How to sift? Mining a trap field.

[skytex]

Ok, I recently got permission to try my hand at gathering lead from a trap field. Now I'm curious how to go about this. How do I sort lead from dirt when they are both the same size? The field uses nothing but 7.5-9 lead. no steel allowed and nothing over 7.5. I plan to perhaps use a bit of this if it's any good, but my main use is to melt it down and recast into shot using my shotmaker. Does anyone have any ideas or nifty contraptions that would aid in this?

[stubshaft]

I tried it and for me it got tiresome. I used a 5 gal bucket and would put the dirt, shot and pieces of asphaltum (broken bits of clay targets) in it. Run a hose with water into the bottom of the bucket and while the water was running agitate the mix. The lighter particles would be washed off. The I would sift the remaing particles to remove the rocks and gravel. I would shoot this shot at skeet as the deformed pellets would open the pattern quickly.

I get enough dirt, weeds and garbage in my range lead to make me want to smelt the shot for boolits.

[clodhopper]

I have seen home made screeong machines. Perhaps they are beyond what you want right now. A contractor came to our range with them.
But they are a series of screens, the ore is shoveled on the top screen where coarse, about 1/4" screen keeps the big stuff out.
The fines are screened on a much smaller mesh screen where the dirt falls through, and the shot is collected in a container.
These machines are powered by small gas engines like from a lawn mower.
The shot reclamation contractor knew how far the shot would be from the trap houses and hired a road grader to windrow the top layer of dirt.
The grader went one way and back to make each windrow.
The machines were on wheels and employees of the contractor spent days shoveling shot rich dirt into the shaker screens.
Our club got a very sizeable check back in the days when lead was jut pennies a pound.

[bumpo628]

I once bought some dirty reclaimed shot. Way too dirty to use as-is.
I put it in a bucket with a hose and a lot of the dirt comes out with the overflow. Stir it around and more comes out. Then I made an inclined plane and dumped the shot at the top. The rocks didn't roll, but the shot goes downhill. It was a pita for 50 lbs of shot.

If I was going to try to tackle a shot field, I guess the only way to do it cheaply would be to build a frame with a series of screens. Maybe you could attach a motor with an offset weight to the frame to get it to vibrate. Remember that once you get the shot out it needs to be cleaned and graphited. Then you're back to my first paragraph.

[skytex]

That's why I was considering just melting it down and recasting it. That way if some rock or dirt get in it, it'll just come out when I melt it all down. My problem is trying to get the big stuff out. I'd only bother trying to reuse it if it was just really easy to get to or in such good condition that it'd be a shame to melt it.

as for cleaning and graphiting, i do that as it is with my shotmaker. I'm just not sure how to take the dirt from the field and turn it into dirty shot where I don't bring the whole place back with me.

[The Double D]

You guys need to watch that Alaska Gold Rush show and make one of them gold mining machines....they work for lead also..just don't have them gold rush guys build it for you, it will break.

[krag35]

If you have acess to water, a high banker would do a fine job of separating the lead shot from the overbuden.

[skytex]

I'll have water at home but I'm wanting something I can put in my garden cart so I don't take home more dirt than lead. Some sort of screen box is a good idea. Can anyone expand on the idea?

[badbob454]

a hi banker or rocker box should do the job .'' gold mining equipment'' i get a lot of shot when panning or dredging for gold or use a gold pan screen bigger than shot size and then pan by hand if the shot is concentrated enough should work well

[badbob454]

I'll have water at home but I'm wanting something I can put in my garden cart so I don't take home more dirt than lead. Some sort of screen box is a good idea. Can anyone expand on the idea?

look into gold classifier screens

[gray wolf]

My motorized sluice box with a little Honda pump does a nice job. But you have to be near a water source. At home I use a kiddie pool and recycle the water.
Yes we have Gold in Maine. Not much --but enough to have a nice time on the Swift river.

[jmsj]

skytex,
If the ground is mostly dirt, you can use a leaf blower to blow away most of the debris. As you blow away the debris try to blow the shot into a small area then scoop it up. this can be sifted,screened or washed at home. I tried this last year at a trap range that the backstop was a steep, rocky, wooded hillside. It is a lot of work, 6 hours of work yielded 30 or 40 pounds of shot.

[Trapaddict]

The first thing you want to do is look for the shot in the "sweet spot". If you are in an area where you are finding pieces of broken clay target, you aren't far enough out yet. This chart shows the approximate distances the pellets will fly. Most trap is shot with number 7 1/2 or number 8 shot so You want to get out about 80-130 yards on a normal trap field and you should be in fat city. Remember that trap targets are not shot at with the muzzle of the gun at 45 degrees, but a much shallower angle thus decreasing the distance the pellets actually go so they will not reach the 200 yard or so distance before falling back to earth. At this 80-130 yard distance, you will be past all of the wads and target pieces. As far as screening it goes, you want to develop a means to roll the shot inside of a fine mesh screen to allow most of the dirt to fall through but not the shot while passing a high volume of high pressure air over it. The air will blow off all of the lighter lose debris off of it. My guess is that after you attempt this once or twice, you will not do it again. Been there and done that!

Jeff

[LEADLUBBER]

to add to mining the sweet spot, consider asking the range if they would let you put down tarps or a fine screen to gather the shot falling in the sweet spot, then you wouldn't have to sort it out from the dirt, just the broken clays mostly....

if you could find some surplus tarps or military stuff, you might could collect several pounds of pretty clean shot in a few months that wouldn't be such a back breaking deal....


My father in law used to do this and he said he could collect 60-100 lbs every month with three or four well placed canvas tarps that were 40 x 40.....

[Trapaddict]

I like lead lubbers idea a whole lot better!!!

Jeff

[skytex]

I really like the tarp idea except that the cost of a canvas tarp that size will set you back a very hefty price. It'd take alot of lead to pay or it.

I went out today and got afew shovel fulls and put em in buckets. The ground is still wet but I could tell there was lead in it. It went about 2-3" deep before thinning. However I think in a 5 and a 3 gal bucket full of sod I may get 3-4lbs. The field is grown with costal which makes skimming off the top rather hard. Anyways, how can I separate this sod from the lead?

[bumpo628]

Just throwing ideas out here:
1. Fill a 5 gal bucket up half way. Tilt it at 45 deg. and put the hose in there. When it overflows, the water will carry most of the dirt and leave the lead.
2. Toss small shovel loads of the mix into the air with a large fan blowing. Maybe the dirt will blow off to the side and the lead will fall on to a tarp.

[JIMinPHX]

AZmike is the expert on separating shot from soil. He does it professionally. He sells the tools to do it professionally. He sells what he recovers. He's a stand up guy to deal with.

http://mcneeleyenterprises.com/page.php?2

[skytex]

Thanks Jim. I dont think my little project is up for a $13,000 investment plus the cost of a skidsteer or loader.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Cement Mixer and a hose.

Sam :D

[mold maker]

I haven't tried shot, but I get almost all of LOE pistol range lead dirt off with a HF cement mixer and water from a hose. I sometimes let it run with a dash of soap and then rinse till the suds and muddy water are cleared.
What's left is clean lead, that gets a couple days in the sun on the cement drive. Turning it with a rake lets me make sure there are no live rounds. The resulting smelt has very little dross and the jacket material is much more sell-able.
I'm sure with changes to contend with the shot size, the same process would work.

[skytex]

So far this has been a waste. I'm washing it in the sink in my workshop putting afew hand fulls in a plastic box tilted to run out one end with a screen where it pours out to catch the grass and keep it outta the drain. Also got another screen over the drain to be sure. Out of a 3 gallon bucket of dirt, I've gotten a double handful of shot. And wrinkled dried out hands. If I'm only gonna get that much I'm spending more on water than id pay for shot. It'd take alot of shot to pay for a big canvas tarp too.

[Larry Gibson]

Cement Mixer and a hose.

Sam :D

Bingo, that's the fastest and most efficient way.

Larry Gibson

[jppr26]

look into a recurculating high banker then build one you could probably do it for under 100 bucks for a small one, i had one that i built and used for this same reason it gave me a 5gal bucket half full of shot an mixed bullets in under 2 hrs. main thing you need is a hopper with a spray bar and grizzly, then you need a sluce box to go under it, mine was 12" wide 3" tall and 4' long. Turned up expanded metal works great but will load up fast, a deep hungarian riffle works best spaced about 3" apart. My water source was a large puddle with a 2.5hp engine with a 1.5" trash pump.

[skytex]

Ok those contraptions would work fine if I were just separating black dirt from shot. But I have clumps with lots of fine roots that grip the shot to the very end. Not to mention needing some way to break down the clumps of dirt. I had something similar to these set up in my sink where water ran into an angled box, alot of the grass floated up, and the water carried off all the dirt leaving me with sand, fine roots, and shot. Rinsed in a fine mesh kitchen strainer I use to separate shot from powder when I make an oopsie reloading and that removed the sand leaving shot and roots. I melted 2/3 of a 10lb pot full of this expecting the roots to just burn off. I had maybe a 1/4 pot of lead and the rest was what looked to be dirt, and oxidized shells from the shot. I'd like to be able to easily, and cheaply filter down to shot only to toss in the pot. Besides it took a good hour to melt the little bit I had. If I ever want this to be remotely profitable over buying lead or shot already made, I've got to simplify the procedure. Somehow to break down the dirt clods into soil, then a setup like these recirculating sluice boxes. And even then having more shot than not left at the end.

On building one of these, what materials would be needed and where would they be obtained? Would it be easier to just buy a small cement mixer at harbor freight and set it in a kiddie pool full of water then use a sump pump to recycle the water?

[skytex]

A resourceful guy over on shotgunworld just had an idea. I wanna run it by y'all too. See if any flaws can be found. I cant find any myself.

"I've never tried this, just a thought that came to mind reading your post...

Buy an old dryer on Craigslist. Plug the air holes in the barrel, because they're too large stop the shot. Cut out big holes in the "barrel" and replace with screen small enough to catch the shot size you're harvesting. Remove whatever guts inside the dryer are in your way, or in the way of dirt falling freely out the bottom. All you need is the drive mechanism to spin the barrel (unless you want heat to dry the mix). Mount it with space under the dryer so you can use a shovel to remove the filtered dirt.

Shovel dirt/shot mix into the dryer, and turn it on. Occasionally toss more mix into the dryer and clear the filtered dirt out from underneath."

Well?

[bumpo628]

A resourceful guy over on shotgunworld just had an idea. I wanna run it by y'all too. See if any flaws can be found. I cant find any myself.

"I've never tried this, just a thought that came to mind reading your post...

Buy an old dryer on Craigslist. Plug the air holes in the barrel, because they're too large stop the shot. Cut out big holes in the "barrel" and replace with screen small enough to catch the shot size you're harvesting. Remove whatever guts inside the dryer are in your way, or in the way of dirt falling freely out the bottom. All you need is the drive mechanism to spin the barrel (unless you want heat to dry the mix). Mount it with space under the dryer so you can use a shovel to remove the filtered dirt.

Shovel dirt/shot mix into the dryer, and turn it on. Occasionally toss more mix into the dryer and clear the filtered dirt out from underneath."

Well?

That might work, but the only flaw I can see is that the drum would start to get really heavy. The belt might start slipping and maybe the motor would be overworked.

Maybe you could rig up your own thing using the dryer as a concept. Make a wood drum and attach the screens as you described above. The difference would be that you could attach a large diameter pulley to the drum - maybe a bicycle wheel. The drum would turn slower, but the motor wouldn't work as hard. You could use any motor that is big enough and attach it using whatever belt(s) you can find.

If you put the door on the drum wall (not the front like a dryer), you only need to rotate it down with a wheelbarrow underneath to empty it.

[KYCaster]

That guy on Shotgunworld....is his name Red Green??? Did he suggest taping hockey sticks to the drier to raise it off the ground??? :kidding:




I've pondered the same problem myself and the cement mixer/water hose suggestion is probably the best deal for a small operation.

I agree with Bumpo...the drier would probably be easily over loaded and would be hard to empty.

Let us know if you come up with something that works reasonably well.

Good luck
Jerry

[jppr26]

KYCaster i have that same spaceman spiff for a tattoo

[skytex]

Thought I'd drop an update.

Still working on the dryer. I lined the drum with wire screen. The drum has several 4x6" holes in it. It worked great for a couple of hours then the wire started giving out.

Back to the drawing board. Now I'm using 1/4" hardware screen a bit bigger than my holes. Then wrapping it in the wire screen I used previously. This should limit the stress on the finer wire screen as the 1/4" is much stiffer and will not allow the fine stuff to stretch and tear. I'm bolting these screen panels over the holes. Hopefully I will finish doing this tonight and try again. Work has picked up thus my tinkering has slowed.

I still feel this will work. It is just taking some refinement.

[bumpo628]

Thought I'd drop an update.

Still working on the dryer. I lined the drum with wire screen. The drum has several 4x6" holes in it. It worked great for a couple of hours then the wire started giving out.

Back to the drawing board. Now I'm using 1/4" hardware screen a bit bigger than my holes. Then wrapping it in the wire screen I used previously. This should limit the stress on the finer wire screen as the 1/4" is much stiffer and will not allow the fine stuff to stretch and tear. I'm bolting these screen panels over the holes. Hopefully I will finish doing this tonight and try again. Work has picked up thus my tinkering has slowed.

I still feel this will work. It is just taking some refinement.

How about a couple of pics?

[skytex]

Hopefully I'll have some pics and even maybe a video up this weekend. I want to finish up covering the holes.

[skytex]

Ok, here are some pics. I ran it for awhile tonight. Only problem is breaking up the round balls some of the dirt formed last round. I don't know if this will happen with the next batch but I'd assume so. Any way to prevent it? I know it's from moisture in the dirt letting it roll up like that. the damned things are hard enough to use for slugs after they dry out like these. Anyways, suggestions are welcome.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/SkyTex/6906dae0.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/SkyTex/a51da2c1.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/SkyTex/6a212843.jpg

[bumpo628]

Looks good. So the machine works with the standard belt and motor?

[skytex]

Yep. I don't usually go much over the load in it there.

[a.squibload]

Dryer looks good.

Alternate method:
1) Plow sweet spot, deep furrows.
2) Call in air strike, napalm.
3) Allow to cool.
4) Go pick up ingots.

I read somewhere (maybe here) about a shop vac like contraption,
powered by a leaf blower, before the can or bucket it had a screened
dropout zone for the pellets. Dirt and grass would fly by the dropout
and pellets would fall through. Thinking it was a homemade device.

[skytex]

Well the motor on my dryer went out back in April. Unfortunately my fiancé also left me in April and I mothballed all my projects. I'm trying to bring this one back out. Anyone got any fresh ideas?

[uscra112]

Dryer looks good.

I read somewhere (maybe here) about a shop vac like contraption,
powered by a leaf blower, before the can or bucket it had a screened
dropout zone for the pellets. Dirt and grass would fly by the dropout
and pellets would fall through. Thinking it was a homemade device.

Exactly what I was thinking - winnowing with air. Another tool might be the inclined plane sorter they used to use in shot factories. Plane is arranged with a lip and a slot so that round shot rolling down the plane has enough velocity to jump the slot, but anything that is out of round or too light doesn't, and falls into the slot.

Maybe heat in the dryer would help break up those clods? But it might also be that they don't enclose enough shot to bother with . . . .

[skytex]

Yeah that's my current issue. I've got to process enough dirt to get the volume of shot I want. It's a real bugger. If I can just set something up automated enough to process a large amount of dirt, I can get rich in lead. I'm guessing it is averaging to 4-5lbs lead for 50lbs dirt. But it's also a near limitless supply. Means if I could set up to process 300lbs a day I could get 30lbs of lead. If I could do this consistently over say 10 days that's an easy 300lbs of great lead for making more shot with. It's just something I've got to set up to do. I've been putting some experts on it too that work with me running a rock crusher/washer/sorter for our company but they haven't figured out how to do it without super expensive equipment either.

[Rio Grande]

That guy on Shotgunworld....is his name Red Green??? Did he suggest taping hockey sticks to the drier to raise it off the ground??? :kidding:


Jerry

Ol' Red Green.
I got lots of good ideas for projects off that show.
Wish it was still on,
Beats most anything else on the TV these days.

[Janoosh]

Baffles in the "shot fall zone!" Most trap ranges are flat. The range I shoot at is semi forested in the "shot fall zone". The shot automatically collects at the foot of the trees. Shot does not accumulate to depth so the shot is easily picked up from the surface. But cleaning and sifting, we use multiple screens and sifters and still it's work. We found, dry dirt first, then sift. But then again, my friends and I are just reclaiming shot, recreationally.

[skytex]

yeah our fall zone is flat but no trees. its an open hay field. if not for the grass this would be easy.

[mrbillbus]

Wood shop dust collector with a pre-separator unit. The heavy stuff falls into the first chamber before it can get to the impeller. The lighter stuff keeps going through the system. That would at least get rid of the grass and such. I suspect that there would still be some dirt with the shot.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1022/21_P1010901.jpg

Then the water suggestions take over. Maybe?

[skytex]

Mr Bill... can you provide any more info on the setup you just showed me. It strikes me as very plausible in sorting a lot of the lighter detritus out.

[mrbillbus]

Mr Bill... can you provide any more info on the setup you just showed me. It strikes me as very plausible in sorting a lot of the lighter detritus out.

The basic idea is that the moving air will hold the lighter material up longer than the heavy. I don't know what kind of airflow would be needed but I suspect some trial and error could make it work. Here is a link to a site explaining the way it works for sawdust and wood chips.


http://www.woodworking-news.com/woodworking-projects/adding-dust-separator.shtml

I am imagining something like this in the back of a pickup truck with a suction hose to "sweep" the field. Might even be able to set it up so the dirt and debris just gets blown back out on the ground. the main thing is to have a stall point where the lead will no longer follow the air stream.

FWIW I'm not an engineer so I have no idea if this will work or even if I am explaining it in proper terms.

Bill

Ps. If it does work, you could make 10's, 20's of dollars! A nice card from your retirement villa would be nice. ;-)

[skytex]

Ok, I understand the concept now.... Now the question is what kind of vac could I get that would ride easily say in the back of my pickup, yet generate enough suction to run even a 5 gallon bucket w/lid? I agree 100% on perhaps being able to rig this up then just vaccume the ground to collect shot. So long as I got even an equal amount of shot vs dirt I could do quite well.

[a.squibload]

I'm no vaccuum expert BUT...

Assuming dust is light, dirt is kinda heavy.
In that design the shot would never get into the exit pipe, but the dirt probably won't either.
Tornado effect probably not necessary as shot is real heavy.

Maybe switch the two pipes, make the straight pipe the input, shorter and above the 90º pipe (now the exit).
Offset the exit pipe an inch or more to the side of the input pipe.
The shot would fall past the exit pipe, and hopefully lots of dirt would get sucked sideways into it.

Hey, might be worth a SHOT...:)

Also I guess it won't need a filter bag, just spray the dirt away from you.

[skytex]

Well, with it being a grass field, I am assuming there wouldn't be much dirt as my current thought it running a large shop-vac off of an inverter and just riding around the field in my pickup having my gf drive while I vacuum the ground. My last idea had me digging the top 2" or so of dirt up and trying to separate it.

[KohlerK91]

Wood shop dust collector with a pre-separator unit. The heavy stuff falls into the first chamber before it can get to the impeller. The lighter stuff keeps going through the system. That would at least get rid of the grass and such. I suspect that there would still be some dirt with the shot.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1022/21_P1010901.jpg

Then the water suggestions take over. Maybe?


The shop dust collector is the same concept as the "Kirby Vacume" they have had this for years.

On the kirby's there is a container for the heavy items(coins paper clips and stuff) to collect. Although it is these items have to go through the impeller so I gues it not exactly the same.