Almost had a bad morning

[grubbylabs]

I was loading some rounds last night for this morning so I could go shoot with a friend. I thought to my self - self tomorrow would be a good chance to work up some loads for the 44 mag. So I got my newly cast bullets, a pound of powder and my cast bullet load book. The first thing I did was look in the book and find what recipe I was going to use. I new that Lyman did not have a direct load for a 240 grain SWC and so I used some data from another 240 grain bullet with a similar profile. I remember thinking to my self - self are you sure you used that much powder the last time you loaded this bullet? Well I think so it is the load from the cast book. So I started out at the minimum of just over 10 grains of Unique and then I loaded some just above the minimum and a few more just above that. And thought to my self- self you and your friend are going to have a fun morning.:bigsmyl2:

Well this morning I shot some of my 45 loads (different story with a great ending:bigsmyl2:) And then I thought well heck might as well shoot the 44's so out they came.

But again something seemed odd, self I don't remember these loads recoiling so much, so I went to empty the cylinder and they would not come out. Strange I thought. So I eventually got them out and looked at the brass and at first every thing seemed ok, so I went ahead and put a few more down rang with the same results. This time I really looked hard at the brass and did a lot of feeling up and down the whole piece. That is when I noticed that it was bulged at the base. At the time I was very confused so I just put the gun and the rounds away and shot a different gun.

Once I got home and started thinking about it I realized that I did not use my Lyman book the first time I loaded those bullets but rather I had used my Hornady book. After looking at the Lyman book again and then looking at the Hornady book I realized I had almost double charged the loads on those rounds. I am sure glad I started at the minimum.

So I made a note in my Lyman book right under the load that I used last night reminding my self not to use that load but rather look in the Hornady book

[kir_kenix]

I've done similiar things. I'm glad you are safe and still have all your digits! Can never be too careful with this gun stuff. Have fun, and hopefully your next outing goes a little better.

[grubbylabs]

Yes I learned that keeping notes is very important. And thanks for your concern, all my digits and the firearm are intact.

[nanuk]

when I first started reloading years ago, someone told me to keep good notes.

I made up a form to enter data, and kept it in a binder.

I even numbered my loading sessions

somewhere I still have the original notes I made.

[HighHook]

10 gr is ok for the 44 mag. Are you saying you put in 20 gr. Ouch!

I bought a bunch of reloading stuff not to long ago and shot some 44 mags in the batch and almost ripped my hand off. Needless to say I pulled the tips.

Glad all turned out well.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'm wondering if you loaded 44 spl ?
and maybe used the data for 44 Mag in the Lyman cast manual ?
Jon

[grubbylabs]

Nope it was all 44 mag load data and 44 mag brass and gun. I think the profiles of the bullets were just different enough that it over pressured the round. They were both 240 grain bullets. I did not change my die any from the last time I loaded them so I am thinking I just seated the bullet to deep for that charge. The Hornady load seems like it would work with any generic cast or Lead SWC bullet, probably whey they max the charge out around 6 grains.

[garandsrus]

Grunny,

I think something else is wrong, like the powder you loaded was not Unique and in fact was faster burning than Unique. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists 6.0 to 6.9gr Unique for 429421 (245 grains) in .44 Special. The same boolit is listed as 9.8 to 13.0gr Unique for .44 Mag.

10 grains Unique should not have caused any problems with a 240gr boolit in a .44 Mag case.

John

[grubbylabs]

The load came from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition, the bullet is the Lyman 429667 and Unique is listed from 10-11.7 grains. My Hornady book 7th edition lists the load for a 240 grain LSWC using Unique starting at 5.7 and going to 7.6. So I can only assume that the Lyman bullet does not seat as deep as the Lee SWC mold that I use.

[Ole]

The load came from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition, the bullet is the Lyman 429667 and Unique is listed from 10-11.7 grains. My Hornady book 7th edition lists the load for a 240 grain LSWC using Unique starting at 5.7 and going to 7.6. So I can only assume that the Lyman bullet does not seat as deep as the Lee SWC mold that I use.

Hornady lists loads for their bullet, which is a bullet that is swaged out of soft lead.

10.0 grains with a harder 240 grain bullet should be safe in a .44 Mag.

I have a whole bucket of 10.0 grains of unique made with lead bullets. I use 200 grainers, but 240 should be a safe load under most circumstances.

[chris in va]

Something doesn't add up.

I'm no expert, having just started casting last year but just reading various loading data, I get the idea that a 240-250gr with 10-11gr of Unique should be just fine.

Lyman 49th
245gr SWC 1.71oal
9.8 - 13gr Unique

Alliant Powder reloading data
"Keith" 250gr 1.71oal
11gr Unique
1200fps

[grubbylabs]

I don't know what to say, I used a 240 grain SWC that I cast with a Lee mold. The brass was bulged at the base, the primers were flattened, and there was a bunch of lead in the barrel. I started at 10 grains and loaded a few of those then loaded a few with more powder. But when shooting I did not get past the the rounds with the minimum charge. I am 100% sure that I used Unique, I only ever have one powder on the bench at a time. And besides my other powders are stick, Unique is the only flake powder I have at the time. So I don't know what to think. Oh the COL was set at 1.610 as listed in the Hornady book.:veryconfu

[chris in va]

Huh. Powder measure acting up? Do you have a beam scale to verify?

[Heavy lead]

I use 10 grains of Unique over a Federal 150 (or RP 2.5) and the H & G 503 as my regular .44 mag load for almost everything when I don't want to strain the wrist. That boolit with my alloy is 260 grains, however being a Keith a lot of the boolit is out of the case. The Hornady swaged load would most likely be pushed way to fast with this and would lead like a house on fire as soft as it is and as little lube as it has.
Glad there was no injuries.

[grubbylabs]

Huh. Powder measure acting up? Do you have a beam scale to verify?

I did use a beem scale and when working up loads I always weigh each charge.

[GP100man]

Well ,with the Keith boolit most is out the case & the lee most is in the case .

A change in the combustion chamber makes a difference !!!

[grubbylabs]

Well ,with the Keith boolit most is out the case & the lee most is in the case .

A change in the combustion chamber makes a difference !!!

That is what I am figuring the problem is, The Lyman boolit does not seat in the case as far as the Lee boolit.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I have shot both of those boolits in my Rugers and my Mod 29 with that same load of 10 grains of unique. I have never had any problems with flattened primers or bulging brass. That load is not a magnum load by any stretch. I really think there is some other factors involved that you have not figured out yet. I would be more inclined to think that you had somehow double charged or something. I'm like some of the other guys, something is amiss. I once had a Ruger Red Hawk and I am sure that I had some how double charged an 8 grain load. I had loaded it with The Lee 240 boolit it actually weighed 245 gr. with my alloy. That thing kicked very hard and the shell stuck in the chamber and I had to use a wood dowell to get it out. The primer was severly flattened and the shell was bulged visibly.
That Lee mold was the only 44 mold that I had at the time, and it was the first 44 mold that I bought.
My 44 Mag Smith is not a Mod 29. It is a 4 screw (marked 44 Magnum). It's a pre Mod 29.

[dkwelder]

How about the Dia. of the boolit to big for the bore, and causing more psi ? slug your bore.

[MtGun44]

Diam has a relatively small, secondary effect on pressure.

Combustion chamber, however, does not have a small effect. Look at the amount of
chamber length that a 240 gr Lyman 429421 or similar real Keith will leave vs the actual boolit
used, considering the actual LOA set for your boolit and the normal crimp groove location
for the Keith.

Like the comment above 'Lot of boolit in the case vs most of the boolit out of the case
for a Keith'.

If the combustion chamber volume is correct, .44 Mag with 10 gr of Unique under a
Keith 240 cast is VERY normal load, well short of max and should generate 1000-1100
fps depending on gun and bbl length.

Possibly another powder?

Bill

[grubbylabs]

I am reluctant to think it is the powder because of how careful I am with open containers only one at a time. The other containers are on a shelf behind me while I am working. Not very likely that powders got mixed when only one container is ever on the counter at a time let alone open. Plus like I said the Unique is the only flake powder I have right now the others are IMR stick powders.

Plus I loaded some 45's with the powder from the same canister and they functioned as expected.

For these two reasons I am going on the assumption that the Lee bullet sits deeper in the brass than the Lyman bullet.

I did slug my bore and I bought the correct mold and sizing die for it.

[1bluehorse]

You got me curious so I went and measured some 245gr. "keith" style SWC bullets I have, cast from an RCBS mold. They measure .031 from the crimping groove to the base, (as near as I can measure with calipers) and the loaded rounds that I measured (10) were .0705 to .071. Whats the measurment from the crimping goove to base on the bullets you're using?? That should tell you how much farther the bullet you're using is being seated. My load for this bullet is 15.5gr. 2400 for about 1000fps. Pretty mild.

[MtGun44]

You must be off by one decimal. 0.031" is like a sparkplug gap, 0.31 would seem
to be closer, but I am far from home so cannot verify. You measured rounds at
0.0705" ???? Is this overall length? The empty case is well over an inch. Maybe 1.70"??

Bill

[1bluehorse]

Yep:oops::oops::oops:

[dverna]

Could another powder have been mistakenly dumped into the can of Unique?

Was the Unique bought from a dealer or at a gun show or given to you?

At least put that container aside until you are sure why the load appeared to be higher pressure than expected.

Buy a new container and work up from say 7.0gr. Can you get to10.0 gr with no issues?

Don Verna

[AZ-Stew]

What primer did you use?

A "hot" primer combined with a deeply seated boolit can cause a VERY significant difference in pressure as compared to a boolit that takes up less space combined with a load recipe that calls for a "standard" primer.

Just because the cartridge you're loading has the word "Magnum" associated with it, doesn't mean you should always use a magnum primer when loading it. I shoot .41 and .44 Magnums, as well as .45 Colt and .45 ACP, all of which use Large Pistol primers, but I only have Standard LP primers in my cabinet. This eliminates the possibility of mistakes. My testing showed no advantage to Magnum primers for my loads.

Regards,

Stew

[HATCH]

hell, my 41 mag load is 8.5 grains of unique with a 220 grain boolit

[SkookumJeff]

Interesting thread. The OP mentioned lead in the bore. How much lead? Could it be that every shot was leading the bore and because of that every shot had in increase in pressure from the steadily increasing lead in the bore?

[grubbylabs]

I bought the 1lb can from a reputable dealer in my area, this is the first time that I have had issues so again I am not suspecting the powder. It could be a primmer issue since I only load the magnum primer and those are all the primers I have. I ran this boolit through the gun before with zero leading as stated before I loaded this boolit with the Hornady data and had zero problems with it. I will be loading up some more for this weekend to investigate the Hornady load some more.

[dverna]

Grubby,

Start low and work your way up.

I nearly dumped half a powder measure full of Clays into a container of 2400 once. Made the amateurs mistake of having two different powder cans on the bench at the same time.

When I see a revolver with the top of the cylinder and top strap blown off, I know that could have been me if I had not caught my mistake. One time is all it takes.

Be safe.

Don Verna

[jmh54738]

IIRC, the OP stated that he loaded rounds at 10 grains, some with less powder and some with more powder and that he didn't shoot the rounds beyond the "starting" charge. In that case there must be rounds available to pull down for a through inspection of the powder and the weight of the charge.

[Mal Paso]

Diam has a relatively small, secondary effect on pressure.



I respectfully disagree. Using a proper fitting boolit in my 44s has increased the speed 100+ fps. I don't have pressure testing equipment but using charts for That powder and boolit it amounts to about 8500 psi.

Look at Lymans Cast Bullet #4, 44 Mag section where they used boolits sized .429 and the dismal performance they achieved. 18.5g of 2400 under a 429421 gets them 1087 fps. I get about 1220 ( 4" Colt ) with a cylinder gap the test barrel doesn't have!

[yobohadi]

I shoot the Lee 240 grain 44 SWC boolit without using a GC over 10 grains of Unique almost religiously, it is a nice light load for my 629 Classic. I am using regular LP primers, Lee Alox for lube, and I roll crimp in the crimp grove. I am not sure how much a magnum primer adds to the pressure, but if it is like adding 1 grain of powder or so, you still should have been under the max of 13 grains your load book states. These aren't 44 special cases by chance are they or are you putting a really tight crimp on the cases?

Oh, could you have had some other powder in the bottom of your powder measure from your last reloading session? Maybe enough for a few bullets? I did that once, the powder was under the baffle and I only caught a glimpse of it right when I was pouring in some new powder, luckily I caught it in time to only have to throw out a few hundred grains of powder.

Hopefully you figure this out, something is definitely wrong with that load.

[grubbylabs]

Grubby,

Start low and work your way up.

I nearly dumped half a powder measure full of Clays into a container of 2400 once. Made the amateurs mistake of having two different powder cans on the bench at the same time.

When I see a revolver with the top of the cylinder and top strap blown off, I know that could have been me if I had not caught my mistake. One time is all it takes.

Be safe.
I only ever have one can of powder on the bench at a time. and when I am done for that session I pour all the powder back into the can. I have a RCBS powder measure so it is a pain to unscrew it from the bracket but I figure it is the fastest and best way to get all the powder out. I even hold it up side down and work the handle a few times then turn it right side up pull the baffle out of the funnel then while holding the measure over the funnel again I work the handle a few more times just to make sure I have cleared the unit the best I can without taking it apart.
Don Verna


IIRC, the OP stated that he loaded rounds at 10 grains, some with less powder and some with more powder and that he didn't shoot the rounds beyond the "starting" charge. In that case there must be rounds available to pull down for a through inspection of the powder and the weight of the charge.

I pulled all the bullets that night and non were over charged. they were right where they should have been

[MtGun44]

By minor, secondary effect I mean that you are not going to blow up a gun with a
change in boolit diameter with an otherwise safe load. Sure it will go up some, but
secondary level, not primary level which can be a kaboom in the making. A primary
pressure effect, IMO, is something like seating the boolit deeper in the case.

Maybe my terminology is imprecise.

Bill

[firefly1957]

I use a Lee 255 (no longer available) in my 44 mag. it casts at 261 grs with wheel weight and 268 with softer range recovered lead. I crimp that bullet in the first lube groove to give the same case capacity as a Keith style bullet it shoots quite well out of my 8 3/8" Model 29.

Out of wheel weights I only lube two grooves but if I cast for 44 special I use soft lead and lube all three grooves crimping in crimp groove. This bullet shot at low velocity in a Charter Arms 3" Bulldog shoots very well. I have mistakenly loaded those soft bullets in 44 and they lead badly to prevent that I size and lube after casting so I know which are soft Three grooves lubed and which are hard two lube grooves.

For the problem under discussion I believe you have seated the bullets to deep for your reloading data. Some times I would like to see more seating depth data for reloads than overall length data as seating depth raises pressures Then again so does a bullet jammed into the rifling which is not a problem with a revolver.

[grubbylabs]

Well I loaded some more last night with the Hornady data and they shot great so I will just stick with the Hornady data for now.