1909 Argentine Mountain Carbine

[bstarling]

I recently acquired a Mountain Carbine and am wanting to do some clean up refinishing on it. The gun is a DWM s/n "A007X".The bore is great and shiny and all the numbers are matching. There is some moderate rust on the ring, but no so bad. the stock is more or less solid but has a small crack (repairable) beneath the receiver. The stock is darkened and dented a bit. It almost looks as if it has been refinished at some point in the past. There are some across the grain sanding marks in the wood. The metal is coated with some sort of flaky black paint. The receiver is not polished, or at least not shiny. I have attached some photos. I think this gun needs a major refreshing. I'd like to get that paint off and thoroughly clean but not fully refinish the stock.

Also trying to make cases from 30/06 has proven to be very interesting. They don't want to fit the chamber. I've gotten a couple to work, but several that are just plain too large to chamber. I'm trimming the 06 and sizing the neck to 7.65 and then running them into a FL die. There seems to be a lot of spring back in the case. I'm thinking annealing the cases prior to forming may help. I also wondering if this caliber will be reasonable with boolits. The case neck on these things is mighty short.

Any and all comments are appreciated.

Thanks, Bill :D

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[Dutchman]

Annealing is certainly called for when forming 7.65x53 from .30-06. In some instances (or cases) neck turning is needed due to thick case wall in the neck disallowing safe bullet release clearance.

The neck is indeed short. I've done some cast bullet shooting with my 1909 rifle but haven't devoted time exclusively to it yet. I've shot 311299 but 314299 shot better. Mine is all matching # and with a sharp shiny bore. I use a Lee factory crimp die. The Lee 170 gr flat nose .313" did pretty good, too. It's supposed to be a .30-30 bullet.

I shoot Norma & Graf brass but I do have about 50 rds made from .30-06 Springfield.

As far as refinishing I don't think you're going to hurt your rifle with whatever you do. It's not a top end rifle to begin with so you won't hurt the value. Mine isn't either which is why I bought it.

http://images41.fotki.com/v195/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSCF1408yy-vi.jpg

My 2nd 1909 is my "shop rifle". It's a beater but complete.
http://images51.fotki.com/v1561/photos/4/28344/7865574/DSCF8900rd-vi.jpg

The one on the far right is the Lee 170 gr flat nose.
http://images43.fotki.com/v679/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSCF2077cb-vi.jpg

http://images19.fotki.com/v315/photos/2/28344/1676633/g_1968f_bmp6550594491093580377-vi.jpg

I shoot the 1891 Argentine as well. This one was made in 1892.
http://images38.fotki.com/v1221/photos/2/28344/157842/ArgentineMauser1891-vi.jpg

[nicholst55]

If I'm not mistaken Bill, I believe what you have is more accurately called an Engineer's carbine. I have an Argie-made Cavalry carbine, and although well-used, it's all matching and in decent shape metal-wise. The stock has seen better days, but it's serviceable.

I haven't shot it yet, and won't have the chance for a couple more years. I'd like to pick up an all-matching DWM-built rifle to go with it.

[bstarling]

Dutch, thanks for all the input. I've seen your site and for a fact, you are a Mauser man. I really like the LER mounts you've done. Have you ever done one for the Mountain Carbine? Oh, Nicholst55, according to some folks on another site this actually is a Mountain model. It has a 21.5 inch barrel and a 1400 meter sight. How long is the barrel on yours ? Whatever it is, I agree that it is more of a shooter than a collector and a major refurb won't hurt it a bit. Frankly, I think it got carried more than shot, but must have been cleaned really well after shooting.

Thanks for the replies.

Bill

[leadman]

The RCBS trim die makes it real easy to make this brass from the 30-06 parent cases. I have one and make several short runs into the die before I go full length. Then cut off the excess, full length size in a full length sizing die, trim to length, deburr. sometimes annealing is needed, never have had to ream a neck.
I had a set of Lee dies that sized the case a little long. they would work in one gun, not the other. Changed to RCBS dies, no problem.

[nicholst55]

Oh, Nicholst55, according to some folks on another site this actually is a Mountain model. It has a 21.5 inch barrel and a 1400 meter sight. How long is the barrel on yours ? Whatever it is, I agree that it is more of a shooter than a collector and a major refurb won't hurt it a bit. Frankly, I think it got carried more than shot, but must have been cleaned really well after shooting.

Thanks for the replies.

Bill

Bill, I'm 8,000 miles away from my guns and gear right now, and I honestly don't remember the barrel length. It's the model with the Mannlicher-style stock and metal nosecap.

Good advice on using the trim die to form brass, Dutch!

[bstarling]

Bill, I'm 8,000 miles away from my guns and gear right now, and I honestly don't remember the barrel length. It's the model with the Mannlicher-style stock and metal nosecap.

Good advice on using the trim die to form brass, Dutch!

I see your location now that I look. Korea is a bit around the Big Ball from Eastern North Carolina. I think that the one with the flush wood at the end is the cavalry model. They are really neat one. I guess you are in Korea for all of our benefit so I'll say thank for what you are doing!

Bill

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/CCF94B78EB03489/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/4DA7CC9A75D60EC/standard.jpg

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bstarling, yes your rifle with the 'H' pattern nose cap and 21.5" bbl is a Mountain Carbine. Above are some photo's of my M1909 Cavalry rifle (24" bbl). More a 'Short Rifle' then a carbine, compared to the 29" bbl'd infantry versions (as In Dutchman's photos).

Your issues in creating 7.65x53 brass from 30-'06 may very well be that the shoulder isn't being pushed back far enough. I had that problem years ago when I aquired a M91 and the only brass available was Norma and 2 boxes of that cost about what the rifle cost me. I had an old Pacific 7.65x53 FL size die I'd bought at a gunshow for a couple bucks. Not having a lathe at the time I took it to the local machine shop and had them take .015" off the bottom, and that cured the problem. I used an 8x57 seater die to seat boolits :-). Later on I bought a set of Lee dies and they had the exact same problem.

My M1909 Cavalry was made in Argentina. I bought it from Century (I had an 01 FFL) for $150. A few months later in a flier they were advertising Mountain Carbines for the same price, but the photo in the add showed the Cavalry version. I called them and the snippy sales being said I should go by their description and not the photo. I ordered 2 of them and got 2 more Cavalry Carbines. So much for their description :-)

..................Buckshot

[BudRow]

I have several Argentines and either they are "tight chambered" or my RCBS "Belgian Mauser" dies size long. What I have done when reforming brass for it is to make a shim out of a pop can. I cut a strip of aluminum about .475" wide with sissors and round one end like your thumb nail. Use this shim BEWEEN the case head and shell holder. You'll want to remove the decapping pin or you will pierce the shim. This extra .003 or .004" will shove the case in far enough to push the shoulder back to allow chambering. Works for me and I have not altered the die or shell holder. This seems to be a common problem with these Argies as I have read many threads concerning this. Best Wishes, Bud

[nicholst55]

That's a nice looking one, Buckshot! Much nicer than the one I have.

[bstarling]

I really appreciate all of the good input on this thread. The two things I am getting from this are firstly the gun is going to get a substantial refurb if not a full refinish. It won't affect its value. The second thing is that this case chamber condition is common. The idea of either knocking off some of the die bottom or shimming up the shell holder makes the most sense. I got a few more case done last night by annealing the 06 cases and sizing in the die. They could then be cammed into the chamber with the bolt with substantial hand pressure. No bolt banging. I don't believe in it. The funny thing is I've had old Mausers especially 93 Spanish that were pretty long in the headspace and had to fire form cases to fit the chamber, but never had one with a short headspace condition. These guns really were made to some close tolerances. I see why folks like them so well.

Bill

[looseprojectile]

I have had a Cavalry carbine for several years. Buckshots picture could be a pic of mine. My rifle has been sanded and polished but it don't matter. Also my bolt number is two numbers off from the receiver. X39 & X41. Headspace is tight. These DWM Mausers are the pinnacle of rifle manufacturing IMHO.
Years ago surplus ammo made in San Francisco Argentina was available.
The talk on the internet forums was that it is not very good. I had already bought a case of it and believing the talk I was not happy. Until I shot some from my carbine. Turns out that this gun thinks it is a target rifle. Golf balls at 85 yards are easy to hit every time. A friend that was shooting with me set out a dozen medium sized eggs. I shot a magazine full at them and hit five. He said go ahead, I loaded five more, all hits. With issue sights. From a bench at 85. My bore is one of the slickest of any rifle I own. The muzzle is counterbored.
When I bought my carbine for two hundred I got nine boxes of Norma brass with it. Just for grins I fire formed some .308 brass in the gun, talk about short necks.
You will like your new rifle.

Life is good

[leadhead]

You do know that these mountain carbines are considered rare, as they only made 10,000
of them. I have two of them that are real good shooters with cast boolets. They all have
serial numbers starting with the letter A
Denny

[fouronesix]

A few thoughts.

It may be the FL sizer isn't setting the shoulder back far enough or the FL sizer isn't resizing the lower body enough. Grinding a few thous off the bottom of the sizer is easily done and might work. Annealing the necks is fine, annealing much below the shoulder isn't.

Take the rifle completely apart, repair the stock crack (s). Use 0000 steel wool dipped in paint remover. Work one area at a time. Wiping crud off with paper towels as you go. When done stripping old surface finish, use alcohol, 0000 steel wool and rags to finish cleaning off the stock. Let dry. Apply finish as desired.

Instead of fighting with and fiddling around with 06 brass just get some new 7.65x53 brass. It's about 55 per 100.

[leadman]

there is a length difference in the Argentine and Belgium cases I am told. I switched from the Lee Arg to the Belgium dies and my brass works fine now.
I do have the trim die that forms the brass very easily.
I have 3 7.65X53/54 rifles now and none of the chambers are the same length. I just make the brass fit the gun.

[Dutchman]

My dies are RCBS "Belgian". I use Norma and Graf brass and had no issues. I do also have a handful of USGI .30-06 converted to 7.65x53. My rifles are Argentine m/1909 rifle and m/1891 rifle.

Dutch

[EDG]

Hello Bill
I know a little bit about these and the loading dies and you may not like it if you have Lee dies.

The Lee dies are .010 too deep. I think this problem came from an old chamber reamer drawing from the 1930s.
The drawing claimed that the 1891 chambers were longer than the 1909 chambers by .010. I do not find that to be true.
The Lee dies are wrong. The FL sizer needs to be cut off a little.

I have also found that a very old CH trim die was about .020 short. This die was made back in the old days of CH and was not made by the current CH company. I also have a set of Hornady Pacific dies that are about .030 short. Why dies for this round are all over the place is a mystery. The short dies create excessive headspace so they are worse for the unsuspecting shooter than the too long dies.

I also have 2 RCBS sizer dies. Both are the same dimension and they both match 3 1891 rifles and 1 1909 rifle that I own.
They also agree with the excellent Wilson case headspace gauge that I own.

I would recommend that you buy or borrow a Hornady lock and load headspace guage set that attaches to your calipers.
Once you get that tool you can compare what comes out of your die with fired cases that come out of your chamber.

About the short neck. Once you get your sizing die fixed size a .30-06 case and leave the neck about .050 too long.
Expand the neck until it drags on the chamber neck. Then expand it a little more with a tapered punch. You can then force this trumpet shaped case mouth into the chamber and squeeze the neck down. The too long case will hang up at the end of the chamber. If the bolt does not close trim it .005, expand it again and try again. Eventually the bolt will try to close.
Once the bolt starts to close trim the case .001 at a time until it closes. Measure the case length. This is the lenght of that particular chamber. You can trim your cases to that length which will probably be about 2.140 (1mm longer than the case length) When the long cases are fired they will get shorter by .005 to .007. When resized they will get longer again.
Trim about .002 shorter than your chamber. This will give you maximum length necks for that rifle chamber.
The Mauser chambers have a square end at the case mouth. As long as you dont exceed your chamber length with a crimped round you will not have problems with the longer case necks.











Also trying to make cases from 30/06 has proven to be very interesting. They don't want to fit the chamber. I've gotten a couple to work, but several that are just plain too large to chamber. I'm trimming the 06 and sizing the neck to 7.65 and then running them into a FL die. There seems to be a lot of spring back in the case. I'm thinking annealing the cases prior to forming may help. I also wondering if this caliber will be reasonable with boolits. The case neck on these things is mighty short.

Any and all comments are appreciated.

Thanks, Bill :D