Concentricity - Lyman vs. Lee sizers

[selmerfan]

Okay, so I'm mildly OCD with my reloading stuff. (raise your hand if you can relate) I'm finally settling into a bullet that my .30-06 likes, and that's the Lyman 311299 with .301-.302" nose and .310-.3105 driving bands. I have a Lyman 4500 lubesizer with a .310" die that I've been using for my .30 cal boolits. I've heard that the base-down way of sizing can adversely affect the concentricity of the finished product and that nose-first sizers are superior in this department. However, I can't afford nor justify the expense of a Star sizer, so I'm left with the Lee sizer as an alternative, which is fine, I use a .359" Lee to size some of my .359" boolits w/TL design from Ranch Dog. How many of you have experienced bad results from sizing with the Lyman 4500 in terms of concentricity or the boolit entering the die less that dead straight? I'm contemplating buying a Lee .310" sizing kit and a Lyman .311" die so that I can size in the Lee and lube in the Lyman. I know it's an extra step, but if it eliminates a variable in the accuracy department I'm all for it. What say you more experienced casters? I have a couple decades of handloading under my belt, but the casting thing is only a couple of years old and I didn't do much last year as I was finishing my seminary studies. Now I'm in first call and I have a paycheck, wife is working full-time, kids are in school, and I have more free time than I have in about a decade. I want to get this right, because I also have more time to dedicate to filling the freezer, which is why I hunt, but I normally have to do it quickly in one weekend for each season. I have a little more time to pick shots and distance and would like to take a couple of deer with cast boolits in my .30-06 next fall with an HP'd 311299 boolit. I've taken lots of deer with cast boolits out of my pistols in Iowa, but the rifle thing holds some appeal for me. So, long story, short question, what would you do?

[1hole]

The point (pun there) of nose first and not pulling the bullet out each time is speed, not concentricity, and base first pushing eliminates the need for a closely matched nose punch. The bullet couldn't care less which end goes in the sizer first.

[selmerfan]

1hole, thanks for putting my suspicions on this into words. I couldn't figure out why, if a Lyman 4500 or any other lubriziser of that type, was put together properly with a good nose punch, it would adversely affect the concentricity. I'm not doing thousands of boolits, so speed is not that important to me, this is stuff I do while listening to the radio and separating from the world for a while, not for speed. I guess that settles it, I'll just get a .311" sizer die to accomodate a .30-30 I cast for, then I'm set for my .30 cals

[dragonrider]

I worked with a Lyman 450 for a lot of years before I got my Star up and running. It does indeed make a difference as to how a boolit enters a die. The nose punch on the Lyman holds that boolit in relation to the rams axis. If the die axis and ram axis are not aligned perfectly the result is a boolit that is not concentric, I had many boolits in my Lyman that were either not concentric, bent or the nose has been expanded by the force applied to the nose punch. This problem does not exist in the Star or the Lee sizers because the boolit is not held firmly in a nose punch but rather pushed nose first by a flat punch against a flat base thus allowing the boolit to align itself in the die. If it comes out of a Star or a Lee for that matter, non concentric, then it came out of your mold that way.

[stubshaft]

I have more time than money, and go with the double sizing method for long rifle boolits. Seat GC and initial size through a push thru and lube with the Lyman.

I will readily admit that I haven't experienced any problems myself in this area but my Lyman is getting pretty worn and although I can bush the ram. I'd just as soon go with the method I use now for piece of mind.

[ktw]

I have more time than money, and go with the double sizing method for long rifle boolits. Seat GC and initial size through a push thru and lube with the Lyman.

I also fall into the "size in a Lee, lube in a Lyman/RCBS" camp for rifle bullets. My experience is that they align better when sizing in the push through dies.

It's not like the Lee dies are any great expense, and, if you are going to oven heat treat, which I have been with many of my rifle bullets, you have to size/check and lube in separate steps anyway.

-kw

[Bullshop]

You do know that the Lyman or RCBS can be set up as a nose first push through sizer right?
Takes maybe 5 minutes to switch the press back and fourth for either method of sizing.
It absolutely does make a difference in concentricity even using the same tools.

[1hole]

"If the die axis and ram axis are not aligned perfectly the result is a boolit that is not concentric, I had many boolits in my Lyman that were either not concentric, bent or the nose has been expanded by the force applied to the nose punch."

Yes, IF the punch isn't properly aligned. But, my #450 is fine and my old #45 was too.

Even so, the difference isn't due to "nose first vs. butt first".

IF the alloy is soft and you're sizing them WAY DOWN, I can see a mis-fitted nose punch flattening a meplat a little but that need not happen, IMHO.

[462]

"You do know that the Lyman or RCBS can be set up as a nose first push through sizer right?"

No, sir, I don't, but am willing to learn.

[selmerfan]

Okay, first of all, Bullshop is correct. (There's a shocker! :)) I thought about setting the Lyman up as a nose first sizer a couple years ago, tried it, then thought I was a little insane and went back to the normal way. I did it again this evening, and the sizing is far more even that base first. I was running some RD 311-165-RF TL boolits and base first I end up shaving the lead almost no matter what and the sizing marks appeared uneven on the boolit. Nose first made the sizing marks perfectly even and zero lead shaved. I'm sticking with this method, I don't do thousands at a time and I enjoy the process. So, here's how you do it.

First, take the sizing die out of the unit. Take a long punch and knock out the center pin from the die. With the die still out of the sizer, go over to the sizer. Back the depth adjustment all the way out, as in totally unthread it from the casting in the bottom and set it on your bench. Now you can take the long piece that pushes the bullet back up out of the die when it's set up normally out through the hole that the die would normally be in. Now put the die back in, don't worry about screwing it down with the nut, there is no need to do that right now. Put in either a flat punch or a nose punch that matches the diameter of the bullet quite closely. Lightly lube the bullets, I used a dab of Imperial sizing wax and rolled them around, but LLA or Dawn dish soap would work also. Put on the gas check, place nose first into die, and press down, repeat, boolits will start falling out of the bottom. When you're finished, find something to push the last boolit out, or take the die out and use the center rod that would normally be there. Now go back and lube or just TL the boolits in 45-45-10 or LLA. Enjoy! Bullshop said he uses a special long punch in the nose punch position for his setup. I used a 220 gr. .308" jacketed Sierra RN bullet to knock the last boolit out, then the .308" bullet just drops through.

[Moonie]

selmerfan, but one cannot lube working the press this way?

[selmerfan]

No, at least not without getting lube all over the nose.

[Bullshop]

On the last boolit you can just press the ejector pin back into the die. That will push out the last boolit and put the pin back where it belongs for lubing.
Les chance of it rolling off the bench and going way back under the really dusty corner of the bench where you cant reach. Don't ask!

[Char-Gar]

The value of nose first sizing has little or nothing to do with concentricity. Bullet noses of long slender rifle bullets can be bent or expanded by the pressure exerted in a tradition machine when use to size base first in the traditional method.

I use a press mounted sizing die (Lee, RCBS or Lyman) and a flat ram to push the bullets through nose first. I then lube the bullets in a Lyman 450 machine. This adds another stage to the operation, but I believe it to be worth the effort.

With pistol bullet, I just use the Lyman machine and go about my way.

[selmerfan]

The value of nose first sizing has little or nothing to do with concentricity. Bullet noses of long slender rifle bullets can be bent or expanded by the pressure exerted in a tradition machine when use to size base first in the traditional method.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a bent boolit a concentricity issue. :) And with the .30 caliber 165 gr. Ranch Dog FN, the "straightness" (concentricity by my working definition in reloading) of the boolit entering the die is obviously better going nose first. With base first sizing on this boolit, and others I've run through base first, I inevitably get a little bit of shaving on one side of the boolit. With the same boolit, from the same mold, in the same casting session, at the same diameter, I get ZERO shaving when I run them through nose first, and the sizing marks (shiny smooth lead) is very even around the circumference of the boolit. That's enough for me to know that it is a concentricity improvement. However, I do see your point with the long slender boolits, because when nose first sizing, between the mechanics/leverage of the sizer and the amount of boolit in the die when exerting pressure, the boolit is supported exponentially more than when exerting pressure with the large majority of the boolit OUTSIDE the die as occurs in base first sizing. In any case, you and I size and lube boolits in a similar manner, and I assume with excellent results! In the end, we get the same product, it's the journey getting there that's fun to discuss!

[MT Gianni]

Selmer, Consider concentricity as being equal distance from the center of the core. You can still have a bend in a boolit with it being concentric. The opposite, eccentric would be an oval or offset such as drastic finning.

[selmerfan]

Okay, I'll concede the concentricity based on strict definition "with center" (etymologically) or having a common center. However, my goal with concentric bullets as a component in concentric ammunition is that the bullet be concentric in relation to the bore, not in relation to itself. If a boolit is bent, it will not be concentric to the bore I'm sending it down. That's why I size nose first, because if I'm shaving a portion of the boolit, then it is no longer concentric in relation to the firearm bore because the nose portion will throw off the centrifugal balance once it starts spinning.

[Char-Gar]

A bullet that is concentric is round.
A bullet that is not concentric is oval/out of round.
A bent nose means a bent nose, and the body of the bullet may be concentric.

If you mean concentric, say "concentric". If you mean bent nose, say "bent nose". If you are talking about ammo that is not concentric, talk about which part is out of round. I for one, took you are your word, which was somewhat confusing.

I am sorry if I come across somewhat pedantic, but others read these threads for information and education and words do matter.

[giz189]

Look at Accurate Moulds web site at his nose punches. What he describes on using a flat punch sounds credible to me.

[Char-Gar]

If a fellow has a lathe, flat sizing punches are a snap to make, or just turn any old nose punch to give a flat surface. I also turn the seating punches in dies flat, if I am seating a flat nose bullet.

[HangFireW8]

Sometime in the early 1960's, Lyman changed from a shave-it-off die to a tapered entrance die. If anyone is still shaving boolits, they either have an old die, or have a very oversized boolit (candidate for two-step sizing). Base-first in a tapered entrance may also prevent shaving.

Assuming your lubrisizer press is concentric (don't assume), you have a modern tapered die, you are pushing the boolit past the taper, and if you free-float your nose punch (I do it by sticking it in place with some boolit lube), and start boolits carefully, you should be getting concentric boolits.

If not, check to see if you may have misaligned mold halves.

I have had good fortune with boolit concentricity in over 20 molds. If you really want something to OCD over...

My biggest issue is case neck and boolit alignment concentricity. These problems take two forms. One is the case neck is just plane crooked, usually by dragging it over a dry FL sizer ball. The second is forcing +.002" over nominal boolits into .003" under nominal (j-word sized) case necks. Sometimes the Lyman "M" die just doesn't cut it. Fortunately, for 308/30-06 I can use a 31 caliber size ball and/or expander. For 8mm I'm looking to have something custom made.

I check all of my loaded rounds with an RCBS Case Master. I cull all loads over .003" out of alignment, index them and fire them into a separate group, or sometimes just pull them, resize them, and try again.

-HF

[selmerfan]

Chargar, thanks for the clarification on this one. I believe that one of the best ways that we learn by posting and others learn by reading is when one person (me in this case) has a perceived working definition of a term or process, i.e., "concentricity", and someone adds or corrects the information. I only ever use concentricity in relation to ammunition when I realize it is actually a machinists term used in practical definition exactly as you define. I understand that a perfectly concentric piece of material, in this case a boolit, can have a bend in it. So, in understanding that I'm playing a little fast and loose using the term "concentricity", I don't have an engineering degree (bachelor of music education and master of divinity, so I'd probably correct folks improperly using musical jargon or theological language :) )nor am I machinist, so my use of concentricity is limited to my ammunition components (brass, necks, bullets, and loaded ammunition). So, that being said, let's go back to square one and correct my terminology, because as a preacher I am also a wordsmith and like to use language accurately.

When I size base first and a small portion of one side of the boolit is shaved off, what is the proper term for how that will affect performance of the fired ammunition? I envision it putting the nose of the boolit ever so slightly off-center and throwing the balance of the boolit off as it spins downrange, which can have nothing but detrimental effects on the precision of my ammunition. I first thought this was a concentricity issue, but by strict definition I am wrong. So what happens to the boolit in that case in proper machinist terms? Or is it just that boolits are no longer "straight" although that seems wrong as well, as they are straight, but may no longer be perfectly square, thus no longer perfectly balanced.

[35 Whelen]

I firmly believe that nose-first sizing makes a more accurate bullet. My method is a two step like many others. For .30 (.308, .309, .310) caliber bullets, I seat the gas check and lube the bullets in my lubrisizer using a .314" die because I don't even want the touching the sizer die. THEN I size nose first using the Lee die of my choice.
35W

[Char-Gar]

Selmer... I am not a machinist, so I don't get to deep into tec talk. By whatever term, a bullet with a bent nose will not prove to be accurate. That is why we prefer to put the sizing pressure on the base of the bullet and not the nose.

All cast bullets from a mold are out of round to one degree or another. The better the mold, the less out of round the bullets are. That is why you see more lead swaged on one part of the bullet than another. Making the bullets round is not a real need, so bullets are sized to fit the barrel specs (throat, lands and grooves). That is a real need.

The nanosecond the bullet is fired, it will take the shape of the barrel, whatever that is. I doubt if there has every been a barrel that is perfectly round. Some are more so than others, but perfection is not to be expected in anything made by man. Barrels that are held to high tolerances cost more than those what are not.

Considering the imperfection of the rifles, bullets, loads and shooters, it is an amazing feat that these gizmos can perform as well as they do.

[TCFAN]

I firmly believe that nose-first sizing makes a more accurate bullet. My method is a two step like many others. For .30 (.308, .309, .310) caliber bullets, I seat the gas check and lube the bullets in my lubrisizer using a .314" die because I don't even want the touching the sizer die. THEN I size nose first using the Lee die of my choice.
35W

I do the exact same thing for my 30 cal boolits. I also use a .228 for lubing 22 cal boolits and size in a Lee .225 die. For my 44 cal I have to size first in a Lee .432 and then lube in a .433 H&I die if using a Ranch Dog .432 265 mold which drops out at .435 cast out of WW.......Terry

[Dale53]

NOTE:
Many of the Lyman and RCBS sizers have the nose punch "pushed" off center by the lock screw (the hole in the ram is larger than the nose punch so you can get it in). When you screw the lock screw tight, as is normal, it can push the nose punch off center (in direct proportion to the size of the hole in the ram).

Just put a smear of grease on the base of the ram where the nose punch seats. DO NOT tighten the screw - leave it loose. The grease will hold the nose punch in place but allow it to self center greatly reducing the potential for bending a bullet or sizing it off center.

Keep in mind that the original Lyman sizing dies had a step inside that would actually SHEAR lead from one side. After E.H. Harrison "exposed" that in the American Rifleman Lyman cured that problem and the current dies (since the '70's) now have a straight taper to the insides and work well. I mention this as there are a LOT of those dies out there. I don't buy used dies for this reason. As far as I know, RCBS dies have always been made correctly.

I shot Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette for many years. The bullets are quite long and very soft (30/1 is common) and very easily damaged by a conventional sizer. The Lee push through after pan lubing was the answer for me. I could have done the same thing with the Star but chose the Lee for that purpose. Pan lubing with a proper black powder lube, then push through sizing.

That will work just as well when using smokeless powder and any lube that will allow you to pan lube.

These days, due to vision problems, I am shooting pistols instead of rifles. I now use the Lyman or RCBS sizer for my black powder revolver bullets (use a different lube) and use my Star for all of my smokeless pistol and revolver bullets.

FWIW
Dale53