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View Full Version : Why no 5mm Remington Rifles?



bowfin
02-13-2011, 09:29 PM
Okay, the 5mm Remington Magnum came out 40 years ago and was a flop. Worse yet, they stopped making the ammunition, and those of us with the rifles were left high and dry.

Then the .17 HMR came along, and it was phenomenal success, helping Hornady out financially and selling tons of rifles.

So now Aguila has resurrected ammunition for the 5mm, but no rifles. I would have thought Savage or CZ would jump at the chance to chamber this cartridge in one of their accurate rifles, but no go. Not even a chambering in a NEF Handi-rifle.

I've used mine for target and hunting, and it is the only rimfire I would take to the prairie dog towns in windy Nebraska.

Any conjectures as to why no new rifles?

35remington
02-13-2011, 09:36 PM
No market.

The .17 HMR is expensive enough, and it's not that difficult to undercut its prices if you handload. As it is the cost per round is nearly 25 cents per shot.

The 5mm? Even more expensive, and a .22 Hornet will easily outrun it for lower cost.

That's my guess. The rimfire market is saturated with pricey options already.

Why spend lots of money for poor performance?

For that matter, a .22 Hornet shooting cast bullets will outdo it. So where's the benefit? Many others, including manufacturers, must be thinking the same thing.

crawfobj
02-13-2011, 09:47 PM
I agree with 35Rem. I'm unfamiliar with the ballistics of the 5mm rem, but I am always impressed with the performance of my .22 mag. I'm not sure how much more you could get out of a rimfire than that.

That said, I still think someone should build a rimfire scale (or slightly upscaled but as small/light as possible) bolt action rifle around the 5.7x.28 cartridge. Not much of a market for that either, but it would be a fun, handy little rifle, IMO. It would be really handy for us handloaders, especially with boolits.

smkummer
02-13-2011, 10:02 PM
Sure there is a small market for the current hot 17 rimfires but most likely they have sold well more than who would actually need them. So the market may soften and ammo may even come down a little in price. Time will tell if they continure to be profitable. What may have helped the 22 WMR was the adaptability to revolvers. The 5mm was marketed to better the 22 WMR and in some ways it did, but ammo price and maybe odd bore diameter did it in. Other than 22 LR, the other rimfires have priced themselves out of the plinking market. These higher priced rimfires are only cheaper than centerfires to those who do not reload.

bowfin
02-13-2011, 10:08 PM
Why spend lots of money for poor performance?

Don't know which 5mm you were shooting, but "poor performance" isn't applcable with my rifle and experience. It pretty much matches the accuracy of a couple .22 Hornets (Savage and Ruger) when the wind doesn't gust. It doesn't have the steam of the .22 Hornet, but both the 5mm and Hornet are "poor performers" compared to the bigger .22 centerfires.

I also realize that the 5mm isn't attractive to reloaders, but we reloaders tend to think everybody reloads. Go to some forums, however (calguns.net maybe) and reloading is never considered in their lamentations for cheap ammo for milsurp firearms.

But the main question was why the .17 HMR didn't follow the history of the 5mm, and why the reintroduction 5mm didn't follow the success of the .17 HMR? Maybe it was a timing thing...

As far as the 5.7x28 in a sporting rifle, Savage rolled one out at the 2011 SHOT show. This was (I thought) a no brainer that was overdue as well.

JeffinNZ
02-13-2011, 10:18 PM
With modern powders and a 30gr bullet the 5mm would be a screamer but it will never make a comeback now with the success of the .17HMR. I had a 5mm barrel and sold it yonks ago.

Marine Sgt 2111
02-13-2011, 10:34 PM
I remember reading lots of articles about how the 5mm had better section density and how the 38gr hp was explosive. At the time, .22 mag didn't have the high quality ammo that there is now (40gr fmj's and hp's back then). As much as I like the 5mm mag, I can only imagine how the prices would sky rocket like the .17's have. I have never bought a .17 rimfire simply because I have a .17 ackley hornet.

shaune509
02-14-2011, 12:52 AM
I to have to agrie that the 5mm was a good round that just was to early like the Tucker car to servive. The 17 is it nearest reserection[sp] and hopefully the ammo price spread betwen it and .22lr will close. I was loking at a 5mm Remington for <$95.00 before the ammo was reinterduced, do wish I had gottin it. At the time I just could not see getting a gun that the few times I found ammo on the net it was more than the gun.
shaune509

trevj
02-14-2011, 01:45 AM
If it was a Remington 5mm, you should have grabbed it.

They have some value as a rebarrel candidate, after converting the bolt to centerfire.

Nice small action, and unlike most rimfires, it had locking lugs, rather than just the bolt handle.

Buncha work, but a sweet little rifle.

Cheers
Trev

badbob454
02-14-2011, 01:52 AM
Don't know which 5mm you were shooting, but "poor performance" isn't applcable with my rifle and experience. It pretty much matches the accuracy of a couple .22 Hornets (Savage and Ruger) when the wind doesn't gust. It doesn't have the steam of the .22 Hornet, but both the 5mm and Hornet are "poor performers" compared to the bigger .22 centerfires.

I also realize that the 5mm isn't attractive to reloaders, but we reloaders tend to think everybody reloads. Go to some forums, however (calguns.net maybe) and reloading is never considered in their lamentations for cheap ammo for milsurp firearms.

But the main question was why the .17 HMR didn't follow the history of the 5mm, and why the reintroduction 5mm didn't follow the success of the .17 HMR? Maybe it was a timing thing...

As far as the 5.7x28 in a sporting rifle, Savage rolled one out at the 2011 SHOT show. This was (I thought) a no brainer that was overdue as well.

DONT WANT TO RELOAD... what about the 5.45x39 it is a fast hard hitting bullet designed to yaw upon impact causing major destruction ...Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
3.2 g (49 gr) 5N7 FMJ mild steel core 915 m/s (3,000 ft/s) 1,340 J (990 ft·lbf)
3.43 g (52.9 gr) 7N6 FMJ hardened steel core 880 m/s (2,900 ft/s) 1,328 J (979 ft·lbf)
3.62 g (55.9 gr) 7N10 FMJ enhanced penetration 880 m/s (2,900 ft/s) 1,402 J (1,034 ft·lbf)
3.68 g (56.8 gr) 7N22 AP hardened steel core 890 m/s (2,900 ft/s) 1,457 J (1,075 ft·lbf)
5.2 g (80 gr) 7U1 subsonic for silenced AKS-74UB 303 m/s (990 ft/s) 239 J (176 ft·lbf)
Test barrel length: 415 mm (16.6 in) and 200 mm (7.9 in) for 7U1
Source(s): [1]
how can a 5 mm remington compare to that , and the ammunition is CHEAP check out Aim surplus for prices

9.3X62AL
02-14-2011, 02:34 AM
I have a new CZ-455 waiting on DROS clearance currently. There rifles feature swap-barrel capability between 17 HMR, 22 LR, and 22 Magnum. The magazine has a filler that allows use of 22 LR. Could a chamber and bore-out of a spare 17 HMR barrel create a 5mm Rem Mag for you?

kmag
02-14-2011, 04:42 AM
Had one of the 5 mm Remingtons it was lots of fun and shot good. I thought it was better than the 22 mag. I remember when they stoped making ammo for it and sure made me mad. I had been a Remington fan and about the only cases I used were Remingtons. But I have never forgiven them. I have over the years gone to Winchester products and avoid Remington.

Hickory
02-14-2011, 08:57 AM
I tell you what I would do if I had the gun and the money to do it.
For myself, I'd find out if it was feasible to either rebarrel it to a 5.7x28 fn.
Or wildcat it to a 5mm or .20 caliber using the 5.7x28 case.

Light weight medium range varmint gun that you can reload.:Fire:

bowfin
02-14-2011, 09:25 AM
how can a 5 mm remington compare to that , and the ammunition is CHEAP check out Aim surplus for prices

My question was more "What does the .17 HMR have that the 5mm Remington Magnum doesn't?"

The 5.45x39 is indeed cheap to shoot, but accurate rifles and ammunition for the 5.45 are lacking, so a cartridge that yaws on impact and can't guarantee headshot accuracy is problematic for small game or furbearing varmints.

Hickory
02-14-2011, 09:30 AM
The 5.7x28 and the 5.45x39 are different cartridges.


http://www.fototime.com/292A0A8431E70EF/medium.jpg (http://www.fototime.com/pictinv/292A0A8431E70EF)

http://www.fototime.com/1DAC082D02644FE/medium.jpg (http://www.fototime.com/pictinv/1DAC082D02644FE)

Although the dimentions are metric you can tell the difference in the two.

bowfin
02-14-2011, 10:49 AM
Hickory,

My fault, I should have addressed my reply to badbobgerman, who was championing the 5.45x39mm as a 5mm replacement.

bowfin
02-14-2011, 10:51 AM
Here is a link to Savage's introduction of the Model 25 Walking Varminter in 5.7x28:

http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=7gGoX0RZK

Hickory
02-14-2011, 10:57 AM
Oh, I guess I made a mistake too. Sorry.

crawfobj
02-14-2011, 12:19 PM
Savage's rifle is a step in the right direction, for a 5.7x28, but I keep hoping for someone to build one with an appropriately short action for the little cartridge. Hornet-like performance in an (almost) rimfire scale rifle would be something I'd shell out for. Limited market, but it sure would be neat.

Seems that the only way to do it now is to rebarrel a 5mm rem as someone mentioned above.

The Savage seems to be build on the same short action that they use for their .223 and .222 bolt actions.

roysha
02-14-2011, 01:45 PM
Just quickly skimming through the replies, I did not see it mentioned that the biggest problem with the 5MM REM was the fact that REM, in there infinite stupidity, did not just neck down the 22 MAG but made a distinct case for this cartridge which requires an entire tooling set up for just this cartridge. That is the reason for such a long delay in getting a rerun of this ammo.

Performance wise, it was 0K, but with the cost and availability of ammo, (compared to the 22 MAG) and extremely limited gun model availability, well, we know what happened.

This scenario is a very typical REM process.

35remington
02-19-2011, 12:42 AM
If it can't match the accuracy of the Hornet in any kind of wind, and doesn't have the steam (nowhere close, frankly), then it's accurate to say performance of the 5mm is poor. It wouldn't be a 200 yard round, certainly. Nor is the 17, so many would not consider it an improvement. A bullet light enough for good speed in the 5mm would be no improvement in B.C. over what the 17 offers, and the 17's BC is no better than .22 long rifle ballpark (.130). 0.130 isn't good, quite honestly.

Low priced 5mm isn't likely. Noticeably higher pricing than the .17 or .22 magnum is. Even these are hardly cheap. A small increase in performance for substantially increased cost is probably what would occur with any revamp of the 5mm.

Look at it this way:

If the 5mm was such an obvious winner, and production and pricing as well as performance limitations were so easily overcome, someone would have tried it again by now.

So certain of high speed salability of subcalibers were some marketers that the 17HM2 was introduced shortly after the 17HMR......and flopped big time.

My guess is that the people that take the risks figure the longer range rimfire market is now saturated, and the 5mm isn't enough of an improvement to warrant the effort and the substantial cost of failure.

Time will or will not prove me wrong, but a resurgent 5mm rimfire isn't a safe bet for those that take the marketing risks.

475BH
03-15-2011, 03:26 PM
G2 Contender barrel, 5MM REM MAG, Blued 23", No Sights, #4198

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/g2Contender.php

vh2q
02-14-2015, 02:46 PM
This is an old but interesting thread. Centurion (Aguila) makes 5mm RM ammo and I can tell you it is murder on ground squirrels way beyond 22LR and somewhat beyond 22 WMR distances. The problem is now the price of the rifles has shot up! And while the action may be good, the stock is plain ugly and the cheesy plastic rib/sights on the barrel detracts from the rifle. Rechambering a 22 to this caliber is problematic due to the case head size and the (much) higher pressure which calls for complete enclosure of the case head, i.e. the standard extractor mechanism on most 22s is problematic. As a single shot fan, I found an avenue which worked for me (but it would be expensive for someone who can't do his own lathe work): the old Stevens 44 in 25 RF has a case head size close enough that a rebarrel works without any changes to the action. Just fit the extractor with care to the new barrel (Green mountain has/had some stainless blanks). Since this is a 'take down' and the firearm is somewhat collectible, you can preserve the old barrel. I put a "leatherwood" target scope on mine again this does not require any drilling of the action. It shoots better than any rimfire I have owned incl the 591 I sold. As in 1/2 moa. The only drawback is I copied the original stout barrel contour and the rifle is not light by any stretch. I considered doing the same to a Favorite 25RF for a lighter rifle but the barrel-to-action fit can be a bit wobbly on those. If you wanted to go that route, I would advise getting a 1915 model not the 1898, then threading the action and the barrel to get a more solid setup. Also replacing the action screws and pins with modern replacements made from drill rod as the 5mm is more than 2x the pressure of the 22lr and the action pins will not take the pounding.