AAARRRGGHHH! Now what?

[jhalcott]

Those 2 inch groups from my 35 whelen seem to have grown UP! I went to the range today to make sure the Whelen was sighted in and practice a bit. The first shot hit high and left at 100 yards about 3", the second was low about 4"???? the 3rd almost hit the 1st. I do NOT know where #4 went but 5 was at 3 o'clock on the edge of the paper. I checked my notes and I did the same with these as I did before, but the results are different! I got a fire form load off the web and it is HOT!! It uses a charge of Varget and a 200 grain 358315 bullet, which I have. I am using Military brass as was the poster. I am going to cut back a few grains to see if that helps. At least the 6 mmAI was shooting excellent today. One inch groups at 200 yards. I cant wait to get to Maine and see 6" :cry: groups on that.

[Bret4207]

Is this a new load or one that worked in the past?

[versifier]

I know it's an obvious question, but did you check the scope bases and actions screws to see if something loosened up. When a proven load all of a sudden goes wacky like that, a handloader usually looks to the load: Did I screw something up when I loaded it? But we tend to take the simple things for granted in our quest to wrestle with the more complicated question.

[44man]

I have to agree with checking the gun first. I have had scopes get loose or go bad. The forearm could have shifted and is touching the barrel or the action screws are loose. 40 inch pounds on the front and 25 inch pounds on the rear screws please.
Changing humidity in the house can play hell with wood stocks if they are borderline in fit.

[jhalcott]

Yes ,I checked the gun inside and out.Did get a little lead but I THINK that came from the fire form loads. The stock is fiberglass and glass bedded to the action and about 2" of barrel. Checked to be sure it wasn't failing too. The primers were from the same lot,but a new box of 100. The powder is from the SAME can.
I thought doing the same thing and expecting different results was the definition of "crazy"! I was expecting the same results.?? I checked the BHN of these bullets and it is the same as the ACCURATE ones. I pulled 2 bullets to check the gas checks,one stayed on the other stayed in the case neck???? Could that be a problem? They are Hornady not Lyman checks.

[waksupi]

You are shooting a load you found on the web, and know it is a hot one? Hooboy! Work up the load for your rifle. Someone elses load may well be too much for your gun.

[jhalcott]

You are shooting a load you found on the web, and know it is a hot one? Hooboy! Work up the load for your rifle. Someone elses load may well be too much for your gun.

Yes I realize that .From other loading books this SEEMED to be a mild to mid load at best. The first one surprised me with the recoil so I checked the case. The primer was flatter than the load I was shooting for group (358318 load) Since these are in MILITARY cases ,I thought maybe it was a heavy,thick case. I shot another round with the same recoil and flatend primer. I cleaned the bore ,find ing a little lead streaking on the patch. I short stroked the patch thru the bore going in 4-6" then removing it for a looksee then another short stroke.Repeated till I got thru the muzzle, where I saw the lead. I still am getting a heavy "charcoal" like fouling like the last time I shot the load.
If this wasn't SOO much fun I'd take up knitting!

[Bass Ackward]

jh,

Well, you can have borderline loads. I have loads that will only shoot well around 32 degrees. Above 50 they lead like the dickens and become pie plate killers. You may have not cleaned your gun from the last time either. That charcoal stuff is called .... tar. If you leave it set, up it will harden like a rock. Then the first shot breaks seal and you begin leading. And then the lead begins to build.

But your target is very symptomatic of leading. Gat that stuff out of your barrel. Brush it when you finish and run a dry patch if nothing else. And get some Carnuba in your lube.

Try super glue on you GCs.

[44man]

Varget is a great powder and is not heat sensitive but it sounds like you are overloading it. You have no idea what the case capacity is for your brass compared to what the other fellow used. Personally, I don't like military brass. You also do not need hot loads to fireform. I would use the lightest load listed and would make sure the case was formed so it was held against the bolt face, either with a shoulder on the neck or by seating the boolit hard into the rifling.
Then you should work loads in half grain measurements and don't just pull a load from someone else.
To find a perfect load for all temperatures, first get the most accurate load and then load down a grain and then up a grain being carefull not to go over max if you are already close. All of these should shoot close to the same place and with close to the same accuracy. Then if it is hot or cold out, the load should not change much.
I think Varget will go down as one of the best powders ever made. I use it in everything from the 7BR, 6.5X55 to the 45-70 and I swear by it. I called Hodgden and inquired about using it in my 7BR pistol and they said it would not work. This is an MOA that is rifled for heavy silhouette bullets that I want to shoot 120 gr bullets from for deer. There was no way to get them to shoot until I went ahead and tried Varget. I now get sub 1" groups at 50 yd's, velocity is high, the powder burns clean and is a far cry from the 4" to 5" patterns all the other powders gave me.
I had an S.E.E in my 6.5 with the standard load of 4831. Varget has taken away the danger and shoots tight groups, most times less then 1/2" at 100 yd's. Not too shoddy for a 1919 Swede with a pitted bore. It will stack 129 and 140 gr bullets on top of each other.

[jhalcott]

Bass I make FWFL and use some carnuba in it,
The gun was cleaned when I got home every time(grand pa's training). I was thinking about the weather. The wind was from my 6 when I got the good groups,about 5-10 mph and fairly steady. Saturday the wind was from my 1-2 oclock gusting from under 10 mph to about 20 mph! These FLAT nosed bullets are starting at 1995 fps. 200 yard velocity is unknown. The temperature was only about 10 degrees cooler. Could the wind slow them down enough to make them act like Knuckle balls??

[The Double D]

Those 2 inch groups from my 35 whelen seem to have grown UP! I went to the range today to make sure the Whelen was sighted in and practice a bit. The first shot hit high and left at 100 yards about 3", the second was low about 4"???? the 3rd almost hit the 1st. I do NOT know where #4 went but 5 was at 3 o'clock on the edge of the paper. I checked my notes and I did the same with these as I did before, but the results are different! I got a fire form load off the web and it is HOT!! It uses a charge of Varget and a 200 grain 358315 bullet, which I have. I am using Military brass as was the poster. I am going to cut back a few grains to see if that helps. At least the 6 mmAI was shooting excellent today. One inch groups at 200 yards. I cant wait to get to Maine and see 6" :cry: groups on that.

I am bit confused here. You are getting 2 inch groups in the rifle, correct?

Then you fired some fireforming loads with military cases.

Are we talking two different loads here with two different set of components?

One set of components that goes 2 inches and one that goes all over the place fireforming military cases?

[Bass Ackward]

These FLAT nosed bullets are starting at 1995 fps. 200 yard velocity is unknown. The temperature was only about 10 degrees cooler. Could the wind slow them down enough to make them act like Knuckle balls??


JH,

I played around on the computer and shot directly into a 50 MPH wind. I set the BC at a terrible .185 since I don't know for sure what your bullet looks like. The worst case velocity at 200 yards is 1296 fps. So is that enough to cause the problem? The description of groups sure sounds like leading. I would still bet on the barrel leading / fouling myself?

But try it again at both 100 / 200 again and see while you monitor for leading.

[jhalcott]

The ones For group are 358318's that I flat nosed by hand.The FF load is the 358315 bullet.They are the HOT load.I scrubbed the bore again last night and found it clean. Other than the weather I can't think of any thing that would have caused this. It wasn't a hurry up and shoot day! I took plenty of time between shots.I had to put my truck in the shop for a pre trip checkup so I did not get to the range today. Is that "TAR" like substance from the LLA or the LLA over FWFL?
THE other big question is "WAS the good group day a fluke?"

[44man]

OH MY, don't contaminate Felix lube with that crap! (LLA) No wonder the gun won't shoot!

[D.Mack]

Just one Question ... Were you using military brass the first time? Military brass is much heavier, and has less case capacity, delivering higher pressures with the same load.

[Bass Ackward]

The ones For group are 358318's that I flat nosed by hand.The FF load is the 358315 bullet.They are the HOT load.I scrubbed the bore again last night and found it clean. Other than the weather I can't think of any thing that would have caused this. It wasn't a hurry up and shoot day! I took plenty of time between shots.I had to put my truck in the shop for a pre trip checkup so I did not get to the range today. Is that "TAR" like substance from the LLA or the LLA over FWFL?
THE other big question is "WAS the good group day a fluke?"


JH,

Anytime you combine carbon and a petroleum product, the byproduct is tar. This is why it can harden, depending on the combination of stuff. This is seldom a problem with faster powders, but at the low pressure you are running, you probably are getting it. You don't mention much about load, but when I ran Varget with an ACWW 210 grainer, my peek accuracy load was 49 grains with a pistol primer for about 2200 fps and slightly over an inch. So at 1995, you must be a few grains below that.

The easy way to tell if fouling is getting the best of you is to fire one group normally. Then run a light fitting dry patch through in between shots for the next group. If it shoots better, then you obviously have a problem. This is why I changed bullet designs to what I have now with a scraper. Or you could be having ignition problems at that low pressure and need a tuft of toilet paper for filler. I cut one sheet into four squares and use one. Put it down in the neck and let the bullet shove it down.

Define .... flat nosed .... by hand.

I do use LLA on my 35 rounds. But I paint it on with a Q-Tip after loading and only on the drive band. I seat to engrave the lands and the purpose of the LLA is to allow me to extract the case without pulling the bullet if the case wasn't fired. Takes very little.

[jhalcott]

Bass ,I'm using 44 grains/varget. I run the bullets in my cordless drill and "circumcise" them with a dremel tool.just removing the round noses,this gives them a .230 +/- a couple thousandths flat nose. I shot some of the rn's thru water jugs and phone books with poor results. The FN's were MUCH more effective,disintergrating 3 gallon milk jugs and damaging a few more. They were stopped by 19"s of wet phone books .The RN's penetrated out the back of the bale 20+"And went thru all seven gallon jugs, I was getting patterns till I over lubed some with LLA. I just read in my book that I was getting this BLACK stuff in my 22-250 when I used Varget.?? That gun has never seen a cast bullet. The jug of Varget was /is old but unopened when I got it. Daxxx I seem to be finding more problems than fixes!

[Bass Ackward]

JH,

I remember now.

It can take time. Best accuracy always seems to come right before the pressure level where the mix (hardness) lets go and leading begins. If the spot where the mix lets go happens to be inside a harmonal node of the barrel, then you can get really great accuracy. If those two events don't coincide, then you can be out there wondering what happened.

You may be at the end of a node for your barrel. So you may need to cut back a grain or change to a pistol primer until you stop leading.

Are you comfortable you have the right diameter and everything? I ask because Felix lube should handle that pressure level and more.

[jhalcott]

Bass ,As I said earlier, I only went to LLA because the bullets SEEMED to be loose in the bore,nose riding area. I "fattened" them up with a coating of LLA. The next 5 shots were a 2" group at 100 . I loaded some more and repeated the 2" @100 and about 4" @200 .Also a 5 round group @150 around 3"the same day.
I then cast another 10 pounds from the same alloy mix as before. Gas checked about 100 and felix lubed them in a .309 sizer die followed by a coating of LLA.Later in the week,I loaded them in 35 whelen cases with WLR's and 44/varget to the same overall length as the first ones.Tommorrow I am going to try a group at 100 and 150 to see if I am right about the weather thing.The bore is clean,scope feels tight ,bedding looks great. Tommorrow the weather guy says will be cloudy,64 degrees ,light winds.

[44man]

What sounds funny to me is a .309 size die for a .35, is that a typo?

[PAT303]

Keep shootin' that varget 44man it's a top aussie product! Pat

[jhalcott]

Yea , I meant a 359 die,but was typing faster than my fingers work!
Any how ,today at the range weather was nice and SUNNY, 5mph wind & 61 degrees. The first 3 shots were about 5" @ 100 yards. The next ELEVEN shots were under 3 1/2"!! The LAST 5 were about 2" ctoc.
I tried a product called Tetra Gun years ago. A bore cleaner and treatment product. It said "After use it may take a few shots for the barrel to stabilize" Which meant 20 to 40 shots often. MAYBE I am cleaning too much!? I shot a 5 shot group of the RN version and got around 2"with them.