Surplus powders

[SkookumJeff]

I'd read somewhere recently that the current federal administration has implemented a policy to not sell surplus smokeless powder to the consumer market. I have been watching all the sites I know of that market surplus smokeless powder, waiting for inventory to change. It hasn't, seems to support the idea that Obie and his ilk won't let any be sold. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this rumor? I hope not...

[KYCaster]

Well, you can't blame the Kenyan for this one. You have to go back to a previous administration....no, not W either. Slick Willy is the culprit. With a stroke of the Executive Order pen, he commanded that surp ammo be incenerated before disposal.

What a guy!!

Jerry

BTW....check GIBrass.com. Jeff has added some powder recently.

[waksupi]

Clinton did shut it down, or at least some of his minions did. I have seen some recent references that powder may soon return to surplus market. This is connected to the saving of brass last year,that was to be destroyed. The way I read the proposed bill, it would be illegal for them to destroy usable surplus items.

[SkookumJeff]

~ I have seen some recent references that powder may soon return to surplus market. This is connected to the saving of brass last year,that was to be destroyed. The way I read the proposed bill, it would be illegal for them to destroy usable surplus items.

Ahh. That's great news. I'd like to see that Bill if you know the number. I would contact my representatives and ask them to vote their approval. Given the colossal debt this country has accumulated, IMO the federal government should be trying to generate revenue any way they can so long as it doesn't additionally burden the citizens, especially considering that they just can't seem to quit spending money they don't have.

So Clinton made this change. Well...those were sure different times. Thanks for the responses.

[Shiloh]

I hope you are correct about the surplus powders Waksupi!!

Shiloh

[waksupi]

I'm not positive where I saw this, most likely on Steve Wenger's daily newsletter.

Check around here.

http://www.spw-duf.info/

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Remember who was behind SLICK WILLY CLINTON,-- AND NOT ENTIRELY IN THE SHADOWS.Remember who is secretary of state & wants to be the 1st woman president.
Jeff Cooper gave us a early warning about "she who's name should not be mentioned" in the gun site gossip he wrote, before Billy Boy was elected.
He was right. KEEP WATCHING!:Fire::Fire:

[MakeMineA10mm]

HI,
Remember who was behind SLICK WILLY CLINTON,-- AND NOT ENTIRELY IN THE SHADOWS.Remember who is secretary of state & wants to be the 1st woman president.
Jeff Cooper gave us a early warning about "she who's name should not be mentioned" in the gun site gossip he wrote, before Billy Boy was elected.
He was right. KEEP WATCHING!:Fire::Fire:

:drinks:

Another issue one must remember is that the US military has not abandoned a caliber for many years, combined with the fact that we've been at war for almost 10 years now.

The last caliber we officially abandoned was, arguably, the 45ACP. The M9 replaced the 1911 in the mid-80s, but there weren't enough M9s in inventory to replace all the 1911s until the 90s. Some units still issue pistols in the 45 ACP chambering (mainly Special Forces and Marine Corps MEUs) and I know there were some M3 Grease Guns still floating around (mostly in armored and transportation units' inventories) as recently as the mid-90s. So, my best guess is that it was 45 ammunition that was incinerated by the "evil C's" rather than released on the market.

The caliber before that which we abandoned was the good old 30-06. I bought some of the last surplus brass to hit the market in that caliber in the mid-90s, so I think most of it got out before the "evil C's" could destroy it.

30 Carbine was gone before the 30-06.

Combine the fact that our military uses all the calibers of ammo that would still be stockpiled, combined with the fact that we've been at war for 10 years (training ammo expenditures I'm sure have gone up as well as actual combat use of ammo), and I'd be surprised if the US military has any surplus for the foreseeable future.

What may happen is that the contracts to produce ammo 24/7/365 might still be in full swing when the war ends, and that could produce a mini-surplus, but that will probably go into storage and be held there to re-build that, and it won't be surplused for another 20-30 years after that -- if there's any left that wasn't shot up in training in the interim (because they usually use up the old stuff first).

Foreign surplus is a potential, but it depends too. I remember watching a show about the German govt. (just after East and West Germany re-unified) proudly putting some former-East Germans to work breaking down the old stockpiles of E. German 7.62x39 ammo. I thought to myself -- Crazy! They could just as well put them to work re-boxing it into commercial boxes and transporting and selling it over here in America! The show also declared how the peace-loving unified Germany govt. was also mandating that all components of the ammunition MUST be destroyed. The factory burned the powder in it's boilers to make heat and electricity to run the plant. The brass, copper, lead, and steel were all separated out, melted down, and sold as scrap. Don't remember what they did with the primers, but I seem to recall incineration(?).

So, you see, we are at the whim of politics no matter where we turn. Combine that with the powder plants in Asia, Eastern Europe, and Russia, where people are begging for work, even at low wages, and there are brand new powders available which can be gotten cheaply. (Rex powders are a good example.) This also cuts into the market for surplus powders.

Look at Jeff's website. He's selling 8-lb kegs of WC680 for the same OR MORE than what I can buy commercial equivalents for off my dealers shelves!! Why would I buy from him, when I can buy cannister powders with reliable load data available for less money (plus no shipping or Haz-Mat fee)??

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I hope & pray Waksupi is right!
I sure could use 20 lbs. of the disappeared Russian Unique.
I agree we are at the mercy of the politicians of all countries in the matter.
We can only hope to effect the ones in our own countries.
I still pick up range brass in military 30 carb., 30/06, 45 acp, 38 occasionally.
Lots of fired 9mm ,223, & Russian 30 laying on the ground.
Just not much of what I use, DARN!!!!!!!!!:Fire::Fire:

[Ed in North Texas]

I still pick up range brass in military 30 carb., 30/06, 45 acp, 38 occasionally.
Lots of fired 9mm ,223, & Russian 30 laying on the ground.
Just not much of what I use, DARN!!!!!!!!!:Fire::Fire:

You mean we're supposed to shoot whatever brass we pick up? I thought we were supposed to pick up the brass and, after we collected enough of one caliber, we buy a firearm which shoots that caliber. Dang, I've had it wrong all these years. Don't tell my wife. She thinks I have too many guns as it is ("What do you NEED it for?").

[Armorer]

Lots of fired 9mm ,223, & Russian 30 laying on the ground.
Just not much of what I use, DARN!!!!!!!!!:Fire::Fire:

Thats for trading! I pick up everything I can get away with from the range. It costs me $10 to shoot a pistol so I figure I "have to" pick up my brass. If other brass gets mixed in... I just save the calibers that I don't load because I just know someone on here can use it.

Armorer

[TCLouis]

Sometimes the stroke of a Presidential pen avoids all of that silly wrangling over the intent/content of a Bill.

Federal or State level Executive Orders can be more damaging than all Bills combined . . .

Especially in a land of sheepeople.

[cosmoline one]

Thats for trading! I pick up everything I can get away with from the range. It costs me $10 to shoot a pistol so I figure I "have to" pick up my brass. If other brass gets mixed in... I just save the calibers that I don't load because I just know someone on here can use it.

Armorer

+1on trading. I'd trade for some of that 7.62x39 right now!

[Ed in North Texas]

:drinks:

snip

Look at Jeff's website. He's selling 8-lb kegs of WC680 for the same OR MORE than what I can buy commercial equivalents for off my dealers shelves!! Why would I buy from him, when I can buy cannister powders with reliable load data available for less money (plus no shipping or Haz-Mat fee)??

You are a lucky man to have a dealer who sells 8 lbs of Accurate 1680 at that price, or less. I know you realize that you are paying the shipping and Haz-Mat fee, just spread out over a larger number of canisters (and I guess your state does not exclude powder from sales taxes). No company stays in business eating these costs. My nearest "stocking" dealer I won't use after he told me he charges 18% of the sale price to run a firearm through his book for an internet sale*. Not all dealers are as reasonable as yours, and there are few who are as unreasonable as my closest.

* I know some dealers don't like sales from websites like GunBroker, but 18% is outrageous when others are charging a flat fee of $15 or $20 as long as they don't have that firearm in stock. I try and make sure to buy from a dealer just to make sure there is one around for non-C&R firearms.

[blaser.306]

Just to put things into perspective , Well not realy ! I just found 1 dealer here that can even get AA 1680 and he wants $ 316.00 for 8 lbs !!! Before delivery and has mat !!! I think heel be keeping it ?

[MakeMineA10mm]

Wow, that's ugly guys!

Another thing I'd recommend, is that you check out some of the close-equivalents which are not identical powders. A good alternative for most applications of 680/1680 would be 2200Data. I believe it's not a ball powder, but it should work well anywhere the 680s are called for. --- One of the biggest problems with surplus and things like 2200 Data, is the spotty availability of a continuous supply. It's a trade-off we have to deal with for the cheaper prices, I'm afraid.

My local dealer gets his powders shipped freight truck direct, so no Haz-Mat BS from the high-priced shipping companies, and actual shipping, spread out over an entire truck-load of stuff is pretty cheap (again, cheaper than the brown truck). He marks things up very reasonably, and I can rarely find something cheaper at Powder Valley. I used to find it cheaper at Jeff's website, but part of my above lament is that Jeff's prices have gone up so much that he's no longer competitive when the shipping and Haz-Mat are added in.

How's Powder Valley compare to your local dealer? I'd be using PVI, and pointing it out to the local dealer...

[Longwood]

How many of us shoot surplus powder?
Do you use it in a rifle?
Pistol?
Which surplus powders have you tried and in what calibers?
Thanks

[wiljen]

How many of us shoot surplus powder?
Do you use it in a rifle?
Pistol?
Which surplus powders have you tried and in what calibers?
Thanks

Not to offend, but a lot of that info is floating around the board and castpics in too many threads to repeat here. I would start by searching on the term "Surplus Powder" then expand the search by entering names of different powders.

I have used too many to remember off the top of my head starting with the early lots of 4831 and 4895 you could buy in paper sacks at the hardware store when I was a kid.

[DukeInFlorida]

Up here, in Maine.........

We call that, "Wicked OLD!"

haha I also remember those days..... makes me JUST as old.



I have used too many to remember off the top of my head starting with the early lots of 4831 and 4895 you could buy in paper sacks at the hardware store when I was a kid.

[Longwood]

Thanks, I will try searching farther.
I will also try to narrow it down some.
Do you sometimes use surplus powders that are now available and are presently for sale.
Or maybe I should have said.
Do you sometimes use a surplus powder in big straight case rifle cartridges for fun shooting?
If so, what is your favorite.
Have you ever used WC 860? If yes, do you use a little fast powder to help light it?
Do you recommend a heavy crimp to slow down the exit of the bullet and hopefully improve ignition and powder burn?
Do you ever shoot big heavy 500+gr bullets using WC860?
I don't have any other surplus powders so am presently uninterested in other powders.
Thanks kindly

[midnight]

I see Wideners still has WC867 and WC872 in stock at $49 for 8lbs. This is really slow powder. My brother and I bought 80lbs of WC872 for the 50BMG. Its also useful in the 6.5x 55. It also works with any large capacity case and heavy bullets but so far I've only used it in the BMG. It pushed an 833gr bullet 2300fps with only 190gr of WC872. Now maybe if I can get one of those Cruise Missiles for the 6.5x55.

Bob

[Longwood]

Thanks
I went out and tried a few different loads today. Even with a full case of the WC860 behind the 535gr Postell, and even more powder behind the 405 gr bullets, I am comfortable with the recoil. I sure hope I can work up some loads and get good accuracy with it.
I may try adding a couple of grains of a fast powder next to the primer to help light the WC860.

[evan price]

Something t oconsider with surplus components is that it does not necessarily mean that they are 'old' items such as 25-yr-old pulldown, but they could be.

Ammo that is manufactured under contract for a military group has to meet a published specification such as velocity, accuracy, pressure, water resistance, feeding, etc. and if Uncle Sugar orders 1.5 million rounds of 7.62 ammo, they will accept it in lots for testing. If the tested samples fail to meet the spec they will reject the whole lot of (new) ammo.
Previously, these brand-new rejected lots would be pulled down and resold as surplus components since they were not 'safe' to sell as-is for liability reasons. That's where most surplus components came from in the recent past.
Since Billy C's XO in the 90's, now those components are the ones which must be destroyed.

Currently all that is allowed to be sold as surplus is lots which are sourced from orders for foriegn governments, lots which were never delivered to the .gov, or lots which were determined to be substandard and not yet loaded into military ammo.

It's a fine nit to pick, but that's the law of the land lately.

Despite the war and training schedules there is still lots of ammo and production runs which must be scrapped.

ATK runs the Lake City plant; de facto all of Lake City's output is owned by the .gov and usually not available to be surplused. However let's say they contract a lot of ammo for a NATO partner and that fails. It was never owned by the .gov it was for NATO so it might be surplused. Or they might have a lot of M80 bullets that had too much piece-to-piece weight variation that was found before it was loaded. THose are sometimes surplused.

One problem with the surplus chain right now is the primary metals market has gotten so expensive that selling brass or bullets as surplus might not make as much money as scrapping them and remelting to make new components.

Back in the day Talon was the company that did most of the demilling for the civilian market, I don't know who's doing it now.

[wiljen]

I've shot 860 in the 45-70 with a few grains of either 4227 or 4198 beneath it to get less unburnt garbage in the barrel. This practice is only safe in compressed loads where it holds that faster charge against the primer, but it does help with ignition on those ultra-slow burners.

[Longwood]

I've shot 860 in the 45-70 with a few grains of either 4227 or 4198 beneath it to get less unburnt garbage in the barrel. This practice is only safe in compressed loads where it holds that faster charge against the primer, but it does help with ignition on those ultra-slow burners.
Thanks
I will try it, I did see the trash left behind in the barrel that others have mentioned and would like to try and see if I can blow or burn it out a little bit cleaner.
I did and will use a full case with Dacron or other type of filler if loading a less than full case.
The weather has changed to very nice out so I will be doing some serious shooting and testing. I want at least one fairly mild load so ladies and boys won't mind shooting the rifle.

[doubs43]

For more than 20 years I've used duplex loads with cast boolits in my 45-70 rifles. In fact, yesterday I shot 405 grain boolits using 3.5 grains of WW-231 & 56.0 grains of WC-860. Accuracy was very good.

For many years in my C. Sharps Business rifle in 45-70 I used the RCBS 300 grain GC boolit with 3.0 grains of either Bullseye or WW-231 topped by 57.0 grains of AA-8700. When 8700 dried up, I went with WC-860 grain for grain. When the 860 is used up, I'll switch to WC-872 grain for grain.

In the 38-55 I use the 2.080" Winchester cases and the 248 grain Lyman boolit with 2.5 grains of WW-231 & 34.0 grains of WC-860. Accuracy is excellent in my Winchester Hi-Wall. Using the 2.125" Starline brass, I use the identical load only with the RCBS 312 BPS boolit. That load is for 350 yard rams while I used the lighter Lyman boolits for chickens, pigs and turkeys out to 200 yards.

Yesterday I also shot some duplex test loads in 40-65 using 300 grain boolits in a new rifle. When I have the load I want, I'll post it. Accuracy was acceptable but I know I can do better and working with a new rifle requires some experimenting.

[Longwood]

For more than 20 years I've used duplex loads with cast boolits in my 45-70 rifles. In fact, yesterday I shot 405 grain boolits using 3.5 grains of WW-231 & 56.0 grains of WC-860. Accuracy was very good.

For many years in my C. Sharps Business rifle in 45-70 I used the RCBS 300 grain GC boolit with 3.0 grains of either Bullseye or WW-231 topped by 57.0 grains of AA-8700. When 8700 dried up, I went with WC-860 grain for grain. When the 860 is used up, I'll switch to WC-872 grain for grain.

In the 38-55 I use the 2.080" Winchester cases and the 248 grain Lyman boolit with 2.5 grains of WW-231 & 34.0 grains of WC-860. Accuracy is excellent in my Winchester Hi-Wall. Using the 2.125" Starline brass, I use the identical load only with the RCBS 312 BPS boolit. That load is for 350 yard rams while I used the lighter Lyman boolits for chickens, pigs and turkeys out to 200 yards.

Yesterday I also shot some duplex test loads in 40-65 using 300 grain boolits in a new rifle. When I have the load I want, I'll post it. Accuracy was acceptable but I know I can do better and working with a new rifle requires some experimenting.
Thanks muchly
You are definitely correct about a new gun needing a bit of testing to work up accurate loads. Part of the fun though.
I have about 12 lbs of 231 and several other faster powders to experiment with. I plan on shooting the Highwall a lot but don't want too "Break the bank" for the powder.
I have been shooting since 1954 and seriously reloading since about 1980 when I tried silhouette pistols shooting for a while. I only knew of one gun (Blackhawk 44) blowing up till then and he was using duplex loads and blew off the nose and part of a cheek on the next shooter over, so after seeing that, I have steered clear of them. Now that I have about four times as much steel around the cartridge I plan on trying it.
I have some LEE molds for 45 cal bullets that I plan on enlarging so I can try some much lighter bullets in it and may even try some 10 gr with fast powder loads also. I want to try Unique in three different rifles but I can't seem to find it anywhere. I have one of the old square cans of Unique but I hate to break the tin seal on it. When I think about it though, I have no idea why I am saving it.
I can tell already,,,, this summer is going to be exciting!

[Longwood]

For more than 20 years I've used duplex loads with cast boolits in my 45-70 rifles. In fact, yesterday I shot 405 grain boolits using 3.5 grains of WW-231 & 56.0 grains of WC-860. Accuracy was very good.

For many years in my C. Sharps Business rifle in 45-70 I used the RCBS 300 grain GC boolit with 3.0 grains of either Bullseye or WW-231 topped by 57.0 grains of AA-8700. When 8700 dried up, I went with WC-860 grain for grain. When the 860 is used up, I'll switch to WC-872 grain for grain.

In the 38-55 I use the 2.080" Winchester cases and the 248 grain Lyman boolit with 2.5 grains of WW-231 & 34.0 grains of WC-860. Accuracy is excellent in my Winchester Hi-Wall. Using the 2.125" Starline brass, I use the identical load only with the RCBS 312 BPS boolit. That load is for 350 yard rams while I used the lighter Lyman boolits for chickens, pigs and turkeys out to 200 yards.

Yesterday I also shot some duplex test loads in 40-65 using 300 grain boolits in a new rifle. When I have the load I want, I'll post it. Accuracy was acceptable but I know I can do better and working with a new rifle requires some experimenting.
I sure wish there was a range closer to me that shoots Rifle Silhouette. I sure do like seeing those steel critters topple over.
I never did win a match when I was shooting the big bore pistols but I did shoot some 40's before I quit. I had 38 trophies when I quit and the ranges I shot were close to LA CA and had a whole lot of competition .
BTW,, Nobody could out shoot the ten year old.