Catastrophic Failure - Swedish Mauser m/1896

[Dutchman]

I don't remember if I ever posted these photos in this forum but with the other topic of the Spanish 1916 catastrophic failure http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34549 coming up I thought it might be a good idea to have this as a separate subject.

The difference between the Spanish 1916 failure and this Swedish Mauser is we know exactly what caused the Swede to come apart. It was a double charge of fast pistol powder. The rifle resides in the UK so these photos were obtained for me by another very knowledgeable Swede collector who's USAF duty station is in the UK.

The Mauser m/1896 was taken out of general military service in Sweden some 12-15 years ago due to a bolt lug failure killing a young Swedish soldier. There are some m/94 carbines in use by the Livguard who has duty at the royal palace in Stockholm and their rifles are carried locked and loaded so they are not ceremonial. Swedish Mausers do fail in normal use many times for reasons that are not obvious. I would prefer to urge caution and care when handloading or shooting rifles that are 100+ years old. Metal fatigue is cumulative. If you feel the need to hotrod a Mauser do it with a 98 action.

http://images53.fotki.com/v440/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSC_0277cre-vi.jpg

http://images56.fotki.com/v542/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSC_0276re-vi.jpg

http://images20.fotki.com/v534/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSC_0275re-vi.jpg

http://images20.fotki.com/v528/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSC_0274re-vi.jpg

http://images20.fotki.com/v528/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSC_0273re-vi.jpg

http://images53.fotki.com/v440/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSC_0272bre-vi.jpg

http://images110.fotki.com/v565/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSC_0272re-vi.jpg

[dromia]

A salutory warning that behoves us all to take heed of what we shoot and how we handload for it.

Was anyone hurt?

[PAT303]

There was allot written about the 96 in Oz when one blew to bits and we had ''experts'' coming out of the woodwork saying how dangerous they are.The rifle had had a scope mount arc welded to the reciever ring and the heat had caused the steel to change colour which obviously changed it's heat treatment but no one seemed to worry,old rifles are dangerous and that was that.I personally will shoot my 96 as long as my eye's work and enjoy it to the fullest. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with Pat.

I do not consider "a double charge of fast pistol powder" as "hotrod(ing) a Mauser ". I seriously doubt a M98 or any other action would have fared much better. Loading a cartridge to potential for the action used is not "hot rodding" to me. We have seen numerous very similar photo's of modern actions from M70s to M700s to Weatherbys to most any other action that suffered very similar catastrophic failures. When we find the truth of the matter they were all caused by some error in loading causing SEE or an obvious overload as in this case. The problem was one of human error not metal fatigue. I shall also continue to load my M96/M38s to the same levels that I have been. I choose not to blame the inanimate object for a human eror. Everyone else is free to make up their own mind.

Larry Gibson

[blastit37]

Human error can certainly cause metal fatigue and that action HAS metal fatigue.

[Dutchman]

I do not consider "a double charge of fast pistol powder" as "hotrod(ing) a Mauser ".


I included that comment as a post script. You decided it was the context of the entire post and proceed to pick it apart in your usual contrary manner.

To be clear, nowhere in my note did I say I thought a double charge of fast pistol powder was hotrodding a Mauser. Nor did I suggest metal fatigue was the cause. I could have included more of a preface to those comments but I erred in supposing the reader of the comments would put 2 & 2 together.

My intent here is to prevent injury and destruction. I'd ask what your intent here is but I just don't care.

Dutch

[MtGun44]

Looking at the last picture, an excellent very sharp close-up shot.

I am seeing pretty good indication of a fatigue crack that went from the lower right of
the action ring, starting at the first thread and spiraling up and left, thru the whole
ring. The final piece of failure on the right side has the sort of smeared look lump and
then down the side parallel to the bore. This is all that was holding the action together
when if finally failed. It would not require any particular overload to cause the final
failure since a huge portion of the strength was gone due to the very large fatigue crack.

It would be interesting to know if the action would have showed up a on a magneflux or
zyglow check. I think it would be very likely since it appears that the crack had made it
out to the external surface. The biggest problem in finding cracks is if they are inside
where you cannot see them.

A very close inspection of an old rifle's action, with a very bright light and a 10X magnifier
would likely find this sort of crack. The good news is that the portion of the action that
is very highly stressed, and therefore would develop a fatigue crack, is pretty small in
square inches, so a good, slow, look for cracks would not really take a lot of time other
than pulling it apart to get full access to the front action ring all the way around and getting
the metal very clean.

Bill

[quasi]

a 98 Mauser is no stronger than a 96 Mauser. 98's do handle escaping gas better than a 96, but a 96 still handles escaping gas much better than Sako's, pre-64 M70'S, M-17'S, 1903 Springfields ...

[Larry Gibson]

Deleted the message, not worth causing an uproar over nothing. My apologies to Dutch for the inconvenience.

Larry Gibson

[madsenshooter]

I was loading some 30-40s just the other day, using the 10B101 that Jeff Bartlett is selling now. I was about to put the boolit on and took a look into the case. My, that's a bit fuller than the last one! Something had interrupted me in the process, and sure enough I'd double charged it. Pictures like those above have made that last peek an absolute must. They are therefore well worth posting Dutch, no matter how much debate they generate, or from whom. There are a lot of others visit here who don't have the level of experience as some of our more seasoned loaders. They'll benefit from seeing what could happen with only a moment's carelessness. Keep them coming! They speak for themselves.

[Dutchman]

I was loading some 30-40s just the other day, using the 10B101 that Jeff Bartlett is selling now. I was about to put the boolit on and took a look into the case. My, that's a bit fuller than the last one! Something had interrupted me in the process, and sure enough I'd double charged it. Pictures like those above have made that last peek an absolute must. They are therefore well worth posting Dutch, no matter how much debate they generate, or from whom. There are a lot of others visit here who don't have the level of experience as some of our more seasoned loaders. They'll benefit from seeing what could happen with only a moment's carelessness. Keep them coming! They speak for themselves.

Your note is exactly why I take the time to post notes like these. Thank you for recognizing that.

Dutch

[excess650]

This is EXACTLY why I don't load smokeless in my M71 or 71-84 Mausers!:groner:

[Larry Gibson]

I add that maddenshooter's caution/reasoning should apply to all actions, new or 100 year old military ones. I don't think there is any "debate" about that. We've seen many new and "modern" actions in similar condition from the same high pressure load mistakes or SEE.

It should also be noted in many instances a "double charge of fast burning powder" is and of itself not dangerous and does not produce any over pressures for the cartridge/action. It is only when the double charge is sufficient to produce a serious over pressure is there a problem. That is not to say we can or should be sloppy in our loading practices as safety is paramount regardless of the charge.

If here is any "debate" here it is on the assumption that old and tired actions are not suitable for standard acceptable loads/pressures because "metal fatigue is accumulative". Presenting such photo's as a basis for that assumption is debatable. Dutch "would prefer" to advise lessor loads. Many of us disagree and advise that such actions are entirely capable of still handling normal pressures, there in lies the debate. Any disagreement has nothing to do with double charges of fast burning powders or overloading the cartridge otherwise.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

Clearly, some old rifles have fatigue cracks. "Fatigue" by itself is a meaningless term in
metallurgy and machinery. If there is a high enough local stress that is repeated many times,
a crack can form. This is a fatigue crack. After it forms, it can travel and increase in size. Unless
there is a substantial crack, "fatigue in the action" or "fatigue in the metal" is a meaningless
statement.

Old metal is just fine, unless it is CRACKED. If cracked, it may also be fine if the crack is
small enough. Too big a crack and there is a serious safety issue. Understand that old metal
may have a poor pedigree, but pretty much whatever it was when it was made, unless cracked,
it is still the same. Now clearly old steels were MUCH more highly variable in their makeup and
in the understanding and execution of heat treating. For example, the poorly heat treated
early 1903 Springfields. Some old alloy steels were brittle originally. As a general rule,
high quality German or other European steels were pretty good from about 1900 on, less
certain earlier. As you move to lower industrialized countries, or just further back in time,
the risk of poor steels from poor knowledge or poor quality control increases a lot.

Zyglo crack detection is pretty affordable and I have a long unused kit at home. It consistes
of first a cleaner spray (a lot like carb or brake cleaner) and then a very low viscosity red penetrating
dye spray which is lightly sprayed on the area to be crack checked. After a few minutes the excess
is wiped off and a developer is sprayed on. The developer looks like white very flat paint. It is actually
just a white powder applied with a fast drying carrier solvent. If there is a crack, the red dye goes down
into it, then the white powder will suck the red dye back up making a red line in the pure white developer
coating where a crack exists. Simple, non-destructive and effective. Developer just wipes off, dry powder
very evenly applied.

I think I am going to spend some time going over my older milsurp rifles with my Zyglo kit when I get
back home.

Bill

[blastit37]

When an Engineer uses the term "fatigue", a crack is understood to be present. No crack, no fatigue.

[Dutchman]

If here is any "debate" here it is on the assumption that old and tired actions are not suitable for standard acceptable loads/pressures because "metal fatigue is accumulative".

Be more accurate in your quoting of what you think I'm saying. By misquoting me you change the flavor of the discussion.



Presenting such photo's as a basis for that assumption is debatable.

Once again I would advise you to make more of an attempt to comprehend what it is you're reading before you jump into something so quickly.

No where did I mention or suggest or say or imply that the photos were the result of CUMULATIVE METAL FATIGUE.

So it seems you're saying that metal fatigue being cumulative is a debatable assumption. Is this right? (rhetorical question.. please don't waste any more of my time answering)....

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1107&bih=509&q=metal+fatigue+cumulative&btnG=Search



Dutch "would prefer" to advise lessor loads.

You, Larry, are not authorized to speak for me.

No where, at any time, in any way did I make a statement that I advise "lessor loads" (quotation marks are yours not mine). You are attempting, very poorly, to steer the flavor of this thread that I started and are now changing it to suit your egocentric and obnoxious pattern.

If you continue on this path(ology) you're going to learn what my limits are for dealing with pathogens.


http://www.materialsengineer.com/CA-fatigue.htm


Fatigue Failure Analysis

Metal fatigue is a significant problem because it can occur due to repeated loads below the static yield strength. This can result in an unexpected and catastrophic failure in use.

[PAT303]

I was loading some 30-40s just the other day, using the 10B101 that Jeff Bartlett is selling now. I was about to put the boolit on and took a look into the case. My, that's a bit fuller than the last one! Something had interrupted me in the process, and sure enough I'd double charged it. Pictures like those above have made that last peek an absolute must. They are therefore well worth posting Dutch, no matter how much debate they generate, or from whom. There are a lot of others visit here who don't have the level of experience as some of our more seasoned loaders. They'll benefit from seeing what could happen with only a moment's carelessness. Keep them coming! They speak for themselves.

The one reason I use Trail Boss,it's impossible to double charge in the cases I use. Pat

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have seen two Swedes give way. Someone mentioned that they were as strong as 98s. I can't see that being right. The 98s have an extra lug apart from anything else. I have seen 98s fire incredibly hot charges and the bolt had to opened with a lump of wood. One had lug set back. The Swedes tha I have seen let go popped the barrels out and sent the extractors into orbit, but sort of held together apart from that.

There are many Swedes out there that have had the lugs set back but the owners are unaware of it. Strip the bolt, fit it back in the rifle, pull the closed bolt towards the rear and holding it there, try and open it. If it binds or catches, the rifle has sustained damage and metal has flowed into the split lug and that is where it binds. I found this out the hard way and we endedd up trashing the bolt and action and using the rest for spares. The gunsmith who pointed it out to me said that it was pretty common. He bought the rifle off me, removed the action from the stock, stripped the bolt and put the action and bolt under the dropsaw in front of me.

Don't hot rod Swedes, stick to something safer like juggling chainsaws or racing motorbikes.

[1Shirt]

Sure hate to see pics like these. It is sort of a loss of history! Love my Swedes, along with the rest of my milsurps. As always, I value Larry Gibsons thread greatly. Regarding the issue of double charges of fast burning powder, I am a great believer in the following:
If the powder does not fill at least half the case (a double charge would be up in the neck or overflowing), weigh the finished ctg's. If one weighs appreciably more than the others, you probably have a double charge, and need to pull the blt, and varify. Takes but a few minutes and it can save, good old rifles, and possibly good old shooters. The little battery powered scales make it fast and easy. It is important when doing this however to have the same brand/weight/batch etc. of brass. It is also important in my opinion to never reload when loading.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Freischütz]

I'd like to emphasize the importance of a final visual check of the powder level in a case.

Once, while checking 30/06 cases, I noticed that the powder in one case was higher. It wasn't enough to be a double charge. It was a layer of tumbling media that didn't pour out.

[heathydee]

I blew a Swede up eight or ten years ago and cannot find the photos . A 1906 Carl Gustav . Mine split the front receiver ring and spat the barrel out the front . Scope disappeared over my right shoulder ; bent like a banana . The plastic , Weatherbyesque style stock ended up in two big pieces (one in each hand) and many little ones . No extractor to be found . Damage to the magazine box and floorplate similar to the above photos . The fractures showed the same crystaline appearance as above .
The load I was testing was 15 grains of AP 70 behind the CBE 150 grain boolit and I had fired several rounds , inspecting primers for signs of pressure , before the detonation . Primers were well rounded and there were no signs of anything out of the ordinary . The last shot impacted (the one that did the damage) in the same 100 metre group .
Everyone said " You double loaded a case" . I did not , because my reloading procedure prevents that happening . Primed cases sit upside down in the loading block and after charging with powder , a boolit is seated immediately .
Secondary Explosion Effect . I do not know . AP 70 has a burning rate about the same as Unique and SEE is more likely when using half full cases of slow burners .

The following may have contributed to weakening the receiver .
The front receiver ring had been drilled and tapped when I bought the rifle . The job had been botched ; the holes not being at 12 o'clock but a few degrees away . I had a gunsmith TIG weld the holes up and re-drill and tap .
I had replaced the barrel with less than adequate tooling and the action had twisted slightly causing the bolt to bind . I responded by twisting the action back the other way until the bolt move freely . I know now how dumb that was . Don't bother telling me again .

Subsquently I have seen another couple of Swedes that exhibited a crack where the ejection port joins the front receiver ring . The three o'clock point when viewed from the rear .

I still own and shoot regularly a 1942 Husky but use full cases of slow burning powders .

[Larry Gibson]

Well Dutch, not much left to say except that I don't believe threats and insults are necessary.

I took your original post to say exactly what you say it doesn't say. Could be my fault, could be you just didn't state it clearly. At this point it doesn't much matter because we have a difference of opinion. You've stated yours and I've stated mine. I guess it rests there. I'm finished here.

Larry Gibson

[HollowPoint]

Some of you may have read about the Lee Enfield that I had blow up in my face a while back.

I thought that was bad, man, after looking at these photos I thank God it was nothing like this.

These photo's have "MAJOR CATASTROPHE" written all over them.

HollowPoint

[1Shirt]

Blowing up one is one to many. Know that from experiance!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Multigunner]

Hodgdon's loading data for IMR 4007 SSC powder indicates relatively low pressures for full velocity loads, at least in the .303.

Perhaps this powder is the answer for getting acceptable performance from these old rifles while taking it easy on the actions.

[303Guy]

I am seeing pretty good indication of a fatigue crack that went from the lower right of
the action ring,I'm not seeing it (not saying it's not there, just that I can't see it from the photo's). What I do see is some serious bolt lug recess setback. That gun had a serious headspace issue. We do know that these Mausers have a problem with case head separation in that once separation occurs the gas pressure acts on a much larger area wich overloads the action to failure point. And that case head clearly separated from the case body (the case body is still in the chamber). It kinda puts paid to the theory that case grip on the chamber walls reduces bolt face thrust. It does but if the case head comes off then we have a problem. Usually what happens, I think, is the case lets go at some point when the pressure is at it's peak and slams into the bolt face causing ever increasing bolt set back.

HollowPoint, can you point a link to that post please? All the anecdatal evidence I can gather points to the humble Lee Enfield as the safer rifle to have a blow up with and it seems less fequent too for some reason. Lee Enfields can get into terrible condition. I've seen a bolt jamming fron excess headspace and locking lug hammering causing the locking lug recess to peen out (and jam the bolt).

[Multigunner]

I'm not seeing it (not saying it's not there, just that I can't see it from the photo's). What I do see is some serious bolt lug recess setback. That gun had a serious headspace issue. We do know that these Mausers have a problem with case head separation in that once separation occurs the gas pressure acts on a much larger area wich overloads the action to failure point. And that case head clearly separated from the case body (the case body is still in the chamber). It kinda puts paid to the theory that case grip on the chamber walls reduces bolt face thrust. It does but if the case head comes off then we have a problem. Usually what happens, I think, is the case lets go at some point when the pressure is at it's peak and slams into the bolt face causing ever increasing bolt set back.
And since milspec ammo has staked in primers theres no cushioning effect from the primer at all.




HollowPoint, can you point a link to that post please? All the anecdatal evidence I can gather points to the humble Lee Enfield as the safer rifle to have a blow up with and it seems less fequent too for some reason. Lee Enfields can get into terrible condition. I've seen a bolt jamming fron excess headspace and locking lug hammering causing the locking lug recess to peen out (and jam the bolt).

Unfortunately I've found that much anecdotal evidence is BS. Awhile back the photos of a SMLE rifle that had been stuck by a German AP that lodged in the bore was shown on another forum, with the claim that the resulting blow up had caused no harm to the rifleman holding it at the time. I later ran across an old article on this same rifle, stating the rifleman survived but spent several weeks in hospital due to cuts and burns to his face and hands.
Just looking at the photos of the blown up SMLE would indicate that the rifleman could not possibly have escaped injury. The barrel and receiver ring were blown out and stock shattered right where his left hand would have been, the bolt broken in half just ahead of the locking lugs, and IIRC the bolt head was also shattered. Of course any rifle would have blown up under such circumstances, it was the claim of no injury to the rifleman that I found dishonest.

I've also found incidents of many action failures in the records of the Canadian House of Commons and British Parlement, and a award of emergency funds to a sargent who suffered crippling injuries to his hand when the rear receiver wall broke away during a Kaboom. You often see it claimed that the rear walls and guide rib make it impossible for the bolt to be blown out, but rare as it is, it is not impossible.
Shattered and blow out boltheads apparently have injured or killed more innocent bystanders than shooters.

I like my Enfields but recognise that they are not beyond action failures or possibility of injury should one fail. Best to keep pressures as low as feasible for the performance envelope. The Chamber pressure of the MkVII ammunition was 45,400 CUP, thats as high as one should go with this cartridge, and only if the rifle has a good bore and the headspace is within safe limits for the brass being used.
If you can duplicate the MkVII performance at a lower pressure all well and good.

[303Guy]

Unfortunately I've found that much anecdotal evidence is BS.Too true! Possibly also, the countries where Lee Enfields abound don't report so much. I have heard of bolt heads unhooking and bending the bolt back like a cobra.

crippling injuries to his hand when the rear receiver wall broke away during a Kaboom. You often see it claimed that the rear walls and guide rib make it impossible for the bolt to be blown out, but rare as it is, it is not impossible.That's interesting. Never thought that possible. I've never thought of a Lee Enfield as beng brittle - not overly strong, but never brittle. Anyway, the 303 Brit is plenty powerful - no need to hot rod it. I'd just like more information on their failures.

[Multigunner]

Too true! Possibly also, the countries where Lee Enfields abound don't report so much. I have heard of bolt heads unhooking and bending the bolt back like a cobra.
Also when Reynolds wrote his Lee Enfield book he found that the MOD had destroyed huge quantities of records related to the Enfield, he had to piece together his information from scraps preserved here and there.




That's interesting. Never thought that possible. I've never thought of a Lee Enfield as beng brittle - not overly strong, but never brittle. Anyway, the 303 Brit is plenty powerful - no need to hot rod it. I'd just like more information on their failures.

The bolt head almost always fails first, this takes the pressure off the rest of the bolt so the main fragmentation is broken chunks of the lug that holds the extactor with its screw and V spring.

The worst scenario is if the chamber is cordworn, usually this results in the rear of the chamber being out of the round with the wear on the right hand side. This is caused by a soldier using the wire gauze on the pull through a not guiding it into the chamber but rather just janking it through. If the pull through was dirty and had sand sticking to it it could wear away a good deal of steel over the course of many cleanings.

The vast majority of blown bolt heads were due to defective ammunition. A book I found awhile back had quotes from a un named London gunmaker telling of Enfields (probably Long Lees) being the major part of his business with a great many being brought in with the action body cracked through. The same source told of a great many privately owned Enfield target rifles being destroyed when the government supplied a Bisley match with defective surplus ammunition. At about that time the British navy found that huge stocks of Naval gun propellent had become unstable, the cause given was contamination by mercury. This was a major scandal of that time.

The SMLE and No.4 are made from a very tough and springy Nickel Steel alloy. The body is probably tempered while the locking lugs of the bolt and the lug recesses of the action body are differentially hardened by heating with copper electrodes so as not to heat the surrounding steel.

The specifications for the Steel used for the SMLE has a good deal of leeway in the exact Nickel content. On the high end the SMLE steel is nearly the same as that used for the M1917 rifles, the low end has a good deal less nickel. So some SMLE rifles are far stronger than others.

From what little I could find on the 7.62 conversions the No.4 MkI had a greater percentage of failures in proof testing than the No.4 MkI*. The milled area for the early model bolt release was sometimes a failure point. I've heard of some FN Mauser bolts having had a problem with one leg of the split lug breaking off due to the milling there coming to a sharp corner rather than being radiused as it was supposed to be, perhaps a too square cut in the No.4 action body caused a similar fracture point.

I recently found a photo of a Enfield bolt with the left hand lug along with a large divot of the bolt body torn away. I can't see how they could have removed the bolt unless the rear wall was broken away or the walls spread.

If you ever find your SMLE charger guide bridge loosened, thats a sign of cracking around the rivet holes. A loose charger guide was usually grounds to condem the action body.
A sheared though lock pin on the rear sight pivot shaft of the No.4 is believed to be a sign of the rear walls spreading or springing apart under excessive pressure.

The main reason few Enfield failed in the field was because they had weekly inspections and a rifle could be condemed and broken up for parts if it showed any warning signs of impending failure. Third World users ran these rifles into the ground, many that have spent decades in those regions may have never been inspected since they left British custody.

Since armorers recycled boltheads you could have a rifle with very low round count but a bolt head that had seen tens of thousands of rounds fired while on serveral different rifles long ago worn out.
I've heard of a fresh from the mummy wrap No.4 suffering a shattered bolt head on its first shot, luckily it was being remote test fired so no one was in danger.

[PAT303]

A few years back I did alot of roo culling and one of my mates bought some South African 303 ammo that was loaded so high we could not get the bolt open without a hit from a stick.Like all things a good going over and steady loads are whats needed,most if not all Australian LE's did decades of service through the biggest wars in history before we got them so they need not be loaded to the hilt. Pat

[Four Fingers of Death]

There was some South African ammo around years ago, mostly in 3006. It had a big classic roundnose with a fair bit of lead exposed and came in a black and white box. It had a stamp across it that read Made in Austria, but it was cleverly placed so that the end of the stamp ended in the black and what you could read on the white past was 'Made in Austr' the rest was invisible. Most guy sthougth it said 'Made in Australia.' It was when the aparthiert (or haowever you spell it, I'm not racist, I can't even spell it) trade embargo was in place, so they were skirting around the bans. Every rifle I had and all that I saw locked up solid with it (including an M17 and several modern rifles). Bolts had to be opened with a lump of wood.

I finally got a 3006 that would shoot it, an Interarms MkX in a Ramline stock. It loved it. The brass was a right mongrel to reload, primers were soldered in I think,lol. Someone mentioned it at the range I mentioned that I had some of it. Another guy came out and said he had some and I bought it off him. He started out talking it up and someone dobbed him in about his rifle locking up, so I ended up getting it cheap. I still have a box downstairs.

It was called Musgrave, which is an African brand.

Lord knows how it went in Africa them being every bit as hot as Australia or even more so. Probably a faulty batch they dumped here.

[Andy_P]

It's a shame when, in response to photos of destruction, that some reloaders respond with such statements as: "I will not use smokeless in my Mauser M71/84"; or "I only use charges that can't be double-loaded".

Nothing wrong with that of course, and prudent if you're the careless type, but if the result is that others restrict their reloading in the same way, they are losing out on many positive experiences.

The Mauser M71/84 and many other "blackpowder era" firearms (e.g. Springfield Trapdoor) can and are regularly shot using smokeless, and I suspect that the large majority of them that are in use do. Fact is, most shooters don't reload, and most of them only load using smokeless (a suspicion only, based on sales of smokeless powder vs. blackpowder), and if it was "blackpowder only", these guns wouldn't be shot.

As for loading such that double charges are impossible, that too is a shame, and would make at least the 10 fastest powder (e.g. Bullseye) obsolete, as well as many fine, well-established loads. Trail Boss is supposed to be "fool-proof", and I suppose it is, but I've never found it to be anywhere near the "best" load for my applications so I use it sparingly.

Everyone needs to work within their comfort zone, but if zero risk is all you'll accept , then you need to give up not only reloading, but shooting as well, as even with factory ammo and/or new commercial firearms, things can happen.

[303Guy]

... some South African 303 ammo that was loaded so high ...Head stamp R2M2? It's MkVIII machinegun ammo! I put 500 rounds of it through my NoI MkI*. It did polish up the first half of the then new bore and the bolt lugs do bear very evenly but headspace is still on spec. I chronographed it and found it to be close to 308 levels. The stuff I had was cordite loaded. The army handed it out at sponsored target shoots. I finished of half a crate! I did have a gunsmith (ex WWII armourer) inspect the gun.

There was another lot of ammunition with cases made by PMP that could be suspect. The cases are very heavy walled with greatly reduced capacity and if normal load data is used with them pressures will be rather high but if they are loaded to specification velocity pressure would still be high.

[old turtle]

I agree with MtGun44 it appears that there was a crack on the right side of the action. Let's face it a double charge of almost any fast powder is not going to result in a happy situation. Best to check the powder levels in any loads which can be double charged. I scan the cases with a flash light to make sure the levels are the same. Not fool proof but a good indicator of a problem.

[azcruiser]

Not to cause trouble but that was caused by pressure plain and simple . what caused the pressure well that could be anything bullet not leaving or several not leaving the the barrel-something foreign in the barrel -double charge-cleaning rod not removed -wrong powder the list go on. Metal fatigue won't bend the mag -well scar the bolt face and flux/ weld the brass case to the chamber .Operator error of some kind .The views are just my own .Good example saw a guard put his cigarette butt in the barrel of his rifle while on guard duty smoking was not permitted there. All ways take your time use caution if for any reason something seem wrong stop and check
barrel -pull some cartridges apart -weigh everything look at everything .I can't be the only one who's proured the powder from my measure back into the wrong can . Stuff happens

[JIMinPHX]

a 98 Mauser is no stronger than a 96 Mauser.

How do you figure that? Large ring, small ring, one mounting surface, two mounting surfaces, different lugs...

[Four Fingers of Death]

I would have thought that the 98 was infinetly stronger than the 96. A 98 overloaded makes a lot of noise, gives off smoke and maybe sprays a bit of oil in your face. A lump of wood to open the action, trash the ammo and you are generally good to go. Seen it many times. Making safe ammo is a better option than relying on the action to pick up the tab, but why not go with the strongest one to start with?

[Multigunner]

Head stamp R2M2? It's MkVIII machinegun ammo! I put 500 rounds of it through my NoI MkI*. It did polish up the first half of the then new bore and the bolt lugs do bear very evenly but headspace is still on spec. I chronographed it and found it to be close to 308 levels. The stuff I had was cordite loaded. The army handed it out at sponsored target shoots. I finished of half a crate! I did have a gunsmith (ex WWII armourer) inspect the gun.

There was another lot of ammunition with cases made by PMP that could be suspect. The cases are very heavy walled with greatly reduced capacity and if normal load data is used with them pressures will be rather high but if they are loaded to specification velocity pressure would still be high.

Ordinarily MkVIIIz is not loaded with Cordite, the boat tail bullets won't seal well enough to be used with Cordite.
MkVIIIz and MKVIIz are loaded with single base smokeless powders, though non UK equivalents are often loaded with Olin Ball or eqivalent European Double Based extruded or Ball type powders.

Despite the Ammunition Pocket Books and manuals the British had far looser acceptance standards for MG ammo, being mostly concerned with rim thickness rather than chamber pressures. There was so much bad MG ammo of all types that the WW1 RFC and later RAF began contracting to have their MG ammo made by a few companies that had a proven track record for reliable ammunition. This ammo was much sought after by Snipers who would buy borrow or steal any RAF ammo that was not nailed down.

The Ground gun ammo might or might not meet specs so well, and years of storage in tropical conditions can degrade ammo, greatly increasing chamber pressures.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The RAAF was no different, they also always got the best stuff! Us Army guys were well down the food chain!

[303Guy]

That South African military R2M2 was probably good machinegun stuff. I pulled one or two bullets off and they were 175gr flat based (if I remember correctly) and sealed with bitumen and had a cardboard wad under them. They had an aluminuim core in the tip. The ones I had were not very old. The cordite was different to the cordite from MkVII ammo I pulled down. This stuff was ribbed lengthways and was hollow. I doubt it would have been hot enough to break a gun in good condition and I would think the Lithgow made guns would be good. I have one with a 25/303 barrel.

[PAT303]

Can't remember the headstamp but the bullets where double crimped with the biggest deepest crimp I have ever seen on any ammunition. Pat

[Four Fingers of Death]

I must dig out that box of ammo and have a look tomorrow.

[Hamish]

My apologies to the members of Cast Boolits. When I could'nt find a link to contact a moderator I decided to say exactly what I thought, and I should have done so. Moderator, please pm me as to how to contact in the future and please delte my preceding post.

[Multigunner]

That South African military R2M2 was probably good machinegun stuff. I pulled one or two bullets off and they were 175gr flat based (if I remember correctly) and sealed with bitumen and had a cardboard wad under them. They had an aluminuim core in the tip. The ones I had were not very old. The cordite was different to the cordite from MkVII ammo I pulled down. This stuff was ribbed lengthways and was hollow. I doubt it would have been hot enough to break a gun in good condition and I would think the Lithgow made guns would be good. I have one with a 25/303 barrel.


Hollow strands are Cordite MDT, that stuff was probably improved over most WW2 and earlier Cordite.
All the MDT (T for tublar)strands are supposed to be hollow but none of those I salvaged from POF duds showed any hollow center.
There were several modifications to the formulas and solvents used to make Cordite during wartime, between wars much of that stuff was found to have a relatively short shelf life and the ammo was either sold off or destroyed.
The RAF prefered Cordite to single base for aerial gun use, the tracer compounds in use didn't ignite reliably without the high temperature of cordite behind the bullet.