Shooting the Cruise Missile in my recrowned CARCANO

[DoctorBill]

I posted earlier about having my Carcano M-38 Carbine always Key
Holing when shooting the LEE Cruise Missile.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/38599/master/1/?

Someone said that that bullet just doesn't work in the Carcano.

I said I was going to figure out why - i.e. "rubbish".

I now have some fascinating results to relate about my recrowned M38 Carcano Carbine
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1144758&postcount=38
scoped with a Tactical Red Dot scope and how it reacted to

1. The unmodified 170 gr GC'd LEE Cast Cruise Missile (CM) bullet

2. A cut back to 139 gr un-GC'd LEE Cast Modified Cruise Missile bullet - I call it the C2M2.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=103567

3. The Hornady 'special' 160 gr 0.268 Jacketed bullet made for the Carcano.

http://www.mynetimages.com/a4bea555fc.jpg

I loaded the Full size GC LEE CM and the Special Hornady 0.268 Jacketed bullets
with 11.5 gr of Trail Boss (80% of filled case).

The Cut back CM was loaded with 25 gr of Prvi Partizan powder left over from
taking 120 of the ‘normal PP Carcano’ bullets apart (bullet to small – 0.264 size).

Prvi Partizan had 33 gr of powder pushing a 139 gr FMJ BT 0.264 bullet, which is too small
in diameter for my Carcano Carbine. I saved the bullets for my Swedish Mauser…a true 6.5mm rifle
and am reloading the Boxer primed Brass.

At 80 meters, the LEE CAST 170 gr Cruise Missile made round holes !
The Copper Jacketed Hornady Bullets (if they hit the target at all) all keyholed.
http://www.mynetimages.com/2dd5a7bbf3.jpg

The cut back LEE CM was shot at 50 meters and was mostly making round holes,
although starting to go key hole.

http://www.mynetimages.com/da85a8a155.jpg
I love this Trail Boss – no kick to speak of ! Like shooting a 22 long rifle round.

I did not measure the velocity as it was colder than a Witch’s private parts on Halloween
(don't ask me how I know that !) and was having stiff fingers from the cold.

Now – what is with the Copper Jacketed 0.268 bullet key holing and the LEE CM
giving nice round holes !?

As Ricky Ricardo would have said on I Love Lucy, “Somebody got some ‘splainin’
to do !”

DoctorBill

[Bret4207]

Why? Fit of the cast vs fit of the jacketed, dynamic fit I mean. If you were to up the pressure/speed a bit the jacketed bullet might well straighten out. This could be especially true if it's one of the gain twist Carcanos.

greater minds than mine are up on this Carcano stuff, but keyholing is nothing but a result of poor dynamic fit, that is the boolit/boolit isn't happy with the twist/size at that velocity/pressure. Hope that makes sense.

[nwellons]

How did you cut the Lee bullet?

Thanks, I'm pretty new at reloading but may need to cut back a similar bullet.

And another newbie question, why is it called a cruise missile?

[adrians]

it;s soooooooooooo long!! hence "cruise missile"

[DoctorBill]

Is the Italian Carcano THE only rifle with made "Gain Twist Rifling" ?

If not, did/do other rifles with gain twist do this same key holing ?

We need FACTs, not opinion.

Apparently some Black powder and artillery pieces had Gain Twist....
Did those artillery rounds land going sideways ?

I was told that the Cruise Missile "is just not suited for the Carcano" -
yet just yesterday, I got it to run true at 80 meters.

What is that all about ?

Did the Carcano get trashed because the Kennedy Conspiracy theory had
to have Ostwald shooting a bad rifle to support the Grassy Knoll theory ?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_53/ai_n19313646/?tag=content;col1 many pages!

If we are going to throw opinions around, I still hold MY pet theory that the gain twist
is still torquing the bullet just as it breaks free of the barrel rifling, thus giving it a kick
in the pants as it jumps off the end of the dock, as it were.

The Steam Catapult on the end of (British ?) Aircraft Carriers has a raised "bump"
that gives the aircraft an upward kick as it leaves the deck - to help it stay airborne.

Saying that the Cruise Missile is inappropriate for the rifle is saying nothing and only goes to
killing any curiosity and further inquiry.

DoctorBill

[geargnasher]

You will get told many things in life as absolutes, when it is only the result of one man's experience, which is limited by both his tools, knowledge, intelligence, ability, judgment, and reasoning capability. You've probably seen the threads on the Cruise Missile and Swedish Mauser, you know how much heated argument that subject creates and how many experiences can be directly opposing in their results.

In the end it is up to YOU to find what YOUR guns like by going out on a limb and experimenting like you have. You know you have a stability issue in several cases and you made a change to your mould that fixed that, now you have to turn your patterns into groups. Shooting a plain-based boolit that small accurately might be a challenge, but I think it can be done at the right velocity and if you're very, very careful with how you launch it.

If I were you, I'd never load TB in that caliber again. TB is about as fast as Bullseye, and it gives that pb boolit a real smack in the pants. Good for initial obturation, bad for skidding the rifling, distorting the boolit, and giving a really spikey pressure curve.

I personally would try a much slower powder that will still keep your velocities under about 1400 fps to prevent leading. One way to do that is with Unique or 2400. I would use an even slower powder like RX7 or 4198 with a tuft of Dacron on top, but while that will work with J-words or checked boolits at much higher velocities, it would take a serious undercharge to keep under the reasonable velocity limits of your plain-based boolits, an this can be dangerous if not done correctly.

Some other members might suggest using a REALLY slow powder and a compacting filler, but we'll see. That can be kind of tricky to pull off.

Gear

[DoctorBill]

On the way home from the range, I was thinking about the Trail Boss versus a
slower burning powder.

If the Gain Twist Rifling is still giving the bullet a rotational torque at the very last
moment coming out the barrel, high pressure of the powder may not have any effect.

The bullet is at its highest velocity just as it leaves the rifling - but if its
last contact with the rifling is a continuing torque, then that torque might start the
bullet to tumbling. With normal rifling, the bullet would already be turning at its terminal rpm's.
With Gain Twist, the rotation rate is ever increasing...up to and out of the barrel.

Good idea at the beginning of the barrel - bad idea at the end of the barrel.

I will try some slower powder, but get pounded here about SEE if I even
bring it up.

Tried COW, then decided to unload the reloads - found the COW had solidified !
I think COW should be oven dried before using it - to get the moisture down.
I now have used Cotton. Want to try oven dried used coffee grounds !
Have some "Puff-Lon" on hand - light cellulose with Moly and an anti-caking agent. ?????


Geargnasher -

Thank you for your considerate, considered and very interesting reply and suggestion !

DoctorBill

PS - Was this particular rifle (M38) ever made with a non-Gain Twist Barrel ?
If so, I could buy a another used Carcano normal twist barrel and switch them.

Has anyone ever dealt with NUMRICH ? Antiquated web site and they DO NOT answer
any E-Mail. You HAVE to call them....slow getting parts and no tracking numbers...

[geargnasher]

DoctorBill, thanks for the kind words. I have to watch it recommending things to people I don't know. While unlikely, it IS possible to have problems undercharging certain powders. I have had some pretty good success doing it with 4198 and RX7 in a particular (in medium sized cases), the Dacron "fools" the powder into thinking it's in a smaller case, so it burns like it's in a .22 Hornet. Fluff the Dacron and DON'T tamp it down against the powder. If fluffed enough two grains will fill an empty case, to give you an idea of how little Dacron you need. I don't like compacting fillers, dense fillers, or cereal fillers in bottleneck cases because it's too easy to overdo it or to get the moisture problem you have experienced already.

I don't think the gain twist is your problem, I think your launch and your pressure curve is your problem, this is more or less an educated guess from my tinkerings with the Swedes and this boolit. The Cruise Missile has a tendency to wobble and tumble, in some cases before 25 yards, in guns that Do NOT have a gain twist. It's a problem common to the boolit design, things have to be just right for it to work. Chopping 1/3 off of it might help the stabilization issues. Just keep trying stuff, if you aren't trying for screaming velocities with cast bullets you'll find the sweet spot sooner or later.

I also think the Trail Boss is your problem with the J-words, you might blow the gun up before you got enough velocity behind that bullet to stabilize it. For J-words, you might find that something like H414 (Winchester 760) will give good results in the mid-to-upper 2k velocity range, it worked well with my scoped Swede with 160-grain Sierras, printing 1.5" ten-shot groups at 200 yards and 2750 FPS, I'm not exaggerating.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

Gear

[DoctorBill]

Again, geargnasher, thanks for the useful information !

A friend of mine who shoots competition Black Powder cartridge rifles
thinks maybe this Hornady "Special" 0.268 Jacketed bullet is still not big enough.

So - I have a question.

I would like to see what the Hornady bullet and the LEE Cruise Missile look like
after being shot out of my Carcano M38 Carbine.

Would simply a primer shove it thru the barrel ?

If not, how about 1 grain of Reloder 15 ?

Am thinking of firing such into some wet old rags with the rifle horizontal and
a pile of wet rags a foot away right in front of the barrel.
A log after that just in case....

I could shoot it into a 5 gal plastic bucket of water, but the powder would fall
to the front of the case pointing the rifle down into the bucket.
Maybe wouldn't matter, even then.

If it doesn't go all the way out, I could tap it all the way out with a wood dowel.

I am curious as to how deep the rifling is going into both the Jacketed bullet and the
WW cast GC'd Cruise Missile !

Am also wondering what Liquid Alox would do if I lubed the Jacketed bullet ! ?
Maybe dip the bullet into my Lead Pot and coated it with lead.

I have 93 of them left ! Can't use them in anything else !

What do you folks think about that ? Ever done such a thing ?

DoctorBill

PS - THIS is FUN !

[BeeMan]

DoctorBill,

Re: pushing a bullet just clear of the bore to check rifling or 'power' slug a bore:

Straight wall cartridges work on maybe .5 to 1.5 grains of Bullseye speed powder. How much depends on barrel length, bullet weight etc. Work down rather than up, and remember cast is easy to drive through compared to jacketed. A stuck slug is a real possibility with jacketed; be sure you can accept that risk.

Paco Kelly and others talked about slower powders like 2400 in ultralight charges, but no experience here with those.

Slow slugs that exit can bounce back with some force if they hit a hard chunk of firewood.:oops:

Google ultralight loads and you should find some data.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[geargnasher]

For lead boolits, start with a fast pistol/shotgun powder like Clays, Titegroup, Bullseye, etc. Start with three grains and work down. Shoot into a cardboard box filled with crumb rubber mulch from Wal Mart (ground-up old tires), treat it like you're using full-power loads, (eyes, ears, backstop, etc.). Go down on powder charge until you can capture the boolit a few inches into the mulch, it will be virtually undamaged.

For jacketed, measuring your fired lead slugs should be a good enough comparison for diameter. When in doubt, slug the bore by hand to get the groove measurement. If the bullet is .001" under groove diameter, I'd say it's perfect.

Gear

[Bret4207]

Bill, were it me I'd use a standard starting load from Lyman or Speer or whomever for the jacketed and see what it does when pushed at jacketed speed and pressure. Longer bullets often need more speed (rotation) to stabilize.

Does you rifle have the gain twist? Not all Carcanos did. My concern with fast powders and gain twist is that the rifling form impressed into the boolit changes over the length of the barrel offering, in theory at least, the increased chance for gas cutting. Thing is we don't know if that theory holds water or not. The old gain twist rifles of the 19th century shot very well using black powder which is much more "explosive" than our fast smokeless powders. Of course many of them were paper patched too, so maybe that adds something to the mix.

As far as facts about gain twist, there are books out there that have complied the scores shot over decades with gain twist barrels. Somewhere in my collection is a book of the first few years of "Shooting and Fishing" which was the forerunner tot he American Rifleman IIRC. It has the scores from the big matches and information on the rifles and equipment used. If memory serves the gain twist idea fell into 2 camps- those that believed in it wholeheartedly and those that despised the idea. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right?

I leave it to you to make up your own mind.

[DoctorBill]

Has anyone who is reading this thread ever had a bullet, Cast or Jacketed, get stuck
in the barrel ?

I bought some wood dowels about six months ago to slug my MilSurp rifles,
but didn't buy any 1/4 inch ones for 6.5mm.

Today I will obtain some.

If a Jacketed bullet were to not make it thru, it shouldn't be all that difficult
to pound it the rest of the way out.....right ?

Given that Cast Bullets should be less resistive to the barrel, I think I will
attempt a primer only with the Cruise Missile first.

I know that tapping a lead slug thru a barrel is not difficult.
Been there - done that.
I will run an oiled (ATF) patch thru just before to lube the way....

The Copper Jacketed one is a new one for me, however.
I wonder if Liquid Alox coated onto an FMJ would actually help get it out ?

BTW - The Prvi Partizan round sold in stores (with a bullet too small in diameter)
employs 33 gr of some unknown powder for a 139 gr FMJ - I used 25 grains of that
powder for a 160 gr JSP - probably 30 gr max would be OK for the heavier Hornady bullet.

DoctorBill

[blackthorn]

I would not use wood dowels to slug a bore or to try to pound out a stuck bullet (especially a jacketed one). You REALLY do not want to have to deal with a split, jammed wooden dowel in addition to the stuck bullet!

[Bret4207]

DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT ATTEMPT THAT BILL!!!!! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!


If you stick a boolit or bullet and attempt to use a 1/4 wood dowel to drive it out you will have a 1/4' wood dowel stuck in you barrel too. Try it this way- get a 1/4" STEEL rod to drive it out. Or better, start with a low powered load you know will clear the barrel and work down until you can catch the slug before it deforms on impact in a big box of rags or something.

[geargnasher]

DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT ATTEMPT THAT BILL!!!!! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!


If you stick a boolit or bullet and attempt to use a 1/4 wood dowel to drive it out you will have a 1/4' wood dowel stuck in you barrel too. Try it this way- get a 1/4" STEEL rod to drive it out. Or better, start with a low powered load you know will clear the barrel and work down until you can catch the slug before it deforms on impact in a big box of rags or something.


+1.

I don't know why slugging the barrel with a j-word even came up, I would never attempt to do that. If you must know how the j-word is engraving, shoot one into a box of mulch or something with a decent amount of powder and look at the recovered bullet.

Slugging with dead-soft lead is really the only practical, accurate way to determine land and groove dimensions.

Use a soft lead sinker weight or a cruise missile cast from soft lead and either a brass rod or a steel rod wrapped in electrical tape to drive it through.

Gear

[DoctorBill]

I anticipated you....went out and bought a 3 ft long 1/4 inch steel rod at LOWE's today.

I also bought a 3 ft by 4 inch section of plastic drain pipe and an end cap.
I plan to fill it with Bird Seed (been feeding the birds off my back porch this winter)
and shoot the low speed bullet into the pipe's other end covered with a paper cap.
The Bird Seed is very dense but flows easily (round seed) and should stop a bullet
just barely coming out of the Carcano.

Idea - I have a 'Butt Load' of Ground English Walnut Shells for brass polishing.
15 lbs, in fact - Zilla Reptile Bedding from the pet store - dirt cheap....
I wonder how THAT would work ? !

I will butt the nether end against my concrete basement wall just in case -
maybe place an old phone book between the pipe end and the wall....
I'll wrap the pipe in some plastic bags in case the impact bursts the pipe.

I'll try 2 gr Bullseye - fired into a hillside and work down first - then the pipe/birdseed.

I will let you all know when I do this.

If I never post the results, it is because I killed myself in the attempt (lol).

BTW - WalMart won't be selling the ground tire mulch for another month or so....damn!

DoctorBill

PS - geargnasher....Bret4207.... blacthorn -
I have used wood dowels before to slug with soft lead.
Works great. Cut it into 8 inch sections - stack the sections until the slug is out.
You just tap away and it is obvious if it isn't going easily that one should stop.
The wood looks none the worse for wear !
But the metal rod makes me feel better....always good to feel better !

I do listen and learn.

[DIRT Farmer]

To push bore slugs I buy brass rod at the hardware store. I have used steel rod wraped with eletrical tape, but will use brass if I can find it.

I have been following this thread as I have a CM that will not shoot in my 6.5x55. Thanks for working on it.

[DoctorBill]

I don't see how a steel rod is going to hurt the rifling if the edges are chamfered.

The force being applied is parallel to the rifling.
One wrap of tape should keep the steel from contacting the rifle's interior.
Maybe putting some electrical shrink wrap on the business end would be better - less likely to come off.

Cutting the rod to smaller lengths (8 inches ?) will also keep the rod from bending
while you are tapping on the end.
If it goes completely into the barrel, add a second section on top of the
piece that went in.

Is the crown of your Swedish Mauser OK ?
Wouldn't take much to make the bullet fly wrong....

Just a thought.

DoctorBill

[geargnasher]

One of my Swedes has a recessed target crown courtesy of my local Gunsmith, the other is stock. The CM tumbles from both of them unless things are perfect. "Perfect", I might add, is a moving target. What works one day won't the next.

Gear

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/8D65C37E75D7824/standard.jpg

Top 2 targets are the CM fired from 2 Swede milsurp rifles with the exact same load. Left target a M38 (24" bl) Right target M96 with 29" bbl & is 100 fps faster.

The bottom 2 targets used the Lyman 268645 design @ 152grs.

http://www.fototime.com/9CC81583032A470/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/371130D084561ED/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B26D2494941FFC5/standard.jpg

I have 2 Carcanos. This is a M91 Moschetto TS in 6.5mm I really haven't done much with it. It was made AFTER Italy capitulated at the national arsenal (FNA-B) Fabrica National de Armas - Brescia. I also think it may never have been issued. Doesn't look like it. The barrel slugs .257" x .268".

http://www.fototime.com/9C06A0D0704C216/standard.jpg

The other is this M1938 Fucile Corto in 7.35 x 51. It has the boxed "SA" so it'd been to Finland as Axis aid. In the photo it has an incorrect straight handle bolt wich was subsequently replaced with a correct bent bolt handle. I don't recall the bore but it has a .300" groove and the chamber is so tight I had to turn the casenecks to get a cast lead slug sized .301" to chamber. I gather very tight chambers are common for the M38 FC's.

http://www.fototime.com/8E76CD481DC236C/standard.jpg

In this photo of a 7.35 x 51 loaded round, you can see the caseneck has been turned. The bullet is the Hornady 123gr SP @ .298".

http://www.fototime.com/058EDB5DDBDF445/standard.jpg

These targets represent the M38's first outting with cast lead. The boolit was the Lee C309 - 160 - R which weighed 153grs. It was first lubesized in a .308" die and then sent up through a .301" push through die I'd made. The nose mic'd .300" and I forget the bore of the Carcano, but the boolit had to be seated a bit short. The sights of the Carcano are such that the front blade has to be barely visible in the rear 'V' in order to hit in the black at 50 yards, the distance at which these were fired.

I don't have the velocities at hand but a couple were right at 2000 fps. I know that #5 was one and either 6 or 8 was the other one. I do have the old Ideal 300136 mold for the 7.35 Carcano, which if I'm not mistaken Beagle sent to me many moons ago. Thirty cal GC's are a fairly casual fit on the GC shank, so I may have to open that up one of these days (if I live long enough :-)). I don't know if it was the very loose GC's or what, but boolits from that mould didn't fare half as well as the much sized ones in the targets above.

Maybe in the next couple weeks I can get some ammo for the 6.5mm loaded up and shot, just to see what it acts like!

................Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

Buckshot -

I am very interested to see whether or not your 6.5mm Carcano key holes with the
170 gr Cruise Missile !

Is the barrel crown in good shape ?

Every Carcano that I have run into in gun shops seems to have the barrel crown
all beaten to Hell !

Like they were dropped tip first out of a big truck onto cement or something...

There is an old beat to Hell Carcano in a shop where I just bought my second
8mm Steyr-Mannlicher Carbine.
Front sight Bayonet mount sawed off.

They want $40...WTH....for $40, I can play with it !

Price of a MacDonalds Visit for me and my family....

Hmmmmm......

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I tried to "Fire Slug" my M38 Carcano Carbine with a LEE 170 gr .268 sized,
lubed and Gas Checked Cast Cruise Missile.

Had a 4 inch dia 3 ft long plastic drain pipe filled with Bird Seed to capture the bullet.

I tried 1 grain of Bullseye and the bullet made it up the barrel about 2 or 3 inches.
Pounded it back out the Receiver end with a 1/4 inch dia steel rod.

I also then tried 3 gr of Bullseye and it came out like a pistol shot, went thru
the side of the drain pipe about a foot from the shooting end and I found it
in the plastic garbage bag I had wrapped around the pipe in case it burst.

Long story short - the bird seed beat the hell out of the bullet !
Looks like it has been on some country gravel road for a week !
Wow....

Here is what I pounded back out of the barrel when it didn't make it thru.

http://www.mynetimages.com/6d26bdbf0c.jpg

The lands look fairly deep. The bullet did not scrape into the grooves very far.

I think this bullet fits my barrel nicely.

The jacketed .266 Hornady "Special" made for the Carcano got stuck with 2 gr of Bullseye.
Here it is also pushed back out the receiver with tapping on the steel rod.

http://www.mynetimages.com/09d44ae914.jpg

Looks fine as for rifling engaging the bullet, also.

I guess the next Jacketed bullet variable to examine is velocity....

DoctorBill

[Russ303]

I use some old al cleaning rods with a cleaning tip cut off to give it a plastic tip like the tip of a pool stick.

[chevyiron420]

I have heard that some of the carbine barrels are cut down rifle jobs, and the faster part of the gain twist has been cut off. So they dont like lower velocity loads.