Making a rifle

[Sasquatch]

Since I was really bored today I was wondering if it is possible to neck up a 30-06 to a .45 or .50 caliber bullet. I am thinking of how the .358 whelen is a real thumper and is dandy for brush hunting, but I also want to be able to really drop moose or deer where they stand. Though, atmitedly I think there may not be any neck left to headspace on (if that is the correct term) so this may be a bad idea without using a rimmed cartridge. Perhaps necking up a 7.62x54r would be better? I just need a wildcat summer project (getting out of school will be dandy too) and I am turning 18 this summer so I can get 'my' rifle and shotgun transfered over to me.

I was thinking of getting an old rifle with a beat up barrel and stock use the action off of and making a new stock (or puchasing one). Or perhaps purchasin a new howa 1500 action and installing ironsights on that and getting my hands on a stock for it. I like the idea of 6.5x55 swede and .223 for ease of reloading and low cost (or for .223 cheap ammo).

EDIT: can a mod fix the title for me? My hand slipped and hit the 'enter' before I finished typing 'Making' a rifle

[stubshaft]

.375 Whelan is the biggest I've seen an '06 opened up to. If you want a thumper round then just build a 50 Alaskan it IS a wildcat.

[Doc Highwall]

I believe the largest you can go is .400-.416". I know of a 400 Whelen but the 35 Whelen is more popular and you can get ammo and cases. Wildcat cartridges that were good became factory cartridges and almost every niche has been filled by a factory cartridge. Get your self a copy of Cartridges Of The World and you will see what I mean. It is nice to have something unusual and different but I would suggest getting something more common and cheep to shoot like a 22Lr which is actually harder to shoot then a high power cartridge because of the long barrel time.

[JesterGrin_1]

For a Non Magnum round it would be hard to beat the Ole 35 Whelen.

[PrimitiveBeasty]

I was just thinking of this the other day! :grin:

My Cartridges of the world is showing a diameter of .441" right at the shoulder, and you do need to headspace with it, so I think .40 or thereabouts is about as high as you can go (I don't know how much shoulder you need to headspace properly).

The objective when I was thinking about it was a wildcat of large diameter using easily acquired brass. When I thought of needing to headspace when really go large, I thought of the 300 win mag, which I understand is pretty common (and is of course belted, besides having a wider body). I didn't even think of the 7.62x54R, I guess because my roommate had looked at loading for it a little bit ago and we found the brass uncommon/expensive.

The 30-06 is .470" at the base, so if you reduced the taper a bit you might be able to get closer to something like .45, but I understand if you reduce taper a lot like that you can have trouble removing the fired case from the chamber. And I understand the brass closer to the base of the cartridge is harder, and is thicker, so I don't know how well cases would take to straightening out like that.

I just thought to see how much the 30-06 Ackley Improved reduces the taper to see how much is realistic, but then got distracted by ridiculousness (http://outdoor-chat.959241.n3.nabble.com/file/n1739932/Real17power.jpg) :shock:. People were calling it the .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer made by PO Ackley. It doesn't sound right, as that is based on the .50 BMG case, and the one made by Ackley is supposedly based on some belted case.

But anyway, doesn't look like .50 would be attainable in 30-06, or any .30 caliber cartridge. I asked myself what would be the point in such a project with other cartridges like 45-70 (which I already reload for) around, and the answer I gave myself was mostly because it sounds fun! In any case, it sounds kinda like you were just thinking about it, like I was. No harm in just thinking, right? [smilie=1:

[clodhopper]

Thinking along the same lines how about a winchester super short mag necked up to .50?
The .223s I have seen were a real dissapointment to their owners, the biggest diffrence betweent the .243 winchester and the .243 WSSM is cost and avalibility of ammo.
The used rifles chambered for this cartridge may be quite inexpensive.
A nice little rimless case that length would be a great cast bullet/ smokless powder cartridge.

[jmorris]

The 458 socom uses a rebated rim (same size as a 30-06) and a .458 bullet. So it can work in AR's and bolt guns machined for that size case heads. In the end it turns out to be a 45/70 that uses magnum pistol powders.

[John Taylor]

I remember reading someplace that Whelen tried the 40 cal. on a 30-06 case and there was not enough shoulder to head space.
The 50 Alaskan uses the same rim as the 50-110, made up for the mod' 71 Winchester so it would feed easier than the longer 50-110.
A 458 American, 458X2 would be an interesting round. Uses a magnum bolt face and a shortened 458 brass.

[seppos]

Whelen had issues with the neck and headspacing. In original the shoulder diameter was .458 and later on some made a mistake and reduced it to .400
One option is .411 Hawk..
http://http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

S

[scrapcan]

All the above is great info and dead on right.

But if you are intent on something bigger, try the 458 american on the belted mag case. I think that would be fun to own, it sure is fun to shoot with cast boolits or atleast a friends is fun to shoot.

[Sasquatch]

I believe the largest you can go is .400-.416". I know of a 400 Whelen but the 35 Whelen is more popular and you can get ammo and cases. Wildcat cartridges that were good became factory cartridges and almost every niche has been filled by a factory cartridge. Get your self a copy of Cartridges Of The World and you will see what I mean. It is nice to have something unusual and different but I would suggest getting something more common and cheep to shoot like a 22Lr which is actually harder to shoot then a high power cartridge because of the long barrel time.

that souds about right. I was looking at it and the reloading dies and cost of custom/hard to find barrels is rather annoying. :( But, I may stick with the 30-06 and track down a 45-90 (maybe just a 45-70) for them mooseys':bigsmyl2: I do shoot .22s sometimes, but I honestly can keep 15 rounds in about 1in at 25 yards. I know thats no ninja sniper skillz but it is half bad considering I did it without my glasses. LOL It was a match .22 shooting match ammo with really nice peep sights, so that did help me a lot. I learned real fast that you had to wait till you saw a new hole to move the rifle just to make sure the bullet is out of the barrel. It is fun as heck to blow through 500 rounds for like $30.

I can shoot my 30-06 with about 2 or 3in groups at 100 yards off my backpack as a rest (is that good? All the other guys I saw at the range that day had all their rounds touching in what looked like 1in groups and my dad shot a couple 1in and 3/4in groups with the same rifle and ammo). I do feel over gunned with a 30-06 though. It just seems like over kill for deer and more then enough for moose. The 6.5x55 swede just seems like a far better round to shoot for plinking or deer, but too small for moose. Plus it won't cost as much to reload due to powder costs and bullets/brass aren't too hard to get (right?). The bigger bullet just seems right for taking shots at under 200 yards like it is here in the north east. More oopmh at short ranges seems logical somehow.

Wildcat cartridges don't appeal to me for the practical factor but for the fun factor of making all the bits and bobs needed. But for practicalities sake I think that a 30-06 and a shotgun fill my needs better then a .358 whelen, shotgun and a .22. less stuff is less expensive. Though shooting a .22 would give me more trigger time and save me some money.

[Doc Highwall]

Here is a 20 shot group at 100 yards that I shot prone with a sling and iron sights. This is why I love 22Lr I can learn follow through and wind reading that are valuable skills for high power shooting.

[Sasquatch]

Here is a 20 shot group at 100 yards that I shot prone with a sling and iron sights. This is why I love 22Lr I can learn follow through and wind reading that are valuable skills for high power shooting.

May I ask what is the standard for shooting (i.e. prone, sitting, standing, off a bench etc)? I normally shoot sitting on the ground or on my crazy creek chair (its this folding camp chair. Its hard to describe well, but you can always google it) and I don't have slings (yet). That looks to be a 3 1/2 or 4 in group, no? Off hand I can hit an apple with a shotgun slug at 50 yards with the open sights (I have a remmington 870 express deer. it has a 20in smoothbore barrel with rifle sights). Dunno what size group that is, but it is fun as heck to watch an apple explode. :bigsmyl2: I would probably shoot better if I fixed the trigger on my rifle. But it seems to work for dear old dad so Im probably just a bad shot. :oops:

[Doc Highwall]

Sasquatch, the target is the 100 yard smallbore target with a 1" X ring and a 2" ten ring.

[Fishman]

Excellent shooting Doc! And good advice too.

[Ernest]

400 Brown Whelen at .411 is about all you can go in a standard 30-0-6 case. I don't think ;you will need much more than that as it will duplicate the old 450/400 Nitro Express which was considered a fine and proper dangerous game cartridge to include elephant hunting.

[mroliver77]

I always kinda thought a 30-06 case with a .45 boolit would be like a long .45 auto and could headspace on the mouth. While not the best way of doing it the .30 carbine works this way among a few others.
Jay

[FrankG]

I had a 35 Whelen I built up about 10 years before Rem brought it out in the Classic. Shot really well with 250 spitzers or 285 cast boolits .

Had to have bigger just because , and built up a .375 - 06 Whelen Ackley Improved . It shoots really well with 270 gr Hornady's or the 275gr cast.
I still have the .375 , real easy to load for and runs the 270 jacketed 2550 fps which isnt too awfull far behind a 375HH with a bunch less powder.

I also made up a .45 - 2.1 on a Mauser action. I used 7 mag , 338mag cases cut off at the shoulder , trimmed to 2.90" and using several different dies to form the cases , flare and seat bullets . to chamber I used a 30-338 and 45-70 set of reamers . I know sounds hokie but worked and Marlin hadnt come out with the 450 marlin yet , that was 20 some years ago and I wanted a 45-70 case length in a bolt gun and it feeds the 530 grain Saeco Spitzer super and speaks with authority . I just used 45-70 loads and worked to where I was comfortable with accuracy . Likes everthing Ived fed it which has been all cast from 385 to the Saeco Spitzer.

[Wayne Smith]

[QUOTE=Sasquatch;1154539]
I do feel over gunned with a 30-06 though. It just seems like over kill for deer and more then enough for moose. The 6.5x55 swede just seems like a far better round to shoot for plinking or deer, but too small for moose. Plus it won't cost as much to reload due to powder costs and bullets/brass aren't too hard to get (right?). The bigger bullet just seems right for taking shots at under 200 yards like it is here in the north east. More oopmh at short ranges seems logical somehow. [QUOTE]

You are not undergunned with the 6.5x55. The Finns and the Swedes have done significant research and found that this cartridge kills just as quickly as the .300 Magnums. This is with moose sized kritters. Besides, if you are patient and follow, you can kill a moose with a .22! They are not really hard to kill.

[Sasquatch]

You are not undergunned with the 6.5x55. The Finns and the Swedes have done significant research and found that this cartridge kills just as quickly as the .300 Magnums. This is with moose sized kritters. Besides, if you are patient and follow, you can kill a moose with a .22! They are not really hard to kill.

Yeah that sounds right. Doesn't the 6.5x55 penetrate really, really well? Plus it shoots really flat, no? I am going to kee the 30-06, even if I don't shoot it much, just as it is a BEAUTIFUL rifle. And as its my first I have a certain attachment to it.

Has anyone used the howa 6.5x55 action? they were the only one I found easily on the net.

ps. thanks mods for fixing the title!

[seppos]

In Finland the misconseption about the 6.5mm swede as practical moose cartridge comes from bad english.. Somebody in the past mixed the words: moose and mouse..;)

Of course it is possible to kill the moose even with 6.5mm, but it does not leave any margin of error for shot placement..

S

[357Mag]

Sasquatch -

Please check you PMs.

Regards,
.357Mag

[Sasquatch]

Honestly, I may take the uber large caliber rifles off the drawing board. I just went through a case of 30-06 (200 rounds) in the last two days, and I just decided it was WAY too much gun for me. Even a .308 is too much. For 100 yard shots on deer a 30-30 will probably fit my needs better. Just plop some better iron sights on a marlin 336 and I will be way better off then my cannon. It speaks with too much authority for my taste. Plus that size rifle is heavy and bulky. If I could take off the plastic butt plate, put on a recoil pad, take an inch or two off the barrel, remove the scope and add some ghost ring sights it would be one heck of a deer slayer though. But still heavy, loud and intimidating. Plus I can't shoot it well beyond 150 yards. I printed about 2in at 100 yards and about 4in at 200 yards, but it was about 2in low at 200 yards (it is zeroed for 100 yard shots).

[PrimitiveBeasty]

Well, a uber large caliber rifle loaded with slower boolits isn't always that bad, and the end of their easily useful range is about what you're talking about.

But that's totally your decision, and it seems to me you're making a good one.

Check out Skinner sights for the Marlin, I've only ever heard good things about him/his product/his service, and after getting the sights for my 1895 I must agree.

[Sasquatch]

Well, a uber large caliber rifle loaded with slower boolits isn't always that bad, and the end of their easily useful range is about what you're talking about.

But that's totally your decision, and it seems to me you're making a good one.

Check out Skinner sights for the Marlin, I've only ever heard good things about him/his product/his service, and after getting the sights for my 1895 I must agree.

Define 'that bad'? If I can watch where snow has been disturbed from the bullet going down range (think a plume like a fast car on a dusty road) its too much gun for me. LOL The marlin is dandy looking, but I have to handle on in person before buying one.

I saw a good condition (think almost mint) SMLE no. 4 mk. 1 the other day for $300 the other day in a local gun shop that I may pick up. It seems to handle well and has good sights already. And the .303 brit it a little more tame then the 30-06. But, it is too much of a cannon for pretty much anything I need it for. Right now Im just going to keep my eye out for a sporterized SMLE with a good bore, good sights, and not too messed up (around where I am they run about $100). That would definatley be a good 100 yard deer gun. Though if they can be rigged up with the same type of sights as a mosin that would be amazing.

[Sasquatch]

has anyone had any experiance with this sight:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=594607?cm_cat=Cart&cm_pla=ProductDesc
or would this sight be a better choice:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=832662
I intend to use this as a front sight http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=191002?cm_cat=Cart&cm_pla=ProductDesc
and this as a sight base
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=191002?cm_cat=Cart&cm_pla=ProductDesc

it should work well on my vanguard along with a decent recoil pad. And it should cover my light weight woods gun/hunting rifle. Does anyonehave and advice for adding iron sights? Other then 'don't'.

[303Guy]

There's no such thing as too much gun! I developed a boolit for my 303 Brit pig gun that would fulfill a multi-role. It's a 214 grainer with a large but shallow hollow nose (or should it be called a 'cup-nose') which kills turkey right on the spot. No idea how it will perform on pigs but we are talking 214 grains on 303 cal at around 1500 - 1600 fps. Maybe a lot less. Just saying ... [smilie=1:

[jmorris]

There's no such thing as too much gun! I

I kind of agree, you can't kill them past dead. That being said no one ever wants to carry my 50 BMG around to hog hunt with. I guess they don't feel like they can shoot a 47# rifle that well off hand. I'll stick with my model seven in 7-08 for that job myself.

[NHlever]

All the above is great info and dead on right.

But if you are intent on something bigger, try the 458 american on the belted mag case. I think that would be fun to own, it sure is fun to shoot with cast boolits or atleast a friends is fun to shoot.

I think that is pretty much a .450 Marlin with a standard belt instead of the wider one Hornady used on the .450.

[NHlever]

Since I was really bored today I was wondering if it is possible to neck up a 30-06 to a .45 or .50 caliber bullet. I am thinking of how the .358 whelen is a real thumper and is dandy for brush hunting, but I also want to be able to really drop moose or deer where they stand. Though, atmitedly I think there may not be any neck left to headspace on (if that is the correct term) so this may be a bad idea without using a rimmed cartridge. Perhaps necking up a 7.62x54r would be better? I just need a wildcat summer project (getting out of school will be dandy too) and I am turning 18 this summer so I can get 'my' rifle and shotgun transfered over to me.

I was thinking of getting an old rifle with a beat up barrel and stock use the action off of and making a new stock (or puchasing one). Or perhaps purchasin a new howa 1500 action and installing ironsights on that and getting my hands on a stock for it. I like the idea of 6.5x55 swede and .223 for ease of reloading and low cost (or for .223 cheap ammo).

EDIT: can a mod fix the title for me? My hand slipped and hit the 'enter' before I finished typing 'Making' a rifle

Actually, the .444 Marlin is close to what you are thinking about, but it is a trifle shorter than the 30-06. The .375 JDJ is an example of what you can do in that direction.

[Reverend Recoil]

The 9.3x62 appears to meet all the requirements.

"May I ask what is the standard for shooting (i.e. prone, sitting, standing, off a bench etc)? "

For average aggregate of prone, sitting, and standing.
High Master 97-100
Master 94-96
Expert 89-93
Sharpshooter 84-88
Marksman 0-83

Pulling a trigger while seated at a table does not count.

[Sasquatch]

I beg to differ on the too much gun topic, but something called a 'recoil pad' may help me. A hard rubber plastic butt isn't very pleasent to use. LOL I am looking for a good 150 yard deer gun/ somethign to carry in the woods in case of angry animals/ boolit slinger. I like to shoot sitting or supported (Like leaning on a tree) off hand, so light is helpful. And if I shoot off a bench I use a backpack as a rest. And Im seriously looking at a .338-06 or a necked up .308 win, which seems somewhat more tame.

I handled a swedish mauser the other day in 6.5 sw and I don't see what the rage about them is. The cartridge may be great, but the sights on those rifles are god awful and the bolt is awkward to work. But that is just me. I was looking at one of those, but now a more american rifle seems more up my alley.

[Johnw...ski]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/JohnWski/466Whelen002jpg.jpg

Still can't find a reamer for this project but here are some .466 Whelen cartridges.

John

[Sasquatch]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/JohnWski/466Whelen002jpg.jpg

Still can't find a reamer for this project but here are some .466 Whelen cartridges.

John

what does that cartridge headspace on? :shock: It doesn't seem to have a belt, shoulder, or rim.

[Johnw...ski]

Well Akley found great benefit with a really sharp angle on the shoulder this takes it a step further with a reverse shoulder, headspacing is going to take an engineer to figure out.

John

[hickstick_10]

Honestly, I may take the uber large caliber rifles off the drawing board. I just went through a case of 30-06 (200 rounds) in the last two days, and I just decided it was WAY too much gun for me. Even a .308 is too much. For 100 yard shots on deer a 30-30 will probably fit my needs better. Just plop some better iron sights on a marlin 336 and I will be way better off then my cannon. It speaks with too much authority for my taste. Plus that size rifle is heavy and bulky. If I could take off the plastic butt plate, put on a recoil pad, take an inch or two off the barrel, remove the scope and add some ghost ring sights it would be one heck of a deer slayer though. But still heavy, loud and intimidating. Plus I can't shoot it well beyond 150 yards. I printed about 2in at 100 yards and about 4in at 200 yards, but it was about 2in low at 200 yards (it is zeroed for 100 yard shots).


And Im seriously looking at a .338-06 or a necked up .308 win, which seems somewhat more tame.

This thread has run all over the place from a custom howa with a big bore wildcat, to millsurps in a tamer caliber, to lever guns. Eather eat less sugar, or buy yourself a copy of "Cartridges of the world" and read about factory cartridges that are available. First its to much recoil for big bores, then its back to blown out wildcats.

And precious little about building rifles.

Even a 358 Winchester will thump you a bit, its a factory cartridge based on the .308.

A 308 is all you will need for most cases.

[Sasquatch]

This thread has run all over the place from a custom howa with a big bore wildcat, to millsurps in a tamer caliber, to lever guns. Eather eat less sugar, or buy yourself a copy of "Cartridges of the world" and read about factory cartridges that are available. First its to much recoil for big bores, then its back to blown out wildcats.

And precious little about building rifles.

Even a 358 Winchester will thump you a bit, its a factory cartridge based on the .308.

A 308 is all you will need for most cases.

Frankly, I have gun ADD and just ADD in general. I can't make up my mind hence bouncing ideas off of people. It comes from being a teenager. But at least I haven't blown myself up. :bigsmyl2:

I think I have decided on a stainless howa action in .308 win or 30-06 (most probably 30-06). definatley iron sights and a laminated wood stock. now I just have to learn how to put on iron sights. frankly the tamer cartridges was me being a ******* and it not occuring to me to think about using a recoil pad. :oops: To me bigger bullets seems more logical, but with a smaller case capacity as it will make the barrels last longer.

Milsurps made sense due to cost, but I read a bit on headspacing and bore size on the .303's and it scared me away. Plus I have a father who would have a cow if I openly considered anything other then a modern rifle. And I have a mom who is afraid of anything bigger then a .22 who I end up shootin with fairly often. Though he would make an exception for a Garand.

Right now all I KNOW for sure is I wan't
Iron sights
stainless action and barrel
light weight
not something that will knock me flat on my rear when i shoot it
a recoil pad
less flip flopping
long barrel life (at least 4000 rounds with j-word bullets, which is why big bore made sense. If slinging a small bullet made it last less long I assume slinging a bigger bullet makes it last longer)
nothing tactical
something that can survive getting wet (so definatley a GOOD syntetic stock or a laminated stock)
commonly available reloading components (i.e. brass, bullets, and if possible dies)

so basically one of those 'scout rifles' without the silly 16.5in barrel and forward scopes. The howa made sense as I am already familar with the action and lots of remmington 700 accesories fit it as well. The .358 win makes sense, if dies are easy to find. Frankly, I think I got too caught up in a 'perfect' rifle as opposed to a good enough one. if I just put a good sights on my vanguard Ill be set. and when the barrel is shot out look at wildcats.

so how does one attach a front sight dead center on a barrel? I can solder pretty well and I can pick up welding pretty easy.

[RonE]

If you are really looking for a wildcat project why not get a 12 ga double barrell shotgun that is in good shape and cut the barrels back to 24". Next, get a couple of .375 cal barrels and insert them into the shotgun barrels. leave some space between the original shotgun barrels and the inserts so that you can use excentrics at the muzzle to calibrate the barrels. I would neck up the 7.62X54R to .375 and end up with a .375 double rifle. If you want to have fun and something unique you might as well go all the way.

[thehouseproduct]

44-06
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=90803&page=15

Last couple pages.

[Sasquatch]

If you are really looking for a wildcat project why not get a 12 ga double barrell shotgun that is in good shape and cut the barrels back to 24". Next, get a couple of .375 cal barrels and insert them into the shotgun barrels. leave some space between the original shotgun barrels and the inserts so that you can use excentrics at the muzzle to calibrate the barrels. I would neck up the 7.62X54R to .375 and end up with a .375 double rifle. If you want to have fun and something unique you might as well go all the way.

:holysheep That would be a challenge of a project. But if I found a good double barrel shotgun Id probably leave it as is. I have a secret fondness for a good coach gun. Especialy a ten gauge. :-P

Ive been looking around and have had some trouble finding any howa 1500 barrels which is startign to bother me. But, it won't be long till I have the money for a remmington 700 which may be a better project gun.

[nanuk]

I"ve always wanted a 11.2x60Mauser, (I think that is it) necked to .375. keep the neck full length. and short throat it. with that long neck I think it would be good for GG and PP

I think it would be great for CB, if rifled 1x16 or so.

leave the belt on the Belted Mag case and alter the gun to accept the belted mag vs the rebated rim and standard rim size.

That would be different!

[StrawHat]

... remmington 700 which may be a better project gun...

Even better would be a Savage, the barrels can be made to interchange reasonably easy and the barrel availability is pretty good.

[Sasquatch]

Even better would be a Savage, the barrels can be made to interchange reasonably easy and the barrel availability is pretty good.

Thats true. And even cheaper then a 700.