Three 6.5mms

[Mike Venturino]

Hey There. I'm just sitting here playing with the computer and thought I'd post this photo of three of my 6.5 rifles. The Japanese Type 38 I've had for about five years. The Swede '96 I got about a year back and the Italian M41 has only been here a couple of months.

I can't wait till we get some decent weather to get more trigger time with them, plus the Swede M41 sniper I sent money off for today.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/pluming004.jpg

Thanks
Mike V.

[looseprojectile]

I have always respected the 6.5s because of how much they do with so little recoil and they are nearly all very accurate. I sure enjoy mine. Thanks for the show and tell. Great rifles.
Some 60 degree weather wouldn't hurt here also.
If you don't have the cruise missel boolit I could arrange for you to borrow the mould.

Life is good

[Mike Venturino]

Thanks for the offer. I'm not ready yet but I also hate to borrow stuff. Where abouts could one buy a cruise missle mould?

Mike V.

[junkbug]

This is the "Cruise Missle" mold. Still in stock.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000066.5SWED

Always though the M41 Italian was an under-appreciated rifle. Let us know how it shoots.

Thanks

Sean

[PAT303]

So Mike,is a future article coming on the 6.5mm?.If you want some hot weather I've got lots here. Pat

[462]

Mike,
Read your article about the 6.5s, in Rifle. My Swede is a year younger than yours -- 1901 -- and absolutely loves an old (oops, hope she didn't hear that word) Ideal (Lyman) 266469.

However, being a typical female, she can't make up her mind whether she prefers a certain dose of Unique or another of 2400. One day she's enamored with one, the next it's the other. Perhaps it has something to do with the time of the month.

Whatever. I'll keep loading rounds, giving her plenty of opporutnities to decide. If she ever does...

By the way, her eyes are better than mine.

[WineMan]

Funny how things change and then come back into fashion. Those 6.5's in Japan and Italy were replaced with 30 caliber rifles. Well a 0.303 and a modest almost 30 caliber in the 7.35 Italian. Today the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC are the talk of the Black Rifle town. The 6.5 with a 130 grain at 2500 fps is very similar in performance to the 6.5 Japanese and 6.5 Italian but does lag a bit behind the Swede. The 6.8 does seem more like a modest improvement on the 5.56 but most would agree a good one. It is more like the 7.35 Italian in performance. The Swedes kept their 6.5s longer than anyone else, maybe they knew something everyone else forgot? Accurate, long ranged and hard hitting the 6.5 may have the last laugh yet.

Wineman

[Dutchman]

An old supple Swedish sling makes a good substitute for the Type 38 Arisaka.

The most accurate 6.5 Swede cast bullet I've tried so far is 266673 150 gr. Using 13.2 grs 2400 I put 5 into 1 hole at 50 yds. I did ok with 266469 but not near as good as 266673.

IMO, the cruise missile is not a good choice especially not one of the current MidSouth molds. Way oversize. I've gotten decent accuracy from Gardner's early droppings of the cruise missile as they're correctly dimensioned. But still they tilt and don't stabilize.

When I was trying to find the seating depth of 266673 I started out way long trying to feel the start of the rifling. I never did find it in my Gustaf 1915 m/38. The nose diameter is .256" and body .266". Apparently the adage to size for the throat didn't apply to this rifle.

http://images28.fotki.com/v988/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSCF2109cb-vi.jpg

You can see how little of the boolit I have in the neck searching for the seating depth.

http://images43.fotki.com/v679/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSCF2077cb-vi.jpg

This has become my standard ammo testing rifle. The bore size gauged with a precision pin gauge at the muzzle is .256". I'll do some more load testing in the m/96 when we get some warmer weather. The m/96 has a new barrel.

http://images53.fotki.com/v443/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSCF1392yy-vi.jpg

This is the best I've done with the early cruise missile from Gardner's Cache (correct size). 13.8 grs 2400.

http://images41.fotki.com/v1580/photos/2/28344/157842/65x551701382400ab-vi.jpg

Best I've done with 266469 and 10.5 grs Unique @ 50 yds.

http://images41.fotki.com/v1580/photos/2/28344/157842/65x55140105Unique1b-vi.jpg

Best yet with 266673 jusing 13.8 gs 2400. All these fired with the same scoped m/38 so's to minimize variation.

http://images58.fotki.com/v696/photos/2/28344/157842/020x2-vi.jpg

Musketry school 1903.

http://images47.fotki.com/v422/photos/2/28344/5902270/l_19031_tif8215542206258649814-vi.jpg

[Von Dingo]

I really enjoyed your 6.5 article too. Have fun with the new to you M41 when you get it.

[Shooter6br]

Use Lee Cruise Missle in 6.5 Jap sporter No GC 14 g 4759 about 1500 FPS. Nice gallery load. I use it unsized at .270. Jap is .268

[DJ303]

I picked up a sporterized Swede recently at the local gun show. This spring's project will be getting a good cast load for it. I picked up the cruise missile mold, and have been searching for information on the 6.5. I'll see what it will do if winter ever ends!

[Four Fingers of Death]

I readily acknowledge that the 6.5Swede is one helluva cartridge, but they just don't press my buttons. I have one which is in excellent condition (and a few sealed packs of old Norma ammo). I also have a 6.5 Jap 38, complete with quillion handled bayonet. Now that one interests me!

[Mike Venturino]

Who makes that mould for Midsouth? Is it aluminum or iron? I have a Lyman mould on hand whose number I don't remember right off. It shot good in the 6.5mm Type 38 but that's all its been tried in so far.

Mike V.

[TNsailorman]

Mike, I believe the mid-south cruise missle mold is made by Lee and is aluminium. At least that was what I was told when I inquired about it. Also the reason I didn't buy it, Lee molds have been hit and miss for me, some close to diameter ordered and some not. James

[DJ303]

It's a Lee aluminum mold. Mine drops 172gr. .267"

[looseprojectile]

eighteen bucks for a mould. Even with shipping a man can buy that mould for about what the postage would cost to borrow one.
I have to admit that I have not given that boolit a really fair trial as I have only tried a few light loads. When tried at over 1600 fps it tended to shoot poorly.
Have considered shortening the mould by milling off the top of the blocks.
Probably lap the nose out a little also. If you don't like to tinker there are probably better boolits for the 6.5mm rifles. I only tried one alloy.
All that said, that boolit at 1,600 fps will handle putting down anything I have ever hunted. Went all the way through, the deer, and the raccoon. My dog wanted to chase the raccoon off. It wanted to fight.
Except for a couple of custom makers I consider a new boolit mould as just raw material to make a good one out of.
Keep up the good work Mike.

Life is good

[Four Fingers of Death]

Cast Bullet Engineering (CBE) in Sydney make an excellent mould for the 6.5. they ship worldwide.

[doubs43]

I've gotten excellent accuracy using the 168 grain RCBS gas check mould and 21.5 grains of AA-1680 in the 6.5x55mm Swede.

Mike, I recently sold a beautiful 1923 Model 96 Swede rifle that was marked with the Finnish Army "SA" in a box. It was 100% matching, un-threaded muzzle, and truly NRA excellent or better.

I also have a Type 38 Japanese rifle with bayonet & scabbard. It was one of six that my uncle sent home from Okinawa in 1945. He gave it to me in 1960 or 1961. The bore was pristine but, while I was stationed overseas, someone in my family shot it with war surplus ammo and didn't clean it. Now the bore is the proverbial sewer pipe. They ruined a beautiful rifle.

[nicholst55]

I sold my 1900 CG Swede in a moment of weakness, and have regretted it ever since. I may have to break down and replace it one of these days.

[Linstrum]

I cannot speak for the Japanese and Italian rifles, but I have two Carl Gustafs Stads Swede 1896 Mausers, one an original configuration 1896 made in the early 1920s and the other the shorter barrel 1896/38 also made in the early1920s and updated in 1938. Both are about 1 minute of angle or better shooters using the Saeco .264 dual cavity 140 grain mold, which is iron. Most Swedes vary a little in bore diameter, running somewhere around 0.266" to 0.268" from what others have told me about their particular rifles. Mine are no different, they slugged at 0.266" and 0.268" so I lapped out one mould cavity in the block so it drops boolits at about 0.269" from that cavity and about 0.267" from the stock cavity. One of the problems with the Swede is loss of accuracy with cast boolits over about 1600 feet per second from the extremely fast twist of their barrels. With careful lubricant and powder selection some shooters are getting about 2200 feet per second. I am running about 2000 feet per second right now using Johnson's paste wax and IMR 5010 powder normally used for the .50 BMG. It is possible to damage the Swede Mauser with IMR 5010 even though it is an extremely slow powder, so if you use a slow powder in your Swede, or any 6.5 mm rifle, work your loads up just like you were using IMR 4895. I don't have my notes with me, otherwise I'd look up what powder charge I am using. The combination of the Saeco 140 grain boolit sized 0.002" larger than slugged bore diameter in conjunction with IMR 5010 powder gives me excellent results in both my Swede Mausers and I would not be afraid to go after white tail with that load combination.


rl942

[Four Fingers of Death]

As a matter of interest, there are new Swede barrels for sale in Australia for $AU390. Mind you, a year or two ago, we wouldn't have paid that much for a complete rifle in excellent condition!

[Mike Venturino]

I was fiddling with more photos this evening and came across a photo of another 6.5mm. This is the Type 44 and a fellow gave me one back in December. Appropriately it arrived on Christmas Eve.

This isn't it. This is a friend's. The one I received is in better condition - mum and all. I haven't fired it yet - snow, wind and all.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/pluming002-2.jpg

Mike V.

[C1PNR]

DJ303,
That looks like one Heck of a fine Project! You must keep us up to date on your testing.

I like ALL of the Surplus Rifles, well, OK, MOST of them anyway,[smilie=l: but I really like the Carbine length.

[CLAYPOOL]

I had a Jap. 99 gave to me a few months back. Didn't know what it was as the mum's gone + every thing else expect the serial #. WE think kids were allowed to play with it as the bolt is gone. Also 2 layers of shoe (?) material is nailed to the butt with small nails. I went to the Boonville, Ind. gun show last weekend and saw a few complete ones. So It was I.D. A few screws + the ladder sight is gone also. It has spent a lot of time in a out side shed..so..I was also gave a Weaver J..2.6 scope. It looks to be 3/4" in Dia. Rear lens is loose, but you can see through it. Post + Hortizonal cross wire. Kindaw neat..I haven't seen either ones of those for MANY years...
CLAYPOOL

[Four Fingers of Death]

I had a Jap. 99 gave to me a few months back. Didn't know what it was as the mum's gone + every thing else expect the serial #. WE think kids were allowed to play with it as the bolt is gone. Also 2 layers of shoe (?) material is nailed to the butt with small nails. I went to the Boonville, Ind. gun show last weekend and saw a few complete ones. So It was I.D. A few screws + the ladder sight is gone also. It has spent a lot of time in a out side shed..so..I was also gave a Weaver J..2.6 scope. It looks to be 3/4" in Dia. Rear lens is loose, but you can see through it. Post + Hortizonal cross wire. Kindaw neat..I haven't seen either ones of those for MANY years...
CLAYPOOL

Not much good as a rifle and too short to be used as a tomato stake :(

[scrapcan]

We must be careful when we ask for 50 an d60 degree weather here in the western US. We had and have 50 degree weather here is south east wyoming, but we also have 50 mph winds.

Nice rifles Mike. If you need to borrow a 6.5 mould I would loan the 45 2.1 designed Group buy mould that was used for some testing back last year by Larry Gibson.

[doubs43]

The military rifle I'd love to get my hands on is an original M904 Portuguese Vergueiro, made by DWM and chambered in 6.5x58mm. I have a fine example of the Mauser rework M904/39 that is chambered in 8mm Mauser but the original has always intrigued me. I seriously doubt that too many exist.

[Combat Diver]

Nice rifles Mike, like your article in Rifle also. My uncle gave me a Type 38 with the mum still on it but the bore was never cleaned so it is also a sewer pipe. I've never shot that one. My mother recently found which I hope is my missing Swede 96 carbine. Both are at her house down in San Antonio and I don't know when I'll get down there to pick them up.

CD

[Linstrum]

- - - My uncle gave me a Type 38 with the mum still on it but the bore was never cleaned so it is also a sewer pipe. - - -

CD

Hey, Combat Diver, the Arisaka rifles had chrome plated bores, so your Japanese rifle just needs a good scrubbing out and it'll be shiny as new!


rl950

[doubs43]

Hey, Combat Diver, the Arisaka rifles had chrome plated bores, so your Japanese rifle just needs a good scrubbing out and it'll be shiny as new! rl950

Unfortunately, the Type 38 rifles are likely to have normal bores without chrome plating. They were made before the Japanese began protecting their bore with chrome. I won't say that the last production Type 38's didn't have chrome bores but mine isn't and I can't recall ever seeing or even hearing of one that was.

[JSH]

Not to hijack your thread Mike but this wil pertain to the 6.5's.
My Swede shoots exceptionally well out to 100M, scary really.
Know the problem. It flat comes apart and will not group past that. I have tried different powders and speeds etc with no luck. I forget what the bullet was but it is a bore rider. I have picked up one of the early NEI moulds but have not had time to try it as of yet
I don't have a leading problem either bore cleans up with just a couple of patches of Ed's red or kroil.
I suspect as it loses speed it is getting very unstable, but I have not seen any sign of key holing on paper. It acts mor like it is picking up the twist. Hold center and it may hit at 6 o'clock' same hold and it may hit at 9 or 3 o clock. Somthing of a big round pattern.
James and I saw this happen with the wheel guns and decided that it was predictable enough to just change or windage. It doesn't apply with the random hits with this rifle though.
Any help from you gents would ceratainly be tried.
Thanks
Jeff

[calkar]

The 266469 has been pretty stable for me out to 300m. Before the weather turned crappy I was keeping them in about a 5gal. bucket offhand. That was with just 16gr of 2400, but not quite snappy enough to knock down high power silhouette pigs though.

[Linstrum]

Hi, doubs43, you could be quite right, it may be that the Japanese mainly did the chrome plating as a refinement on the 7.7 mm, and then only on the ones before they got into the "last ditch" 7.7 mm production when the war was coming to an end. The first Japanese rifle I ever saw was a 6.5 mm that was a mess outside, a bit rusted with dinged up wood, but the guy who had it said to look down the bore and it was shiny as could be! It was either chrome plated or had had some good care with regard to the bore.

Maybe Mike can take a look at the bore on his and see what it looks like? Now I'd like to know!

rl952

[Linstrum]

Not to hijack your thread Mike but this wil pertain to the 6.5's.
My Swede shoots exceptionally well out to 100M, scary really.
Know the problem. It flat comes apart and will not group past that. I have tried different powders and speeds etc with no luck. I forget what the bullet was but it is a bore rider. I have picked up one of the early NEI moulds but have not had time to try it as of yet
I don't have a leading problem either bore cleans up with just a couple of patches of Ed's red or kroil.
I suspect as it loses speed it is getting very unstable, but I have not seen any sign of key holing on paper. It acts mor like it is picking up the twist. Hold center and it may hit at 6 o'clock' same hold and it may hit at 9 or 3 o clock. Somthing of a big round pattern.
James and I saw this happen with the wheel guns and decided that it was predictable enough to just change or windage. It doesn't apply with the random hits with this rifle though.
Any help from you gents would ceratainly be tried.
Thanks
Jeff

Hey, JSH, about your Swede that goes to pieces beyond 100 m. I have two Swedes , a m96 and a m96/38 and neither of them do that, so it could be the boolit you are using if it is 160 grains. Since you don't have leading then your lube is probably going okay, otherwise I'd say that your lube may be contributing. If you recall, the longer the projectile is the higher the rotational velocity or rate of twist it needs to stabilize it, and I have stayed away from the 160 grain 6.5 mm boolits because of stability problems due to its length. I have used 160 grain copper jacketed okay, though, but they are driven pretty fast compared to cast. Unfortunately heavy bullets are needed to carry knock down energy and the little 140 grain just does not do as well as the 160 grain at the low velocities obtainable with cast in the Swede, so we use 160 grain to hit harder but the down side of using 160 grain cast is they can't be driven fast enough to stabilize well. As a result they destabilize long before they get out very far. So your thought that the boolit is becoming unstable at about 100 meters is a very astute observation! A few of us have been getting better than the 1600 feet per second that is the rule of thumb for the Swede's high rate of twist by using very slow powders and using 140 grain boolits cast in linotype or other fairly hard alloy. I use a special alloy I concocted that contains phosphorus and copper as hardening agents (about like linotype, try that and see what it does for you) and by estimation of my powder charges I am getting around 2200 feet per second using IMR5010, which is a .50 BMG powder. Some other Swede shooters are getting similar results with other slow powders like IMR7828 and WC860. The boolit I'm using is the Saeco 140 grain .264 that is about a 2-radius nose profile. I had to lap my dual cavity mold out to drop the boolits at 0.002" larger than bore diameter, which in my case are 0.267" for one rifle and 0.269" for the other. As I recall the Saeco normally drops them at 0.267", so you may not need to lap it if you go that route, depending on what your rifle bore slugs at.

So, try some real slow powder like IMR7828 or IMR5010 in conjunction with the 140 grain Saeco .264, I think it is the only .264/6.5mm boolit mold Saeco makes. Warning: Do not try using a full cartridge case of slow powder with the 6.5 Swede, start REAL conservative at about 30 grains of IMR7828 (unless there is a listing in the load table for that powder), or about 39 grains with a .50 BMG powder and work up slowly since I got signs of high pressure even with a .50 BMG powder way before the case was full.

Maybe we should get off this thread and start another one since it is hijacking it, maybe the others here will continue adding their thoughts as well, we'll get it figured out.


rl953

[Chris Smith]

I have one of the "cruise missle' molds and mine produces bullets at .270. One thing I did find out about the bullet is that if it isn't gas checked it will leave a lot of it's self in the barrel. I cast from wheel weights and the lube I tried was melted Rooster Red. I didn't have anything else at the time. Gas checks cured the leading problem though. I have a Lyman 266673 that I bought for my Type I. It does ok but I probably need to use a different lube because with the long barrel and only one lube groove I get leading from this bullet. I should have opted for the Loverin style that Lyman selld. I can't recall the number but it has lots more area for lube. I currently have some Lyman Super Moly lube and it seems to be good but my results in the smaller 6.5s has showh that I need something else, I think. My Carcano 41 does pretty good with the cruise missle and 18 grains of IMR-4198. No idea about velocity but I can't see the bullet in flight.

[calkar]

boolit sizing, alloy and velocity is top priority, lube is low on the list. I have been using scrap toilet rings and jpw. My bores never lead and rarely have to be cleaned.

[rla1000]

Mike, please heeeeelp!

I just read your piece on these three rifles in one of my shooting mags and now I can't locate it. I have looked through every mag in my "current" stack five times cover to cover, along with the past few GD annuals, and still no luck. Hopefully you'll come back to this thread and can enlighten me as to which mag and which issue. A big thanks. btw, the article was outstanding and I am looking to it to help guide me in purchase of an M96.

[doubs43]

rla1000, try "RIFLE" magazine, March 2011, page 64.

[rla1000]

rla1000, try "RIFLE" magazine, March 2011, page 64.

Thanks doubs, sounds right, will do. I can't imagine how I could have missed it.

[Mike Venturino]

rla1000: Sorry I didn't get back to you faster - been to a gun show all weekend. No treasures found though.

Thanks
Mike V.