roller set up. A VERY strong hand gun. I wish I had bought a few more when I sold them a few years back. They were cheaper then. I also shoud have got some ot those 9 MM barrels to use in them too. They were designed to use Sub gun ammo at then a blistering vel. that the ammo was loaded too. It is hot.
SEE YUW
CLAYPOOL

[MakeMineA10mm]

It's easy to get confused, especially when these rifles are not abundant or seen here much, but the MP43, MP44, StG44, and their predecesors (MKb42) were not roller-locked. There was ONE test variant that was going into production as the war ended that was roller-locked, but it took the developers escaping to Spain to continue on their efforts, leading to the CETME as the first real roller-locked, mass-produced service rifle. I've made this mistake myself, but thinking back on the MP44 I worked on making ammo for back in the 80s, it was not roller-locked.

[MtGun44]

OK, you are right that these are rare rifles, I have NEVER seen one in person.

So they are a rotary bolt (Garand) or a tilting block (FAL) type of action - or something
else altogether?

Bill

[Combat Diver]

The MP44 used a gas system with a long stroke piston, and the bolt is tipped down to lock into the receiver. The gun is fired from a closed bolt, if memory serves correctly. As far as controlablity, gun cycles around 450-500 rds a minute. Very controlable after firing a M4A1 with its 700-750 rpm. I did know of another 10 MP44s in Iraq in 03-04' period besides the two I had. Hornady also loads 7.92x33mm as factory ammo with a 125 JHP (#HRN80491) also availble from Grafs.

CD

[MtGun44]

CD,

First let me Thank You very much for choosing to put your life at risk for our
country. We lost my USMC nephew in Afghanistan and understand how truly dangerous
it can be over there. Please stay safe. Another relative over there now.

As to the MP44 info, thanks very much. I knew that it was a serious innovation
when it came out, good German engineering. The tail drop type lock may have
been copied from them by the FN49 designer, which is the first of that sort of
lockup (FAL followed it, of course) that I am aware of. SKS follows this method
of locking, too.

Sounds like you get to do some really interesting testing in those bad parts
of the world. Hope the enjoyment somewhat offsets the risk and stress.

Take care and be safe, which I understand is actually impossible.

Bill

[MakeMineA10mm]

Sorry for the delay MG44, but Combat Diver got you covered.

Yes, long-stroke gas piston with tipping bolt. The cyclic rate is such that as the bolt closes from firing the previous shot, the muzzle is just hitting the sight-plane again for the next shot. Awesome stuff. If I were a weapon designer, I'd go for lighter weight, but I'd be sure to balance the recoil (from whatever operating system is used), weight of the rifle, and the cyclic rate to achieve the same / very similar arrangement.

[Von Dingo]

My understanding is the STG-44 and the Ultimax are the only platforms that balance the rate of fire, recoil, and and locking in such a way that the muzzle doesn't elevate drastically during recoil. There is a push on your shoulder, and the weapon can be very effectively used on full auto, which is the ultimate goal when faced with charging goblins en mass.

Unfortunately, this concept hasn't been embraced by designers of the platforms that are in the hands of those charged with being at the tip of the spear. Luckily for them, it wasn't grasped by Mr. Kalashnikov either.

Those are two of the four platforms on my bucket list.

[MtGun44]

Very interesting. The quantity of full auto that I have shot is severely limited, so while
it sounds like a perfect solution, I have no real experience. I'll take your word for it.

Bill

[Von Dingo]

Very interesting. The quantity of full auto that I have shot is severely limited, so while
it sounds like a perfect solution, I have no real experience. I'll take your word for it.

Bill

Please don't take that as the quote of an expert. I have limited experience with full auto weapons (four types) as well.

[Combat Diver]

500 rpm is about optuim for a ground full auto as it is very controllable. After years of training its easy for me to squeeze off 2-3 round bursts off my M4A1 on full auto (not burst, but auto). Only time I use full auto now days is on belt fed machine guns firing longer bursts of 5-9 rds. Its still a nice to have option if needed on a assualt rifle. Luckily never needed to flip the switch all the way around in actual use, only on the range.

CD

[Von Dingo]

500 rpm is about optuim for a ground full auto as it is very controllable. After years of training its easy for me to squeeze off 2-3 round bursts off my M4A1 on full auto (not burst, but auto). Only time I use full auto now days is on belt fed machine guns firing longer bursts of 5-9 rds. Its still a nice to have option if needed on a assualt rifle. Luckily never needed to flip the switch all the way around in actual use, only on the range.

CD

It's too bad you didn't have more rounds for the STG-44's you liberated (and even worse that they will be destroyed, they looked pretty nice). I'd really like to hear of side by side comparisons, first hand.

I never handled FA M-16 variants, and had limited expience with the burst. But determined that aimed semi auto would be the rule of the day if push came to shove.

[MakeMineA10mm]

My understanding is the STG-44 and the Ultimax are the only platforms that balance the rate of fire, recoil, and and locking in such a way that the muzzle doesn't elevate drastically during recoil. There is a push on your shoulder, and the weapon can be very effectively used on full auto, which is the ultimate goal when faced with charging goblins en mass.

Unfortunately, this concept hasn't been embraced by designers of the platforms that are in the hands of those charged with being at the tip of the spear. Luckily for them, it wasn't grasped by Mr. Kalashnikov either.

Those are two of the four platforms on my bucket list.

Yes, now that you mention that, I remember reading that about the Ultimax. I've never shot an Ultimax, but they sounded very interesting and well thought-out.

Another aspect, which Combat Diver has alluded to, is that the purpose or intended use of the weapon plays into. For example, the BAR, if fired as a support/base-of-fire weapon off it's bi-pod is extremely controllable in the prone. I was able to keep all three rounds of a burst on a 55-gal drum at 200 yards with an original. But, take the bi-pod off and used as an assault weapon, as it was used during most of WWII, the bi-pod was so much unnecessary extra weight and most guys ditched it. In that condition, not as accurate, though still probably sufficient for the purpose at hand.

I was lucky as a young man. My dad was friends with a MG collector who had about 180 different MGs, and my best friend in HS had a father who was a master machinist, tool-and-die maker, and firearms enthusiast. When the MG collector asked if we knew anyone who could help him repair and make ammo for many of his MGs, I put them together and was basically "apprenticed" by my friend's dad to do a lot of the work at his direction. I've done everything from rebuilding and making & fitting a couple broken parts for a Jap Type 11 LMG to converting and loading a few hundred rounds of 7.92 Kurz for the MP44 (back when there was no Prvi Partisan brass available, unfortunately...).

I got to shoot all kinds of MGs he owned from German WWI Maxims on the two-wheeled carts with shield to an M-16 with a 4-digit serial number from the early 60s. My dad's favorite was the SchnellFeuerPistole (full-auto detach-mag Broomhandle). The Sudanese AR-10 was AWFUL on full auto. First round would hit the target, second round would go about three feet over the target and the third round would go into the next county... We then also got connected with the machinegun shoots that were going on at Camp Atterbury in the 80s. Went there four or five times at least. Got to shoot even more different weapons there. The best part was, as opposed to nowadays at Knob Creek, back then, you could shoot all the weapons for free, if you brought your own ammo for it... :grin: Got to shoot most of the modern weapons there.

(Yes, I had a GREAT time for a couple years there, and am very thankful for that once-in-a-lifetime experience.)

Even still with all of that experience, I don't consider myself an expert. Experienced, yes. Expert, no.

You've got my interest piqued. What are your four grail platforms??

[nicholst55]

I had the opportunity to meet Hamilton Bowen and fire his MP40 last spring. We ran out of ammo and time, unfortunately!

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g120/nicholst55/2010-04-30164008-2.jpg

My first time firing an MP40; I've fired MP5s, Stens, M16s and AKs before, but I really enjoyed the MP40.

Maybe someday when I'm rich and famous... 8-)

[Combat Diver]

It's too bad you didn't have more rounds for the STG-44's you liberated (and even worse that they will be destroyed, they looked pretty nice). I'd really like to hear of side by side comparisons, first hand.




I wrote an article for BCM back in the beginning of 04' on the comparison between the MP44 and M4A1. Once I get my new hard drive for my laptop in the room I'll post it in new thread here.

Oh boy do I love the MP40! This one is property of the US Army in the foreign weapons pool of 5th SFGA.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MP40.jpg

CD

[MtGun44]

Of the relatively few FA weapons that I have used the MP40 was absolutely THE most
usable and controllable of the lot, with the Uzi not far behind.

Bill

[Mike Venturino]

The guys above with the MP40s are right. This ....

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/5-28-08144LargeWebview.jpg

Causes this......

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/5-28-08147LargeWebview-1.jpg

Pure joy!

Mike V.

[Jack Stanley]

Ya know , my little brother got stuck in a quad fifty gun bucket once . Sure , he was over six feet tall and two hundred thirty pounds , but what had him stuck was .............. a smile just like that after firing the quad !

Jack

[doubs43]

MP-40 story as told to me by a vet. My neighbor when I was a teen was a Glider Infantry trooper, 194th Regiment, 17th Airborne Div., during WW2. They were thrown into the Bulge for the counter-offensive and he picked up an MP-40 with the thought of using it.... until he considered that the sound of it would attract unwanted "friendly" fire. He then thought about sending it home but realized it wasn't legal to own so he threw it away.

JS, when I was stationed at Osan AB in Korea, the outer perimeter was ringed with truck-mounted quad 50's manned by ROKs. They had three sided emplacements that they backed the trucks into and firing stakes at intervals stretching into the distance. I would have loved to see one fire.

[Uncle45Auto]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/45Auto/GermanGuns/Mvc-688x.jpg

A single set trigger and in .22 short. A German weapon that's cheap to shoot!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/45Auto/helmets/Mvc-433f.jpg

Something nice to impress the fraulines at the range.

[MakeMineA10mm]

My understanding is the STG-44 and the Ultimax are the only platforms that balance the rate of fire, recoil, and and locking in such a way that the muzzle doesn't elevate drastically during recoil. There is a push on your shoulder, and the weapon can be very effectively used on full auto, which is the ultimate goal when faced with charging goblins en mass.

Unfortunately, this concept hasn't been embraced by designers of the platforms that are in the hands of those charged with being at the tip of the spear. Luckily for them, it wasn't grasped by Mr. Kalashnikov either.

Those are two of the four platforms on my bucket list.

Von Dingo - I just "found" another one: the Ferfrans SOAR. It was developed for the Philippines Defense Forces. They were also concerned with barrel life, so they put on a heavier "MG-weight" barrel, which of course also assists with recoil mitigation, putting more weight on the rifle as well as moving the rifle's Center of Gravity forward. They use a mechanical rate reducer in the trigger mechanism in addition to a heavier buffer. I got to watch someone shoot it, and I'd say it ran in the 550-600rpm range and was very controllable. (Whole 30-rd mags on full-auto with no appreciable muzzle rise.)

Link: http://www.ferfrans.net/p_soar.htm

[NoDakJak]

Doubs43 When I was at Kunsan in 1970 the South Koreans had a bunch of WWII Halftracks with quad fifties mounted on them that were dug in around the base for both anti-aircraft and ground use. They were both needed and active as the taxi ways and runways ran out into the bay and the base was surrounded on three sides with a North Korean Resettlement village.
In 1969 I was stationed at Itazuke AFB and as the base was closing I went TDY to the Base Armory as a small arms repairman and assistant instructor. I got to shoot the M2 Carbine on full auto quite a bit. It was a climbing SOB and the best way that I found was to fire it prone and really clamp onto it. No one on the base could come close to my scores but when we finally recieved the early model M-16s things changed. Almost anyone that was serious could equal or better those scores with the M-16. I provided demonstrations to several new classes by holding it out and firing it one handed. I had seen pictures of it being done and incorporated it into my orientation class. I certainly don't recommend that as a normal practice but at the time most of our classes were office types that had very limited small arms experience and seeing this seemed to give them confidence that they could maybe fire this weapon effectively.
I really regret that that I never got to fire the BAR or Thompson. Neil

[Multigunner]

A friend found a NAZI marked P-35 when settling his deceased father in laws estate.

The CZ52 roller lock design is very strong, but there are issues with the barrel lump having a crosswise cut that can weaken the chamber section. It seems to be a matter of individual barrels rather than endemic to the breed.

[454PB]

A friend found a NAZI marked P-35 when settling his deceased father in laws estate.

So what's it worth?

I inherited one from my Dad.

[Multigunner]

So what's it worth?

I inherited one from my Dad.

Much depends on condition. This example was a bit beat up, likely battle damage, slight pitting of the bore, a good deal of holster wear, and one original grip panel (looked like Bakelite)was broken and missing a large chunk, both panels showed a lot of wear.
This was definitely a hard used combat weapon. Still serviceable, but past its prime.
All the proper acceptance stamps were present.
I was figuring on offering 400 USD and would have gone 450 but they may sell for much more than that in better condition.

[Combat Diver]

Depends also on which Nazi marked P-35 as there were two. The Belgium P-35(b) Hi Power and P-35(p) Polish Radom Vis 35. I've got a Nazi proofed Radom made by Steyr and is a late war version.

CD

[txpete]

Doubs43 When I was at Kunsan in 1970 the South Koreans had a bunch of WWII Halftracks with quad fifties mounted on them that were dug in around the base for both anti-aircraft and ground use. They were both needed and active as the taxi ways and runways ran out into the bay and the base was surrounded on three sides with a North Korean Resettlement village.
In 1969 I was stationed at Itazuke AFB and as the base was closing I went TDY to the Base Armory as a small arms repairman and assistant instructor. I got to shoot the M2 Carbine on full auto quite a bit. It was a climbing SOB and the best way that I found was to fire it prone and really clamp onto it. No one on the base could come close to my scores but when we finally recieved the early model M-16s things changed. Almost anyone that was serious could equal or better those scores with the M-16. I provided demonstrations to several new classes by holding it out and firing it one handed. I had seen pictures of it being done and incorporated it into my orientation class. I certainly don't recommend that as a normal practice but at the time most of our classes were office types that had very limited small arms experience and seeing this seemed to give them confidence that they could maybe fire this weapon effectively.
I really regret that that I never got to fire the BAR or Thompson. Neil

I got to fire a thompson full auto and it was a hoot.:D
BTW we still had grease guns in the 2nd cav (ACR) in the arms room 1981 went I left.