Suitable for Hunting?

[KCSO]

I was doing some looking for different 45-70 loads and came across 45-70 for Africa. Now on this forum there is a big P contest about wether a 45-70 bullet at 2100 fps is up to a 405 bullet at 2100 fps and some such nonsense. But what grabbed me was a fellow who was contending that the other guys 45-70 loads were no good because," you can only use cast bullets at that velocity and not bullets suitable for hunting". Whoa cast bulllets aren't suitable for hunting? Or are they only not suitable in Africa? Boy FC and Baker will be surprised. I am sure dissapointed to know that all those buffalo I shot are not really dead. I wonder how I ate them?

Actuall I think the bottom line might be this statment in another place on 45-70's. "The Americans who bring them over here have no respect for tradition." Now I knoow why I was allways PO'ed when Elmer shot bear with his double gun!

[MT Gianni]

One may as well ask if the ship transport over was OK. It makes you wonder if the PH took then out in a Jeep or a horse and wagon. Oh, that's back into the days of lead isn't it.

[Duckiller]

Does this mean I can use wheel weights to cast boolits for my 45-70. Since I got the gun to defend the family from Buffalo stampedes I was afraid was I was only going to be able to cast with pure lead. I am sure Buffalo Bill didn't use wheel weights to cast his projectiles. May also use this gun to defend against attacking paper targets. Definitely don't want to have to buy copper jacketed projectiles or solid copper projectiles for this gun, not cheap shooting.

[siamese4570]

There was an article in either Handloader or Rifle a year or so back written by Brian Pierce. He took his marlin 45-70 to Africa and killed several head of game with it. The PH took a dim view of it until he pulled the trigger on a cape buffalo. Killed the buffalo and an unseen cow on the other side of the bull. He was using "j" boolits but i imagine that a hard cast lead bollit would have worked. Evidentally the previous 45-70 users had tried 300 gr hp's with bad results.

siamese4570

[1Shirt]

A lot of it depends on what you can afford to do in Africa, and what you are willing to pay. Have been once, and am going back again in Sept, but only because I inherited some money. Probably my last hunt there due to age, and really wish I had been fortunate enough to afford an African hunt when I was in my 30's or 40's.

No question that 45-70 will take buff, or anything else over there for that matter. It is an issue of proper load, proper placement, and adequate time for a clean shot. However, that said, remember your shots are going to be backed by at least the PH, and probably one or two other guns. You pay the PH to get you to the game, within range, and to back you if you muff the shot and only wound the animal. If you wound only, or gut shoot etc. it is the PH who will be doing the dangerous work of the follow up. My PH says 375H&H minimum for dangerous game, so that is what goes.

If I could affort the luxury of extra money would I consider a 45-70, probably not. It would not be because I felt it would be inadequate, but because of my respect for the PH, his experiance, and my safety. I am no Bell or Taylor or Rourk etc., just an old codger wanting one last big game dangerous hunt, with hopes of a clean one shot kill.
1Shirt:coffeecom

[KCSO]

Brian was using hammerheads. My only point was that this fellow thought that cast bullets were not suitable for hunting. Although that leads me to believe that he wasn't much of a hunter professional or otherwise.

[btroj]

We also forget that there is a huge difference between a stopping rifle and a hunting rifle. The PH needs a gun that can stop game NOW. A hunting rifle needs to be able to make a quick, clean kill. These are two very different needs.
I would hunt almost any animal on earth with a 45-70 using cast bullets. Make a good shot with the right load and you will have no troubles. This assumes of course getting close enough and being proficient with your rifle.
This is an example of a person who has most likely seen failures with 45-70 and factory or factory equiv ammo. Would I want to pump a big bear full of 300 HP factory ammo? No. But it would not be good for the bear to have a 420 gr medium hard cast bullet through the chest.
I would prefer not to shoot whitetails with a 32-20 but given the right shot it will certainly work. Patience, a good bullet (cast are good) , and an accurate shot will easily make up for "lackluster" ballistics.
I am with you 100 percent KCSO. If you read Brians article he mentions killing 2 buffs with one shot using the jacketed solids. He also mentions telling his PH that it is a good thing he was not using a specific cast load he likes or he might have killed three! This is certainly not an indictment of the 45-70 with cast.
To each their own but I will take my 45-70 for any game where it is legal.

Brad

[Harter66]

I think I had a similar discourse a few years ago on another forum. A fellow was bragging on his new in-line 50 burned all 5 pellets in 24". I said something to the effect of hunting long range gizzley,cause your pushing into the 50 BMG there. Ya know my 28" Hawken with a prb is right there with an 06' for the 1st 50yd. But mines all shiney and shoots more,and no it doesn't. No chrony then too bad. So then I say bet me ,I just got the new Lyman book ,it says a 45-110 w/32" bbl will match a 458 WM with the 405 win j bullet +- 100fps,deference loaded for Sharps re-pro's.

As a note Brian was shooting a 336 and loads way past hopped up Trapdoor loads. Seems like they were 400 gr solids running like 2400fps , he did shoot an Impala or the like with cast boolits in about the 350 class tip toeing along at 2200. Wasn't there a zebra shot in the honch with a boolit skin trapped at the shoulder too.

I love it when you can shut em up wth respected facts from print.

[stubshaft]

How can you dispute a good "old wives tale" with something as trivial as cold hard facts.

[btroj]

Brian was shooting an 1895 Marlin, not a 336. And they were 400 gr solids in the 1700 fps range. A 400 gr bullet at 2400 is not "beyond trapdoor", it IS 416 Rigby!

I don't know where you got your facts but they are a bit off. Also, no matter how many pellets you put in a muzzleloader it is nowhere near a 50 BMG. No muzzleloader is getting 2600fps plus with a 700 plus gr slug.

[1Shirt]

Btroj is correct! Don't want to get into a public urination contest about muzzleloaders etc,etc,etc. However, both btroj and I competed with front stuffers for many years, and have a bunch of medals to show for our time. Think if you compare balistic tables for any round ball from a 50-54-58 front stuffer w/prb, compared energy wise to an 06 factory load you will find appreciable difference at any range inclusive of the 50 yd. mark. And as to compairing a muzzle loader to a 50 BMG, there is no comparison in energy unless you are talking possibly 2-3" or better muzzle loading cannon.

As to an 1895 Marlin 45-70 shooting a 400 grain anything, at or over 2400 fps, don't know where your data came from. I seriously doubt that you could get a 400 grain in a #1 Ruger much over 2000 fps, much less in a weaker actioned Marlin. Even a 458Win mag is listed at max load with a 405 gr at about 2250.

Note also that the comparison of cast in a 45-110 Sharps, 30" bbl to approximately the same vol as a 45/70 shorter bbl w/cast, but does not reference jacketed. There is appreciable difference. Would be interested in knowing what a tiptoeing 2200 fps load is in a 45-70 with a 400 grain blt. Would like to see a tiptoeing hammerhead. Fantastic projectiles!
1Shirt!

[MtGun44]

I have shot 2050fps/405Gr with published data over a chrono with my Marlin 1895 GG, near max
load. Too punishing for me but not a problem for the gun. I don't think 2400 is achievable, though.
Hodgdon has published data for 2100 fps with 405 gr Jbullet and 2300 fps with 350 jbullet.

I used a 405 Rem JSP at 1750 to take a wildebeest, thru both shoulder bones, fully expanded,
caught on the hide on the far side. A solid would have penetrated fully. The higher velocity is
not needed.

Bill

[PatMarlin]

Interesting thread.

Tell me what do they do with elephants in Africa when harvested for sport. Native meat?

[Old Ironsights]

Interesting thread.

Tell me what do they do with elephants in Africa when harvested for sport. Native meat?

Yes. From what I've been told by a PH friend and from what I've read, the only Meat that you get from what you kill is what you eat while there.

Part of the reason that Safaris exist is as a method of providing meat to the locals at no expense to the corrupt governments.

[PatMarlin]

That is great.

I'm no PETA eater by any means, but it's always bothered me- some of the hunting stories I've read over the years about elephants, and how they have a remarkable consciousness, and stay in close nit families. How killing a sibling even has enraged the elephant to where it goes nuts and sniffs out the hunter to track him down and attack.

That is a remarkable animal by any measure that's able to think like that. I think hunting, harvesting, and killing animals is a great blessing and should be respected and put to it's fullest use as a resource. Even deer and elk to me are awesome animals, and should not be killed for just sport, and wasted.

[Old Ironsights]

Part of the problem with Elephants is that whole "family" thing they do.

Imagine if you are a near starving aboriginal eeking out a meager harvest. You can keep out the antelope, but can you keep out a family of Elephants?

They are like Groundhogs, except for one thing, one elephant eats something like 400 POUNDS of vegetation per day and prefers human crops when it can get it. Who wouldn't? Plains Vegetation is dry and tasteless. And they come in groups. And, like groundhogs, you can't fence them out.

So anyplace in Africa where the people want to grow crops, all of the elephants (and rhino) have to be extirpated first. Any place you want to have cattle, or children for that matter, all the big cats have to be killed off... or concentrated in Hunting Preserves, which is largely what they have now. Without the preserves, no "Big 5". But IN the Preserves, even though they make Texas Ranches look minuscule, there's not enough natural die/kill-off to keep the species healthy.

So game management comes into play. And when the elephants get out into the villages? Well, all you can do is try to prevent it and kill them whenever they get off the preserves.

[PatMarlin]

Well that makes sense. Good to learn about this stuff. Africa- I don't know anything about.

[Larry Gibson]

I no longer go to the "large bore" forums on other firearm sites because of this ignorance. I load trapdoor level 45-70 loads with bothe cast and jacketed (mostly cast though) and know what they will do on game. I forget who the hunters were but it was televised and an article was in the AR(?) about a recent buff hunt in Africa with Pedersoli riles using the 45-70 or 45-90(?) and they performed nicely. I also shoot 45-70s in my Siamese Mauser with 400 gr bullets at 2300 fps or 500 gr bullets at 2100 fps (both cast and jacketed). Even though that is .458 Win mag or 450-400-3 1/4 velocities with the same bullets I was balley whoed from all sides, even from those touting the .458 Win mag. I finally gave up trying to reason with them when one fellow simply stated something like;"doesn't matter if the bullets and the velocity are the same, it's from a 45-70 so it just won't do....."! How does one reason with that?

Larry Gibson

[looseprojectile]

I find myself just shaking my head and smiling a lot these days. I know that you have been there done that with all manner of guns and ammo and I have done a little of most of what you have done. There is a vast army of folks out there that will not use lead bullets cause "they will ruin your gun".
I think I have finally convinced my shooting partner that a .44 magnum in a rifle can be loaded with a cast boolit to kill as well as most factory 45 70s. And you can load ten or a dozen in a levergun.
My comment to the nay sayers is "If you know how to do it you can". Then offer to show them how.

Life is good

[btroj]

When I was in Africa I was told that the meat is the property of the land owner. They can keep for own use, give to families in area, and much is sold at market. I was assured that nothing went to waste. I believe this after seeing the skinners cleaning the stomach from my kudu. Each piece of private property I hunted had a building set up for butchering as these are traditional ranches and keep either cattle, rarely, or sheep for meat.

As for a 45-70, it will do almost anything that can be asked of it. I did see one article that said it was not recommended for elephant as it does not give adequate velocity with 500 gr solids for reliable penetration on brain shots. This I felt was reasonable.

I have a feeling that some of this bias is due to factory ammo. A 300 HP is not what I would call ideal for even elk. If this is the criteria that people are looking at then they need to state that factory ammo is not adequate, the round is with proper loading. Sort of like condemning 30-60 for elk because the 125 grain farming bullets don't penetrate well enough.

[1Shirt]

On the ranch I hunted in Numibia, the meat was owned by the land owner (An Africaner of I believe at least 5-6 generations). Complete gutting/skinning operation, nothing wasted. Meat was taken into a cold storage area in the closest town (about 50 or so miles away about twice a week). Game fed all on the ranch which included approximately 25 hired hands. One of the specialties was BBQ gemsbuck intistine, which was laughingly called Kalahari Kalimari (I liked it-my hunting partner did not). Am booked into Zimb in Sept for Buff. All meat killed there with exception of what us used for camp, goes to the local tribe in the area. A buff provides a good qty of meat, a hippo a lot more, and an elephant a whoop of protein. This pretty much eliminates poaching as a problem, promotes conservation and a continued hunting population of game, etc.

As always, appreciate and value Larry Gibson's comments. Have reached an age where I am becoming more and more recoil aware, so work up to it with moderate to med loads before I go to full power in any of the big rifles. I would be willing to hunt anything in Africa with a 45-70, but my previous statement stands regarding the issue of the desires of the PH. Might have to stake my life on him!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[KCSO]

It's strange because over here British calibers are held in awe all out of proportion to their usefullness. When I was feeling tough I loaded my #1 with a 400 gran bullet and shot with a buddy who was big on a 450-400. His ruger #1 chronoed at 2060 fps with a 400 gran bullet, my 45-70 went an even 2100 with a 400 grain bullet. Now assuming bullets of equal construction, where is there a difference. But my buddy had to have the 450 400 in case he went to Africa. I have just finished reading an old book by Jack Behn on the 45-70 and he lists loads from Phil Sharpe's book of the 30's and the 45-70 wasn't a wimp even then. One load with #16 powder went 2100 fps with a 300 grain bullet way back then and that was samo samo as the 405 Winchester.

Now having dug bullets out of so far 10 American Bison I have a pretty good idea what a rifle will do and if I hunt buff I stick with the 45 B/P rounds as they will out penetrate a 300 Win mag. I actually prefer a 45-70 over the 45-110 as the 110 at under 100 yards zips through and just keeps on going.

Back in 1975 I about ruined my shoulder shooting a Siamese Mauser with 500 gr cast bullets from linotyps and hefty charges of 3031. At that time I felt that that rifle and load would drop even an elephant. In all my shooting I found the linootype bullets penetrated better than factory hornady's. The jacketed slugs would bend and the lino ones might lose a little nose but went straight.

[btroj]

Yeah, the 45-70 will do anything you want it to. And my shoulder will cry uncle well before my Marlin, and it won't take loads a #1 will.
A good cast bullet at decent velocity will go through anything I need to shoot through.

[Recluse]

That is a remarkable animal by any measure that's able to think like that. I think hunting, harvesting, and killing animals is a great blessing and should be respected and put to it's fullest use as a resource. Even deer and elk to me are awesome animals, and should not be killed for just sport, and wasted.

I'm with you 100%.

I detest and despise trophy hunting with every fibre in my body.

Was taught from the time I could walk if you shoot it (varmints and personal defense threats excluded), you eat it. If you catch it (fishing) and keep it, you eat it.

I once had an interesting conversation with a "big game" hunter of whom everyone here would instantly recognize, and I asked about all these "elephant" and "lion" hunts he'd been on.

He explained that man was the apex predator and as such, it was part of our responsibility to cull the weak and sick out of the herds, blah blah blah. Some of what he said made sense, but a lot was just a bunch of BS and I told him so. He disagreed and we agreed to disagree. Remarkably, we've stayed friends to this day even with this significant philosophical difference.

I'm more of a purist. I hunt and fish when the freezer is bare or getting that way. There is not one dead animal head hanging on any wall in our house and never will be.

Just me. I have no problem with our friends who have stuffed and mounted heads all over their place. In fact, I often admire some of them. But I also know these folks processed and consumed the meat from those animals, too.

:coffee:

[MtGun44]

Not one shred of meat is wasted in African hunting. It is eaten (small quantity) by the
hunters, very good but the majority is sold in the supermarkets. You can get any of the
normal game meat there as either fresh or dried meat. The game operation has a huge
walk in freezer and full commercial meat handling facilities, all of the game meat is treated
like a butchered cow.

I have no idea what you mean by "trophy hunters". If you detest me because I paid to
have my deer head mounted or my warthog mounted, then you are a pretty narrow
minded and unpleasant person, IMO. What exactly is wrong with mounting the head
of an animal? I never have shot anything that I did not eat except one time I went
prairie dog shooting, didn't do it again. I think you are speaking out of ignorance, it would
seem.

Bill

[Recluse]

I have no idea what you mean by "trophy hunters". If you detest me because I paid to
have my deer head mounted or my warthog mounted, then you are a pretty narrow
minded and unpleasant person, IMO. What exactly is wrong with mounting the head
of an animal? I never have shot anything that I did not eat except one time I went
prairie dog shooting, didn't do it again. I think you are speaking out of ignorance, it would
seem.

Bill

I'll tell you exactly what I mean by "trophy hunters."

In fall of '81, I'm stationed at Hill Air Force Base in northern Utah. Deer season was a three-day event, and highly commercialized. Two different jeep dealerships were giving away new Jeeps for best rack. Sunset Sports and Dave Cook Sports were competing to see who could give away the most expensive Weatherby and Leupold scope combos for best deer shot. Other businesses were giving away tens of thousands of dollars in cash and cash prizes.

Some of us walked through the Wasatch mountains the day after deer season was over. I saw less carnage in Cambodia in '79 than what I saw in my own damned country.

There were headless deer carcasses everywhere. Bunch of SOB slobs hunting ONLY FOR THE TROPHY BUCKS had slaughtered anything that even remotely looked like a buck, and left the carcass to rot.

For the first time in my life, I could understand and emphathize with the Indians when they saw what the Buffalo hunters had done slaughtering hundreds, thousands of animals for only the hides.

Wasn't just deer either. We found a number of dogs that had been shot, several bear, lots of does.

All for the chance to win a new Jeep or get a new rifle or some cash.

THAT'S what I'm calling "trophy hunters" and they make me want to puke and I don't have one damned thing nice to say to them or about them.

I stated above that *I* don't have a single head hanging on my wall, but do not begrudge any of my friends that DO because they utilized almost every square inch of that elk or pig or deer or goat or bear that they shot. But stuffed heads aren't for me and never will be.

Not after all the carnage I saw in Utah that fall with headless carcasses.

So let's be careful about the "ignorance" accusations.

:coffee:

[btroj]

I too have no use for trophy hunting. I do not eat a lot of deer but enjoy hunting them. Mine are either given to people I know who can use the meat or donated through local meat processors where it goes to homeless shelters.
The idea of killing an animal and cutting off the head only to leave the rest is wrong. Just plain wrong.
A true hunter to me is someone who respects the game. They respect the outdoors and wilderness. They try to leave no impact upon the terrain. Face it, it comes down to respect. And it should never be about money. Money is the biggest problem in hunting today. Too much of it has become a rich mans game.

[waksupi]

I dislike the "Big Buck" contests because of the slob hunters. They have been outlawed in many states I believe.
When we still had a good deer population, I would put a few does in the freezer, then hunt for a big buck with my A tag. I did that more for the extra time to spend in the mountains looking at deer, than the prospect of shooting a big buck. I would usually end up shooting one of the smaller bucks I saw, with deformed antlers, or no buck at all, If I didn't need more meat.

[KCSO]

I spent this winter chasing a slob who shot a deer off the road and cut off the head and left the rest ON the road to rot.. HA HA ! It cost him $1000 for that head!

[MtGun44]

I would never condone leaving an animal to rot. I call African hunting, 'trophy hunting', and
I know that nothing is wasted. Unfortunately, the US government won't let me bring my
meat home. It was my impression, apparently incorrect, that you were saying that
African trophy hunting left meat to rot, which is not correct - hence my comment on
ignorance.

Using the term 'trophy hunting' to mean some tiny minority of low grade jerks that cut the
head off of an animal and leave it, is about as fair as being unable to see the difference
between a poacher and a hunter. Anti-hunting groups call poachers, "hunters", much
in the same way you call slob hunters, "trophy hunters". It is not helpful to the discussion
to smear such terms by using narrow, relatively rare negative examples.

I think you do a great disservice to a whole bunch of folks that are very committed to
ethical hunting by misusing the term "trophy hunter" the way that you do. Clearly, the
people you are talking about are violating game laws, how is it that you don't call them
poachers? That is a much fairer representation of who they are and what they do.

I'm trying to figure out whether you are just being sloppy in your terms or are intentionally
trying to make people mad just for the fun of it. I would hope it is just unintentional
sloppy use of terminology. I'm normally a pretty calm person and try very much to avoid
conflict here, but this is something that I feel has been a very unfair attack on people
that do not deserve it.

Bill

[waksupi]

I would never condone leaving an animal to rot. I call African hunting, 'trophy hunting', and
I know that nothing is wasted. Unfortunately, the US government won't let me bring my
meat home. It was my impression, apparently incorrect, that you were saying that
African trophy hunting left meat to rot, which is not correct - hence my comment on
ignorance.

Using the term 'trophy hunting' to mean some tiny minority of low grade jerks that cut the
head off of an animal and leave it, is about as fair as being unable to see the difference
between a poacher and a hunter. Anti-hunting groups call poachers, "hunters", much
in the same way you call slob hunters, "trophy hunters". It is not helpful to the discussion
to smear such terms by using narrow, relatively rare negative examples.

I think you do a great disservice to a whole bunch of folks that are very committed to
ethical hunting by misusing the term "trophy hunter" the way that you do. Clearly, the
people you are talking about are violating game laws, how is it that you don't call them
poachers? That is a much fairer representation of who they are and what they do.

I'm trying to figure out whether you are just being sloppy in your terms or are intentionally
trying to make people mad just for the fun of it. I would hope it is just unintentional
sloppy use of terminology. I'm normally a pretty calm person and try very much to avoid
conflict here, but this is something that I feel has been a very unfair attack on people
that do not deserve it.

Bill

Correct Bill, I was being sloppy in my use.

[PatMarlin]

I spent this winter chasing a slob who shot a deer off the road and cut off the head and left the rest ON the road to rot.. HA HA ! It cost him $1000 for that head!

They shouda took his rifle too.

I've got more respect for poacher that's hungry.

[BruceB]

I intended, once my blood pressure subsided, to post a reply to the attitudes expressed by some members on this thread. Mtgun44 (Bill) beat me to it, and probably did it much better than I could.

I will add a couple of things:

1. EVERY JURISDICTION of which I am aware in North America, makes it a CRIME to allow game meat to spoil. So, not only are you folks talking about "slob hunters", but you are talking about CRIMINAL slob hunters.

2. Hunters who pursue trophies are often more discriminating and MORE ethical in the pursuit than many "other" hunters are. A real trophy hunter has an objective in mind, and generally will not shoot an animal that doesn't meet his expectations. The fact that some slobs cut off a head and leave the carcass does NOT make them "trophy hunters".

3. There are no ""natural" deaths in the wild, meaning that animals don't lie down in a peaceful glade and quietly drift away. They die via four main routes:

-disease

-predation (including hunting)

-starvation

-accident

A "trophy" animal, taken in his prime, has already made his contribution to the gene pool. He has also lived the majority of his normal span, and a hunter's bullet can spare him the inevitable decline (or worse!) that ends in his death.

Any true and thoughtful hunter knows the mixed reaction of gratitude for success, and sadness at the death of a wonderful creature. Slobs do not, and that's why we call them slobs.

The fact that a man is a trophy hunter does NOT make him a slob.

[PatMarlin]

WHat's a beautiful thing is every part has a use for man, scraps for critters, then bugs. What an awesome system.

like these knuckle heads that will only burn perfect split cord wood, or think buggied old growth pine trees in the forest are good for nothing but rot. And the tree huggers are the biggest idiots of all.

I thin our forest to promote healthy growth, mill every thing that's over 6", burn the rest for firewood. Even CFF is an excellent by product. Leave nothing to waste.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm in Bruce's corner on this one--but I think most of us are saying largely the same things via differing nomenclature. No one (so far) has said anything positive about "slob hunters", which is as it should be.

I detest wasted natural resources in any form. Game animals, game fish, trees, whatever. I do keep antlers and meat.

I do believe that the 45-70 has turned just about every North American game animal into table fare at some point in time, is perfectly capable of doing so, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

If there's anyone I missed upsetting, just PM me--I do so hate to disappoint! :)

[onceabull]

9.3x62AL: Yes, I am disappointed--couldn't you say something about how great Husqvarna Rifles are ???????? (gent walking to & fro at the Filer,Id.show Sunday last, carrying small ring Husq. in 30/06..High $500's.Urny didn't buy it,so I didn't either)--Onceabull

[PatMarlin]

onceabull's still kickin'? ...:mrgreen:

[JudgeBAC]

I've never been to Africa and therefore have no personal experience. But, I remember an article in Rifle mag. written by Mike Venturino where he went to Africa and did very well with an 1874 Sharps. Can't seem to remember the caliber though. Seems the older I get the more things I can't seem to remember.

[dk17hmr]

I am a hunter. A "trophy hunter" when I get more than 3 miles from a road or my truck because I am not packing a small one out. I have animal heads on my walls. I also have a freezer FULL of meat from animals that would not be labeled "trophy" by anyone....large cow elk, small fork horned mule deer, and 2 antelope does.

45-70 is only marginal on p-dogs I dont know I would use it for any large game animals shooting cast or jacketed [smilie=l:

[Harter66]

Though water over the dam now , I digress, its been some 5 or 6 years since I visited that artical and do not dabble in the 45-70. After looking in the 48th edition Lyman I decided then it was cheating to call it an 18000 cup 45-70 when it was loaded ,as I recall,over or upwards of 25000.

250 gr of pyro under a 350-400 gr sabot or boolit is a lot of throttle athority. 3 times myHawken w/a 370 maxi ball,true its not 50 BMG,but still far more than I'll ever want.

It is possible that I've confussed data ,its happened before.

Please refer to pubished data before taking my word for it, I do offten

[Recluse]

My sincere and humble apologies for misusing the term "trophy hunter" as it applied to my own personal negative experiences. This was the term applied to the hunters in the big buck contests I witnessed in the Utah mountains--and the term was applied by the local hunting groups and the media and the sponsors.

I reckon it just stuck.

I have nothing against what I call "big game" hunting which to me is deer, elk, carribou, bear, the African animals, etc. I have no interest in doing it (safari hunting, bear hunting or for game that I do not care to eat) myself, but I used to enjoy reading about it and on occasion, I enjoy watching some of the exploits of such hunts on the various outdoor-oriented tv shows.

However, please understand before some of you get too pissed off that obviously there are some perceptions out there that need educating. I'm a good example of that. I'm a veteran, former cop, college educated, a shooter for almost fifty years and a reloader for forty of those, and have been hunting since I was ten years old.

And yet, my perception of trophy hunting was based upon very real, very firsthand negative experiences.

I am not a social hunter. I hunt alone. Do not want the company. Do not need or want guides for what and where I hunt. Hunting is not a social experience for me and it is not something I usually discuss. Just the way it is.

Therefore, easy for misperceptions to occur.

Again, sorry for my inappropriate use of "trophy hunter." It was not meant to piss anyone off or raise anyone's blood pressure.

:coffee:

[BruceB]

Recluse;

Very well-spoken, and I assure you, my BP is now well-down into the "normal" range. Your explanation makes perfect sense.

***********************************************


On the subject of adequacy, and specifically the adequacy of the .45-70, I'm surprised that the question is even asked at this late date.

Handloading has brought the .45-70 to a level that the originators only dreamed about...but the ORIGINAL loads killed large animals in vast numbers, and very effectively. The present-day loadings are real gamekillers, beyond the limitations of 1873 ballistics (mostly trajectory).

One of my favorite rounds is the .404 Jeffery, which I've used to kill a dozen or so Wood Bison. The .404 dates from 1912, and had (and still has) an extremely successful history as an African big-game cartridge. The 1912 loading used a 400-grain solid or softpoint at 2150 fps. I have chronographed original Kynoch loads, and that speed is exactly what the rifle delivered. Some of those newer .45-70 loads are VERY similar, and I don't think that an extra thirty thousandths of bullet diameter will matter much (.424 vs. .458).

I have an NEI mould for their 421-390 bullet. It casts WW bullets at .422" and 400 grains...PERFECT for my .404. Given my ability to either harden the bullet, or to cast it with a softpoint for loads at FULL FACTORY VELOCITY, it's hard to imagine a better cast-bullet big-game outfit. By extension, this also makes a .45-70 with 400/@ 2150 an equally effective combination. I can say that anything in North America is fair game for such loads, and I could also hunt Africa with such loads with an easy mind.

"Suitable"....YES, in spades!

[1Shirt]

Well, hope that we are all satisfied with this thread, have vented our spleens, offered condolences, etc.etc.etc. Time to go load some 45-70.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[PatMarlin]

My trapdoor and marlin are feeling neglected ...:mrgreen:

[MtGun44]

Recluse,

I am glad that we have corrected our mutual misunderstandings. I am in agreement with you that poacher style slob hunters are very bad people. I apologize for any harsh words
that I may have said in haste. I have hunted with groups, but each day I went on my
way and saw no one for the whole day, unless they came to help me skin something large
if I was lucky. For pheasants and quail, I have often hunted in groups, but this is pretty
much standard procedure. I find sitting or walking quietly in the woods to be relaxing and
if I find some game, good. If not, I am still quite happy to have been there.

The exception was my one African safari, a very different kind of hunting.

As to the .45-70 - the original topic - my personal experience is very limited, one zebra
and one wildebeeste, both with 1750fps 405 gr Rem JSP handloads. Both were one
shot quick kills, both bullets performed very well, even though they were being pushed
above their normal commercial loading velocity of around 1300 fps or so. With a hard
cast flat point, I think you could safely hunt any animal on earth, and it has been done
multiple times with such as the Garrett Hammerhead and Buffalo Bore. The Cor-bon
405 JFP has been shown to be an impressive penetrator, also.

My PH was not at all pleased that I had brought a .45-70, having had negative experience
with the caliber, which they are generally uninformed about. After discussion, I found that
they had seen 300 JHP high velocity loads used with poor penetration and poor results. I
assured him that my loads would behave very differently and he was polite, but clearly still
skeptical. After he had recovered my wildebeeste bullet, fully expanded yet intact after
breaking both shoulders of a wildebeeste and providing a quick and clean kill, he was very
impressed. He even said I could possibly shoot all the way through a zebra on a broadside
shot. This turned into a bet with the property owner who unequivocally stated that "NOTHING
will shoot through the donkey" - their slang for zebra. The shot that presented itself was
a frontal shot, and the penetration was about 3 ft, but a through shot was not possible at
that angle. It was a quick kill, the bullet taking the top off of the heart. The moderate
velocity JSP or JFP or hard cast FP will behave extremely differently from the HV 300 JHPs.

I almost brought a box of 405 Cor-bon JFP "Penetrator" loads, and wish I had. They would
have almost certainly given the end to end penetration on that zebra shot that Brian Pearce
had in his experience. This would have amazed the whole camp.

Compared to the .404 Jeffery, my hottest loads were about 100 fps short at
2050 or so. Given the stock design and low weight of the Marlin GG, they were
(even with a large recoil pad) pretty unpleasant. With a suitable hard cast
boolit, I'm sure they would work well, but I'm not sure that I wouldn't try them
at 1700-1800 fps first. I don't think the loss in velocity would be much of a
real hinderance. BruceB's experience is much more than mine and a buffalo
is larger than a wildebeeste, I think by a lot.

Bill

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Pat,

they made that up on a Disney show...

It would like having a camaro with Ohio plates run over your sister, and hearing that you tracked the driver down and shot him.

The ones I have shot have all just fallen over dead, the rest hauled ass the other direction. They did not follow us back to camp.

Rich

[PatMarlin]

I read a story last week in one of the gun mags (old) about it, I forget who was the author. Close call dangerous game story. I'll find it again in another 10 years.

Stack by the bed is pretty bad... :mrgreen:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
How could the 45/70 ' s ability be questioned?
Probably only by those who have not shot it.
I ONLY WISH I COULD AFFORD TO HAVE A PAIR , RIFLE & PISTOL SET, GLORY GLORY.
Heck I'd be happy with just one for that matter.:Fire::Fire:

[btroj]

It is not being questioned by American hunters but rather by Professional Hu tees in Africa. They do not know the history of the cartridge as it pertains to the buffalo hunters of lore. They know it from factory loads used on their game. Most often they have seen 300 HP ammo that does not penetrate well enough for much of the game they hunt.
We on this site know the abilities of a properly loaded 45-70 but we need to remember that not all hunters are as well educated on ballistics as we are. Most Hu ters also do not load their own ammo much less cast bullets. They only know what they have seen and when what they have witnessed had a poor outcome it is logical that they developed a poor attitude towards the cartridge.

Remember, a PH in Africa views a rifle as a tool. Not a hobby,not something to tinker with, but a tool required for a job. Does a carpenter in the US know the history of his hammer? The development of how it came to be? No, they only know what they can do with it.

While I disagree with those who say a 45-70 is not adequate for most African big game I can understand WHY they feel that way. Big difference.

Brad

[mroliver77]

Brad I guess it depends on if the professional is a class act or not. My profession is a builder. I swing a hammer or do masonry work from layout to finish work. I learn all I can about the job I am doing, the tools I use and educate myself with the knowledge needed to do a great job.Most of my friends have this need for knowledge also. I am always surprised when I meet a professional that only knows what he has to know to get by in his field.
I always figured that someone that depends on a gun to keep from being torn apart or eaten would have a darn good understanding of boolit construction and the strengths and/or weaknesses of the designs. I have been told I am naive.
Anyhow I would think a 500 grain solid at 2100 fps would have plenty of poop to do an elephant.
My whole life I wanted to hunt Africa. After learning how it is hunted I pretty much lost interest. The fellows over on Paco Kelly's Leverguns site have an annual SA hunt set up. The fellow that runs the guide service is lever gun and cast friendly. Good price too! In the US I can eat what I shoot though.
Jay
Jay

[btroj]

Sadly, most PH's are pretty lacking in rifle knowledge. They are , however, very good at understanding where to find game,using the wind, and judging trophy size.
Much of the lack of American rifle knowledge comes from the fact everything in Africa is so darn expensive. I was a 50 round box of CCI Blazer 22 rimfire ammo in the guys truck. He paid almost 4 bucks for 50 rounds. It takes upwards of 2 years in part of South Africa to get permit to purchase a new rifle.
I do give the guys I hunted with credit for one thing, they don't want anyone over gunned. They told me to bring the gun i shoot best. They like 270 to 30-06 class rifles for plains game. They at least understand the importance of a good first shot.
I know of Paco's annual hunts. I think they have a guy who is accustomed to lever actions and the capabilities of them. Luckily the guys who go are generally good enough shots and use adequate ammo so the PH hasn't become jaded.
We do need to remember that Africa is literally the other side of the world. They do not necessarily understand or follow us any more than we know or follow them and their society.
We have so darn many cartridges in the US that we have a hard time keeping up with them, it seems odd that we expect people who are not dealing with them on a regular basis to fully understand the capabilities of them, especially when we are speaking of specialized loads for a 45-70. Not defending the lack of knowledge as much as trying to explain why it exists.
Brsd

[watkibe]

We also forget that there is a huge difference between a stopping rifle and a hunting rifle.
Brad

I got my 45-70 1895G back when they first came out. I've always called it my American Stopping Rifle !

[Dannix]

For the first time in my life, I could understand and emphathize with the Indians when they saw what the Buffalo hunters had done slaughtering hundreds, thousands of animals for only the hides.
Not to stoke any flames here, but concerning this point, I was under the impression that it was the horse (via the Spaniards), not the rifle, that spelled the death to the buffalo herds. Apparently the indians herded them off cliffs to great effect, but to great waste as well. Course you couldn't blame them too much really as it brought them prosperity, but my impression was in the desire to be politically correct, this aspect is overlooked entirely.

As for the slob hunters, I wish they would give me a call before they went hunting -- I should use some meat and hide.