Which bullet? (hunting)

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Ok guys, I have the lead alloys, the sizers and now the molds but I can't decide which will work the best for me.
I have the Lee 309-200-r and the 309-170-rf.
I want to reach 2000fps or more if possible but I'll be happy with 2000.

I want a 200 yard antelope stopper.
My powder of choice is Reloader 7.

Which bullet will fit the bill?

[stubshaft]

Which cartridges are you loading for?

[quilbilly]

Not knowing what caliber you are loading for I would probably opt for the 170. I have been so happy with the accuracy and terminal performance of the Lee 160 out to 300 yards in my 30-30 that I ended up throttling back my velocity while achieving the more than adequate terminal results (penetration and wound channel). I am now shooting at just under 1600 fps and the firearm is so pleasant to shoot that my wife likes it. At that velocity it is still devastating at 200 yds.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Oops! My bad, I'm loading for 30-06

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Ok, so the 170 is looking promising mostly because of it's flat meplat and it's lighter which will allow higher velocities at lower pressures.

Is 2000ish fps a feasible velocity to shoot for?

[onondaga]

H4350 gets superb velocity with low pressure in the 30-06 with 170 gr cast bullets. Check out Lee data on 168 gr cast bullet in their #2 manual pg. 153 compared to the higher pressures with other powders and that weight bullet. H4350 would be a hands down winner in my opinion.

Your bullet, gas checked of course, should easily peak accuracy well over 2000fps. The pressures are really low with H4350 and the 168 gr. cast bullet example, at 51 gr. H4350 velocity is 2510 fps and pressure is a very low 40,700 psi. With that powder, your group size won't likely start tightening up till you get well past 2000 fps.

40.0 grains H4350 pushes the 168 at 2050 fps with 28,700 psi. My estimation is that your accuracy will peak at about 2300 fps or higher with this powder and gas checked #2 alloy. That would be 47 gr H4350 @ 2330 fps and 34,200 psi for that bullet.

I would be ecstatic with numbers like that and run out and get H4350!

If you study up you will notice that REL #7 has the highest pressure of all recommended powders for that weight bullet in the 30-06 ( see Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition, pg 152) Personally, that would talk me into making another powder selection for cast bullets in the 30-06.

Gary

[HighHook]

That lee 170 is deadly accurate. That is the key...

[missionary5155]

Good morning
What are you hunting ? Be a bit different hunting corn crunchers or porage eaters..
I do like those little fellers looking at the lens.

[Bret4207]

IMO and IME anything with a FP will always work better than anything with less of a FP. 2K is easy with decent fit and you should be able to do it with common WW alloy.

[1Shirt]

Like Bret says anything with a wide flat nose of the 150-200 grain vintage. Lots of loads will get you to 2K, the trick is to find the most accurate at that vol. You might also want to consider nose softened hard base blts. Might check the threads on that subject.
Good Luck!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Alright guys, thanks!

[sqlbullet]

34 Grains of Varget + .75 gr polyfill and a 200 gr bullet should give you 2000 fps. This load will deliver a 3-4" group with iron sights from my Garands at 100 yards. It may do better. That is about the best I can do with iron sights at 100 yards. I am sure a more precision rifle will do better.

I just got back from the range with my 300 Win Mag and some 200 gr loads. I shot about a 2" group at 100 yards. I used toilet paper for filler, but think that group would be smaller with some polyfill instead. According to Lee's multipliers, this load should be making 2300 fps at the muzzle and 43647 PSI of pressure. Finding similar pressures and velocities in a slower powder in 30-06 should give similar results.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

I'm hunting pronghorn antelope in WY.

I took 2 using Jwords last year but I wanna push myself and try something a little more challenging like using cast.

My Lyman manual shows 25 gr RX7 pushes it around 1600 at 13000 psi starting load.
It tops out at around 45000 psi @ 2500 fps.

If I'm only pursuing 2000-2200fps, wont I still be in soft enough pressures?

[Larry Gibson]

"I want a 200 yard antelope stopper"

That being a seemingly important criteria I would test the loads at 200 yards for accuracy. The 170 gr FN would also be my choice. I'd also use a 3/4 gr dacron filler over the RL7. The suggestion of a slower powder si also a good one; I'd try RL19, AA4350 and H4831SC. I'd also use a dacron filler with any of them with a less that 80% load density.

Larry Gibson

[RobS]

onondaga's suggestion is good regarding the use of a slower powders as they will fill the case better and they can provide a gentler push on the cast boolit however if you have a short barrel then it is maybe not be as good if too slow. Too slow of a powder for barrel length can result in muzzle blast of the boolit as it exists the muzzle due to the powder not burning adequately in the barrel. It can be a fine line between too fast of a powder for the desired ease of a cast boolit into the start of the barrel on initial ignition and too slow of a powder can effect the launch due to the powder blast at the muzzle.

[onondaga]

The Lyman book load you mention for Rel #7 has CUP pressure units, this is not PSI.. I am not ready tonight to give pages of explanations with voodoo math conversion formulae for average pressure versus peak pressures units that are only + or - 3000 units anyway after doing the math. But Blackhawk, please do notice that REL 7 does have the highest pressures in the group of powders recommended by Lyman for that bullet weight, as I said, and I assure you that H4350 is very significantly lower in pressure but specified in PSI by Lee . Firearm manufacturers standard for barrel pressure is in PSI not CUP. Many loaders have no clue about the difference between CUP and PSI and the reloading manuals and powder manufacturers have done a great disservice to safety by not clearly pointing out the difference or standardizing to one type of pressure measurement. It appears that the letter "c" after the amount of pressure listed in your Lyman book was meaningless to you. The examples in this post wouldn't put you in danger personally with cast bullets and load pressure but the same amount of misunderstanding pressure units with jacketed bullets easily could put you in danger personally.

REL #7 is a nice clean burning powder in many applications, but in the specific instance you are looking to use it, the pressure it generates borders on being very impractical for use compared to H4350 with a cast bullet in the 30-06. Certainly, in a 12-16 inch barrel, I'd go with a faster powder than H4350, you did not mention a carbine or a pistol for this load. I assumed a standard rifle barrel length for the 200 yd antelope shooting with a 30-06 as you mentioned.

Gary

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Alright, I'll give it a try.
Thanks

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Would 748 work also?
My manual doesn't show any loads for 170gr bullets with 4350, only 210gr

[45r]

You might want to give H-4895 a try,that powder is very flexable and burns good in 308 and 30-06 without being too fast or slow.You can load it down 60 percent and still get good accuracy.Some use a dacron tuft to get lower ES.

[onondaga]

It is the Lee book that lists the H4350 on the page I cited above.

748 is not listed in my books with this bullet weight but H335 and BL-C(2) are nearly identical in burn rate and both listed by Lee for 168 gr cast bullets.

A look at reloadersnest.com shows 748 used in a variety of bullet weights from 110 to 180 grains but does not list a 160 or 170 gr bullet.

The 180 gr Rem PSCPL load for the 30-06 lists 45 gr. maximum @ 2315 fps.. A reasonable starting for your cast 170 gr bullet would by my approximation be about 35 grains of 748. However H748 is a relatively fast, low bulk ball powder and that low volume would likely have ignition problems without a safe filler. So, I couldn't recommend 748 to anyone using your bullet that hasn't demonstrated a completely safe record with ballistic fillers. 35 grains of H748 is less than 1/2 case volume of a 30-06 That is a problem for ignition with H748 as it is a position sensitive powder and it may detonate or squib with such low volume in the 30-06.

If you are powder shopping, Accurate Arms 5744 is designed for cast bullet loads and is not position sensitive with low volume loads. Their manual is available at their home page to download. Their 30-06 loads with 5744:

5744 160gr LYM RNGC 27.0gr 2,085fps 34.5gr 2,525fps @ 41,800PSI 3.035LOA
5744 173gr LYM FNGC 25.0gr 1,920fps 32.0gr 2,337fps @ 41,100PSI 3.015LOA
5744 200gr LYM RNGC 22.0gr 1,625fps 30.0gr 2,134fps @ 42,000PSI 3.250LOA

Download PDF Manual from Accurate:http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

The load for the 173 gr LYM FNGC is a good starting place for your 170 gr bullet.

Gary

[felix]

Do not undercharge 748 !!!!! H335 is much safer at 80 percent than 748. 748 goes wild very fast without prediction. However, 748 does not exhibit this wild phenomenon when overcharging. This info is from powder(s) manufactured years ago. ... felix

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Ok I'll look into buying some 5744

[mroliver77]

I like 4895 for boolits or bullets in the 06. 2000fps with accuracy is pretty easy in a decent 06.
I don't have any notes handy but with dacron filler and a well fitted boolit 2200 - 2300 fps is not that hard to pull off with 1-1/2" groups. Some development will shrink these groups some.
Personally if I were in a situation where I might take a 300 yard shot I would push the boolit 2200+fps keeping the trajectory as "flat" as possible. I don"t want to have to think about holding over or under but just aim and touch one off.
I have found that WW boolits can break at these speeds but adding 2-3% tin to WW makes the alloy very tough and it will hold together well. The 170 flat nose Lee or similar meplat boolits traveling at 2200+fps mushroom well if hitting a solid spot like a deer shoulder or a pigs boiler room. I have never shot a light skinned animal through the ribs with this boolit but would imagine lots of damage. For the little speed goat a soft point cast might be in order.
I insist on testing my hunting loads in wet newsprint at the ranges I will be hunting at. I have got a rude awakening a couple times when my theory was found to be off and the boolit failed. This could have resulted in a bad hit in the field. After correcting the alloy for the speed, testing showed positive results and the hunt went well with boolit performing as I intended.
Boy, this sounds very involved but it really is not. The testing gives us much needed trigger time anyhow.
Jay

[Blackhawk45hunter]

More trigger time is why I started reloading in the first place so it's all good!

[mpmarty]

Onondaga (Gary) is giving you some very good advice. I'd follow it and thank him.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Onondaga, thanks for the tip, I bought some 5744 this morning and after 30 rounds I have minimal leading, tomorrow I'll put it on paper at 100 yards.
I'll let you know how it goes.

[onondaga]

I use a different routine at the range for cast bullets. A Hoppe's Bore Snake is great.

I use an egg timer for 3 minutes between shots and pull the Bore Snake through once after every 5 round group. This works for me. Other than that I do no cleaning or oiling bore till end of season for storage.

Have fun, be safe and shoot well.

Gary

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Thanks man!

[pls1911]

Lots of technical discussion here... so I'll keep it simple.
I've not had the success of others with Lee Bullets (but the RD 165 made be Lee is great).
If your bullet properly fits the throat and bore of youre gun it should work fine.

I use 25-26 grains Rx7 pushing a 160 through 190 grains in several Marlin 30-30s.... 1800-2100 fsp, and my pressure limits are much less than our (30-30 vs 30/06). The limiting factor is the combination of alloy, hardness, twist rate, and pressure. The charts and programs I've seen are good reference points, but none factor in all these points to a specific powder or presure/velocity gradients...
The best reference is experience you find on these pages... just wish I could capture it all in print!!

Lyman Cast bullet handbook 3rd edition indicates a 200 grain bullet at about 29 grains of Reloader 7 for around 2000 fps and pressure less than 40K.
I'd recommend 26 to 28 grains reloder 7 and practice... know your bullet and trajectory.
An altenative is 35 grains of 3031 ... about the same velocity, but pressure lower than reloader 7.... and of course practice.
I also recommend a good rangefinder...cheap insurance against misjudged ranges.

Low antimony heat treated bullets hold fast to rifling without the brittleness of linotype when the strike game.
Bullet placement is the key a shoulder shot will drop 'em in their tracks.
That placement with a low antimony, heat treated pointy RCBS 160-SIL (bore rider spire point target) from a TC 30-30 dropped a 300 pound broadside sow DRT.... I did not recover the bullet, but the off side had a hole as big as an orange... after having penetrated a lot of meat, BOTH shoulders and the spine.

If you'd consider a new mold, I suggest either a RCBS 180-fp (usually casts 190-ish) or an old mold for Lyman 311284. Heavy bullets for sure, but at 190 fps. cast soft and heat treated, both are accurate, buck wind pretty well, and are very deadly.

Good luck...

[dualsport]

I've come back to this mold after having it for many years unused. My project is a good 200 yd. silhouette load for a 30-30 M 94. I've been tinkering with Frank Marshall's 311284 30-30 load, but decided I wanted a slightly lighter boolit. With my alloy, high tin, they come out .300/.311, barely. Still just a tad small on the nose for my Winchester, so applied Frank's 311284 trick to the Lee boolit, barely bumping it in a Lyman 450 .312 die. Gets the front of the nose up to .301/.302, lubes and seats gas check. It's easy to overdo it, a light touch is all it takes for the slight increase on the nose. Doing so also puts a small meplat on the tip, like Frank's BOWMs. Now they can be loaded to just engrave on the rifling with the hopefully accuracy enhancing benefit of aligning things up better. These are single load only. The gas check is inside the neck which I like. The Lee 200 is much shorter than a 311284 but still heavy enough for what I want. My $25 mold is giving me 194 gr. beautiful round and consistent boolits. Of course I haven't shot them yet, but will try a range of powders, fast to slow. There's a cb sil. match coming up at Lincoln Rifle Club in Lincoln, Ca. We'll see. My 94 is a shooter, doing very well so far with cbs using a Williams peep sight. I love my deluxe and/or custom molds but it's fun to make a cheap mold perform. I also have the other Lees in .30 but went with the 200 for wind bucking and potential hunting load possibilities. This match has a 1600 fps speed limit but will try loads up to 1900-2000 fps also for my own uses which should put it in the big game class. Range report to follow. EDIT: It was a bust, they leaded up my Winchester. Back to the drawing board.