Watched an expert Friday with a single shot

[oldracer]

This past Friday was my day of the month to do range officer duty so I left the 45-70s and such at home. There was one Schuetzen shooter doing some practicing and I sat down and watched him for a bit. I was intrigued by the method he used to load each round and I had to go to another range so I never got a chance to quiz him about it. His method was to take a cast bullet and insert it into the chamber against the lands AND THEN insert the cartridge case which was already loaded with a compressed powder and wad load. He used a piece of dowel to insert the bullet first that had a slight depression for the base of the bullet to sit intoand the OD of the dowel appeared to be about the same as the shell case. This was not a 45-70 load but something like a 22 cal bullet that was very long.

Has anyone seen this method of loading and are there any advantages over just having a bullet in the case?

[Bullshop]

Its called breach seating and is likely potentially the most accurate method of loading a boolit. The reason is that there is no transition of the boolit through the throat and into the lands. The boolit is already past the throat and fully aligned in the barrel before the shot is fired.

[stubshaft]

That's how Pope and the other old timers loaded their rifles. It was the forerunner to todays benchrest and produced phenominal accuracy. Everytime I read a thread about the importance of crimping the boolit I think about this and chuckle to myself.

[montana_charlie]

...breech...

[Bullshop]

Some of the early Pope rifles went one further and loaded the boolit from the muzzle using a false muzzle.
Sorry I breached the code on the breech.

[waksupi]

I've seen quite a bit of this. Most of the breech seaters are of a specific length, to seat the bullet in exactly the same depth and position each time.

[John Boy]

Pope and the other Schuetzen gents, breech seated so the base of a tapered bullet extended 1/16" back into the chamber. It is the 2nd most accuracte way to chamber a round for concentricity and obturation. The No 1 method is using a false muzzle because when the bullet is chambered down the bore ... there are no 'fins' engraved on the base of the bullet from the rifling. Breech seating creates fins and these effect accuracy ... as does a fixed cartridge reload.

Bullets can be seated using a stick (not the best way to beat a bullet in), a breech seater tool and a plugged case. Pope, Hudson and the other top shooters used a breech seater. Pope made his own and Hudson used to buy from Pope, as did other Schuetzen shooters

[bigted]

all very interesting. i have to admit i have never heard of breech seating but the old pope method of false muzzle and rifling engraving from muzzle loading a projectile is something ive known about from a kid reading about pope and the other hot shooters of the day fasinated me for hours of daydreaming. cool to know that the art is still going.

[bigted]

[facinating]...srry charlie about the spelling. its good to have a grammer checker for accountability and proper conveyance of thought.

[NickSS]

I had a friend years ago who shot muzzle breach loaders all the time. He was in his 70s at the time and "could not see so well anymore" (today I sympathize with that statement). He had a rifle he made himself including the action which was like an old Civil War Josselyn action. It was a 38-55 and he only used one casing and reloaded it for every shot at the bench. I saw him shoot dozens of 20 shot targets at 200 yards over several years time with a globe front and rear tang sight. They were always the same, 20 shots into a group the size of a silver dollar. I used to tell him that I would like to have seen him shoot when he could see.

[mattbowen]

OK, This peaked my interest and I understand that you take the bullet and push it to the barrel until it is touching the lands and grove and then place the filled cartridge behind it. The questions that I have are one (what do you put into the case to keep the powder from decompressing and spilling into the barrel?), Two (how do you know the proper distance between the bullet and the is obtained and what is the proper distance?) and third, (can modern powder be used or just Black and Black substitutes?).

Thanks .

Matt

[Shooter]

OK, This peaked my interest and I understand that you take the bullet and push it to the barrel until it is touching the lands and grove and then place the filled cartridge behind it. The questions that I have are one (what do you put into the case to keep the powder from decompressing and spilling into the barrel?), Two (how do you know the proper distance between the bullet and the is obtained and what is the proper distance?) and third, (can modern powder be used or just Black and Black substitutes?).

Thanks .

Matt

1. I use 1/4 sheet of TP in my .405 and 45-70.
2. About 1/16" infront of the case mouth
3. Yes, I use Unique and others.

[mattbowen]

Shooter;

Thanks, I am going to have to try it, I am fascinated with this I love accuracy.

[Shooter]

Another plus is case life is extended. The primer pocket is the only wear item.
An old case with a piece of dowel inside will make your seater.

[Bulldogger]

The instructor at my NRA youth range on Thursday nights when I was 12 used to show up early and shoot from the range office out the window at the 300 yard berm with his Schutzen doing the same thing. He mentioned the 1/16" gap between boolit base and case mouth I still recall. He had a nifty little gadget that scissored as he pulled back a lever to put the boolit at the exact right position.

He was using a LEE loader, or equivalent, loading one at a time as we trickled in for NRA youth training and .22 practice in the 24 yard indoor range.

To tell you how times change at indoor ranges; when we were good, behaving and shooting as trained, the rangemaster would let us set down candles we scavenged after candlelight church services on the floor at the 25 yard mark, light them and have contests snuffing them with 22's. I still think of snuffing a candle (without scarring wax) as one of the two marks of a good shooter. Firece debates took place among all present, boys and Dad's, as to whether or not hitting the wick was worth more or less than shooting just above or next to the flame to snuff it without touching anything. The other hallmark of accuracy for us was being able to lop the heads off Queen Anne's lace plants in the field, 25 yard minimum. You had to shoot where you figured the top of the stem was, not being able to see it often on a full grown weed. Only one other brother was as good as Dad or me. All cheap 22's with iron sights, of course, back when Federal was $1 for two boxes of 50 on sale at K-Mart (you know, they used to sell ammunition, right, before Michael Moore?) and Dad would let us shoot two whole boxes on a Sunday afternoon with him.

[oldracer]

As I suspected, thanks everyone for the feed back.

[stubshaft]

There are additional articles about breech seating in the LASC notes, click on the index to all articles and see the cast bullets for beginners and experts by Joe Brennan

[TCLouis]

Folks forgot to mention that typical cases were marked so the case was oriented into the chamber the same every time.

[geargnasher]

Breech: Ordn. The rear part of the bore of a gun, esp. the opening and associated mechanism that permits insertion of a projectile.

Breach (br"ch), n.breach (br"ch)
1. the act or a result of breaking; break or rupture.
2. an infraction or violation, as of a law, trust, faith, or promise.
3. a gap made in a wall, fortification, line of soldiers, etc.; rift; fissure.

Gear

[Iowa Fox]

I've watched the guys and chatted with them. They get pretty proficient at breech seating their own bullets by feel. One comment to me was "if you seat one that feels different shoot it in the dirt" as it will always open the group.

[calaloo]

When breech seating bullets the bullet is pushed into the bore some distance ahead of the case mouth. That distance is one of the variables that must be determined to achieve accuracy. The bullet, if using smokeless powder, must be .100 to .200 larger than the bore. Usually the rear driving band is well engraved by the rifling for about half its length. The bullets are often tapered to ease seating and it doesn't hurt if the rifle is throated for breech seating. Some actions like the Stevens Model 44 1/2 which have a camming action when the block is closed can use a plugged case to seat the bullet. More often, however, a tool called a breech seater is used to gently push the bullet home. Anyone who is truly interested in this form of shooting would do well to visit the ASSRA or WSU web sites. ASSRA is mostly in the east and smokeless powder is the norm while WSU is mostly western and they like to burn charcoal.

[2Tite]

Calaloo, I think that's probably .001 or .002 rather than .100 or .200. A bullet 2/10ths of an inch over bore dia or groove dia might be a little hard to seat. A typo I know. I've seen you shoot.

[Lead pot]

Here is the breach seater I use. It is set up for the .40-70 ss but I have several different calibers set up for the tool.
The case is a load of compressed powder and filled up again with loose powder and a .023 card id flush with the case mouth held in with a slight roll crimp.
The bullet is a straight shank bullet that is .004 over bore diameter and the tool is adjustable so I can seat the bullet so It makes contact with the Case mouth so no gap is between the case mouth and the bullet base.
This procedure takes a lot of the variables way you might have with the bullet seated i a case.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_1186.jpg

[Lead pot]

I forgot to mention.
For a smokeless load and using a groove diameter GG bullet I charge the case with smokeless powder and use a cork or plug in the case mouth to carry it in the ammo box.
I seat the bullet past the lead and take the plug out of the case and insert the case with the muzzle slightly elevated.

[DHB]

OK, This peaked my interest and I understand that you take the bullet and push it to the barrel until it is touching the lands and grove and then place the filled cartridge behind it. The questions that I have are one (what do you put into the case to keep the powder from decompressing and spilling into the barrel?), Two (how do you know the proper distance between the bullet and the is obtained and what is the proper distance?) and third, (can modern powder be used or just Black and Black substitutes?).

Thanks .

Matt
1) I use a .095 cork wad cut to fill cartridge mouth set about 1/10 inch above the powder. Others use milk carton or a thick business card.
2) Some have the case surround the base of the bullet some 1/10 inch back.
3) I've used various smokeless. I don't like black. I hate to bathe with my weapon.
THERE ARE WARNINGS ABOUT RINGING YOUR CHAMBER. IT'S NEVER HAPPENED TO ME. I used to breech seat in a #2 Ballard NOT a strong action and NEVER had any problems. This does not mean you won't or will. There are many books on breech seating and lots of stuff on the web.
Good luck and let us know
Dennis

[Bret4207]

Lucian Cary wrote a series of fiction articles for the old Saturday Evening Post involving breech seating, false muzzles and the rest of Schuetzen style shooting. Shows you how far down our literary tastes have fallen! They were available in book form for some time. Many of them also appear in older Gun Digests, back before John Ambers sad demise.

Ned Roberts wrote 2 books regarding this style of shooting, "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle" and "The Breech Loading single Shot Rifle" IIRC the titles correctly. Ken Waters finished the 2nd book after Ned passed. Both are fantastic books. Another title is "Ned Roberts and the Schuetzen Rifle" which is a collection of Neds articles on the subject. All very valuable and good reading.

There are other books out there regarding Pope, Zischang, Schoyen and the other makers of fine quality Schuetzen match rifles. A very, very interesting part of our hobby.

[rhbrink]

Now were talking about something near and dear to my heart. I have a 32-40 that I plan on shooting some this year in some CBA matches. Looking my records over its been 12 years since I have shot that rifle. Been casting up boolits all winter, laying in primers and powder, just need some decent weather. Only been the second highest snow totals since the weather guessers been keeping records in my area. Soon maybe!

[craveman85]

im thinking of trying this with my 45-70 except i have a very steep throat angle (around 24 degrees) ive seen several places that they seat the bullet so the base is 1/16 in front of the case mouth. if loading bp wouldnt this create an air pocket which is something you really need to avoid?

[texasmac]

For those of you interested, following is an example of a very nice breech seater for a High Wall action. In this example the case is a .45-70.

Wayne

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/RealTexasMac/Browning188545-70breechseater.jpg

[Lead pot]

Wayne that looks like a tool made by Dan Weber of Co.

[texasmac]

Lead Pot,

You're close. It was made by Russ Weber of Colorado. ;>)
I'm sure you recognize it as the same tool you posted earlier, which you have setup for your 40-70 etc. By the way, the last time I checked with Russ he was still making them for $175.00 shipped. The price included fitting two of the shooter's fireformed cases to the seater. I understand he makes them for other actions as well. I acquired it with a Browning .45-70 BPCR I purchased for resale. I'm hanging on to the seater in case I decide to try breech seating.

Wayne

[Lead pot]

Wayne.
I have two. And I made several rams and cases for all calibers I shoot except the .44-90 BN and I'm working on it now.
I keep the one set up for the .40-70 Sharps and the other one I change around for the Brownings and the rest of the sharps.
I had him make the second tool so I could cam it to the left or right because the hammer and the scope of the sharps interfered with working the seater.

I see there is a considerable price increase for the tool since I got mine.

[nanuk]

I always thought this would be interesting to try for my Ruger in 270 with the CM PP'd up to size.

I could never think a workaround to make the corner.

[craveman85]

would probably be dangerous in a smokeless bottleneck case that is designed to have a certain charge with a certain amount of airspace. proceed with caution if you do this. and do the first test fire with a string on the trigger from 20 feet away. dont forget to check pressure signs on your cases.

[Lead pot]

I have never seen a .32-40 or any other bottle necked case damage a schuetzen rifle breach seated.

[craveman85]

yeah but what about a modern smokeless case where case volume has a bigger part on pressure.

[calaloo]

There are two .32-40 chamber designs. The one for breech seating is a straight taper. The one for fixed ammo maintains a straight neck.

[craveman85]

but how would it work in a .270?

[Lead pot]

I never seen a special chamber or case for breach seating a .32-40. The only .32-40 I'm aware of that has a long shouldered BN case neck is the Bullard.
The 33 Win chambered in a 85 I seen used with a breach seater.
The thing with any particular way of loading breach seating or fixed loads people screw up and load beyond the limits the action will with stand when they use a smokeless load in a vintage rifle or mess with a blk powder load that is short loaded and being dumb enough to put a wad or filler on top of blk powder.
It wont matter if the case is a straight wall, tapered or bottle neck you will have a problem. Especially a BN case with corn meal or cream of wheat.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Most artillery rounds were seated this way and when shot as an anti tank gun, got incredible accuracy.

[Doc Highwall]

You can breach seat any rifle that has a straight access to the chamber. You could even breach seat a Contender or Encore as long as you had a way of attaching the breach seater. It's only drawback is the time it takes to load but it was not meant to be fast only the most accurate.

[Shooter]

You can breach seat any rifle that has a straight access to the chamber. You could even breach seat a Contender or Encore as long as you had a way of attaching the breach seater.

No need to attach. Make your seater out of a dowel with a knob on the end. Whack it with the palm of your hand.

[texasmac]

No need to attach. Make your seater out of a dowel with a knob on the end. Whack it with the palm of your hand.

That's not a very precise way to breech seat bullets. The imprecise seating plus the distinct possibility of damaging or expanding the base will have a negative effect on accuracy. A better technique is to insert the bullet and then use a case with a tight fitting hardwood dowel to precisely seat it. The case rim ensures each bullet is seated to the same depth. If the caming action of the block is not sufficient to seat the bullet, then an extension can be attached to the case rim to hand seat the bullet. A very usable extension is an old screwdriver with the tip cut down to fit the primer hole. It can be silver soldered to the case or threaded to screw inside the tapped primer hole

Wayne

[Doc Highwall]

I agree with both of you but if I was going to breach seat for best accuracy I favor texasmac way with gentile insert on. A relation to this is smallbore shooting where you insert the cartridge as far as you can with your thumb and close the bolt slowly not with a slamming affect for best accuracy.

[Shooter]

I wasn't very clear, I ment the dowel was to go into a drilled case, so the rim or shoulder controls the depth.

[WildmanJack]

Today at the range I watched in fascination as a gentleman to my left loaded and shot a Schutzen. I watched as he placed a boolet into a neat brass gadget and then seated the boolet into the lands, then he took one case (1) only. He deprimed it, cleaned the primer pocket, re-primed it, then dropped a measured amount of powder ( smokeless) into the case. He then very slightly belled the mouth of the case and inserted it into the rifle. He then placed that boolet into a very, very, small group at 100 yds. I was not only impressed with his accuracy, but completely taken by the methodical, extremely accurate way he was loading.
It was an education in shooting that's for sure.. Something I won't soon forget..

Jack

[Bullshop]

I bet they were plain base boolits too.

[WildmanJack]

Yup, they sure were..

[trap4570]

They also have a tool that seats the bullet into the breech a specified distance and the bullets are molded to be tapered. Everything is indexed and everything done the exact same way from shot to shot. The larger muzzle loading slug guns of .50 cal and up even use two piece bullets. The bottom part is soft lead and the nose is a harder lead and they swage them together usually before loading. I think they change the weight of the nose or configuration of the nose depending on the range and wind conditions. I've seen them use x shaped paper patches while loading the bullet into the false muzzle. I have an antique slug gun of approx. 66 cal, but the false muzzle and related tools are not with it. It weighs about 40 lbs. It is as interesting to watch the loading process as it is to watch the match.

[texasmac]

Here's a photo of a high wall breech seating tool made by Rush Weber. Russ gets around $175 to $200 for these. It comes fitted with two cases that are fireformed in the rifle the seater will be use for. Other cases and calibers are easily adapted. When using the seater the bullet is perfectly aligned and the tool is adjustable for seating depth.

Wayne

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/RealTexasMac/Browning188545-70breechseater.jpg

[fa38]

<<<<OK, This peaked my interest and I understand that you take the bullet and push it to the barrel until it is touching the lands and grove and then place the filled cartridge behind it. The questions that I have are one (what do you put into the case to keep the powder from decompressing and spilling into the barrel?), Two (how do you know the proper distance between the bullet and the is obtained and what is the proper distance?) and third, (can modern powder be used or just Black and Black substitutes?).

Thanks .

Matt>>>>

For the short cases like the 32-20 or the 32 Miller short you can use a poly wad, cork wad, or floral foam to keep the powder in the case. The wad can be at the case mouth or down on the powder.
In longer cases like the 30-30 straight, 32-40, 33-40, 38-55 you won’t really need a powder wad, just a little care in inserting the case into the chamber.

Using a seater with some leverage is the easiest way to do it. The bullet can be seated anywhere from touching the case mouth to a half inch or more in front of the case.
If you use a seater that you push the bullet in buy hand the barrel should probably be throated for the bullet as it can get hard on the elbow after seating 100 plus bullets for a 100 shot match.
You change the seating depth until you get the accuracy you need. Benchrest shooters will play around with the depth. As I usually shoot offhand I am not as concerned about a ¼ inch difference in accuracy. It can change with a difference in seating depth.
A good place to start in seating depth is when at least half of the base band of the bullet is engraved by the rifling.

Powders used in this type of shooting can be anywhere from Bulls Eye up to 4198. Ball powders are used a lot because they flow through a powder measure so well. AA#9, H110, WC820. The classic powders are IMR 4227 and 4759. The velocity of the bullet is usually under 1500 fps to avoid leading
My favorite powders in the 25-20 Win is AA #7 and HS 6. In the 32-40 its WC820 and 4227

[xtimberman]

The tool on top is a simple breech-seater that I made by soldering an empty case to an old ruined phillips-head screwdriver. I inserted a tight-fitting dowel that is flush with the case mouth.

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj439/xtimberman/DSCN0984.jpg

This was made for a .32-35 Maynard rifle. The tip-up breech is easily accessible and doesn't require pounding with a comfortable screwdriver handle. A T-C Contender tip-up would be similar.

xtm

[felix]

FEEL should be standard practice for all kinds of reloading, like when sizing, seating, and most especially crimping if done. This obviously requires a single station press with LOW leverage. ... felix

[felix]

Rotating a case in the chamber according to indicators is a bad practice. If it has to be done to get accuracy, then either the case has variable walls, or the chamber is not straight on, and usually both in practice. Shooting a gun with indicators will wear the throat to oblong sooner or later. ... felix

[jazzman251]

I'm a member or AASRA and recently this link to breech loading was posted. It's interesting and informative.
Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_-xGH02JIE

[xtimberman]

Rotating a case in the chamber according to indicators is a bad practice. If it has to be done to get accuracy, then either the case has variable walls, or the chamber is not straight on, and usually both in practice. Shooting a gun with indicators will wear the throat to oblong sooner or later. ... felix

If that throat wear be true or not...many schuetzen-style riflemen still perform that step. Many of us have proven to ourselves that it often makes a difference - and removes a variable in that quest for a tiny group. Most of us suffer from OCD anyway..... :-)

You do realize that your post is gonna cause some of these fellas to try to come up with a statistical arbitrary case-orientation formula to save the chamber throats on their favorite rifles....? :kidding:

xtm

[Doc Highwall]

jazzman251, thanks for posting the U-Tube video.

[Longwood]

Rotating a case in the chamber according to indicators is a bad practice. If it has to be done to get accuracy, then either the case has variable walls, or the chamber is not straight on, and usually both in practice. Shooting a gun with indicators will wear the throat to oblong sooner or later. ... felix
Back when I was shooting competitively, and had a time limit, I always neck reamed my cases for a loose bullet fit and seated them way out so my bullets would seat perfectly into the rifling during loading and made sure the carefully weighed and volume sorted cases were always chambered exactly the same way each time. Usually with the marking on the base of the case upright and readable.
I tried using the screw driver handle on a machined phoney case for a while but it took too long.

[Longwood]

jazzman251, thanks for posting the U-Tube video.
At about 5:37 on the video you will see a simple seater pop out of the breach. It is simply a piece machined from brass that is placed in the chamber with a handmade, two pronged, stick. I used one like it before I made the screw driver type.
I think that guy John in the video is cheating a little. Did you notice he is wearing some sort of "Counter weight" inside of his shirt, just above his belt? ;-)

[Longwood]

They also have a tool that seats the bullet into the breech a specified distance and the bullets are molded to be tapered. Everything is indexed and everything done the exact same way from shot to shot. The larger muzzle loading slug guns of .50 cal and up even use two piece bullets. The bottom part is soft lead and the nose is a harder lead and they swage them together usually before loading. I think they change the weight of the nose or configuration of the nose depending on the range and wind conditions. I've seen them use x shaped paper patches while loading the bullet into the false muzzle. I have an antique slug gun of approx. 66 cal, but the false muzzle and related tools are not with it. It weighs about 40 lbs. It is as interesting to watch the loading process as it is to watch the match.
Have you ever shot that rifle?
I would consider having a new false muzzle made for it, then shooting it.

[uscra112]

I don't think it's been pointed out yet that many of the old breech-seat Schuetzen rifles were specially throated. Throats were sometimes so long they were almost a free-bore job. Seating in these didn't require a toggle device - you could push the boolit in with one hand. Such rifles usually would not shoot well with any boolit except the ones they throated for, nor would they work with any kind of fixed ammunition. Boolits were often cast with a slight taper, too, to match the throat. Harry Pope was a big advocate of this idea. So the lubricator die had to be specially made so as not to do damage to the taper.

[Tracy]

OK, This peaked my interest...

Matt

The word is "piqued". Sorry.

I remember seeing pictures of the breech loading tools, and descriptions of the loading method, in articles about Scheutzen competitions about 30 years ago.

[geargnasher]

How about the explanation too? Pique is a French word that means "prick", like a pinprick that suddenly gets your attention, thus the figure of speech.

And "breach" means, among other things, push through or make a big hole, not the user end of a gunbarrel.

Gear

[9.3X62AL]

I think that guy John in the video is cheating a little. Did you notice he is wearing some sort of "Counter weight" inside of his shirt, just above his belt? ;-)

Hey--I resemble that remark!

"Counterweight". I like that, it's classier than calling it a "Budweiser tumor".

[Longwood]

Hey--I resemble that remark!

"Counterweight". I like that, it's classier than calling it a "Budweiser tumor".
Dunlapped disease.
It's dun lapped over his belt.

[nanuk]

Molson Muscle!