Spittin .500 Performance Center

[Ron60]

Both my friend and I have 7.5" barreled 500 S&W Performance Centers. ALL cast bullits occasionally - and painfully spit lead bits back at us. Safety glasses with big lenses are a must! But even then we get hit in the face and ears by bits spitting back from time to time. Always on the left side - we are both right handed shooters. It really messes with your concentration. I am convinced the bits are bouncing off the rearward faces of the slots in the compensators.
Has anyone else had this problem WITH THE PERFORMANCE CENTERS?
I am toying with the idea of carefully grinding an angle on the side of the compensator slot that faces the shooter. I have to clean lead off of these faces after every session.
I thought that if the angle were different it would be apt to cause the bits to angle away from my face. The angle would be to the front. Then I would give it a good polish. I know this may case some degredation in the function of the compensator but I'm not terribly concerned about it. The worst I might have to do is do the same on the other side to illiminate any imbalance in how the gun recoils from side to side.
Would love to know if anyone else is having this problem.
Would be nice to think that perhaps S&W has re-designed the Performanc Center compensator. There's no problem with jacketed bullets - but who wants to waste their money on those?

[oneokie]

Is the comp just shaving on the left side? If so, sounds like it is not properly aligned.

[jblee10]

How bad is your barrel leading? Are you sure it's lead? Do you have any kind of accuracy with that load? I would think if chunks of lead are coming off the base of the bullet that it wouldn't be worth shooting.

[smoked turkey]

I have a regular production 500 (not performance center). I have also noticed some lead shavings coming back on my face. I haven't shot it enough to arrive at the conclusion that you have but I will make it a point to check that out to see if that is where the spitting is coming from. For a gun of this price and quality it is totally unacceptable. I had wondered what action I should take with S&W. Thanks for bring this up.

[Ron60]

First; NO leading at all. I'm using a 500 grain truncated design I had made by Dan and Mountain Molds and size them .501 which is exactly groove to groove size. Also had Alpha Precision hone the cylinder throats to .501. The castings are nice and straight and size equally all the way round. It is a gas checked bullet and I use Rooster (red) lube.
Accuracy with 33 grains of H 110 is superb!
When I was cleaning the gun I noticed that lead adhered to all the slots in the compensator so I assume it spits 360 degrees. Due to being right handed we only catch it on the left side of our faces.
I do not let anyone stand in line with the muzzle or anywhere near it.
I'm thinking about shoot it in a cardboard tube to see if the spitting is in deed 360 degrees or mostly on one side or the other.
The fact that I don't get hit very often tells me I should also look to potential problem with my casting process.
I know my luber is not shearing any material and leaving it in the lube rings.
In view of the fact you can insert a loaded cartridge clear to the muzzle through the compensator, I'd say it would be pretty hard to get one mis-aligned enough to shear lead, but I suppose almost anything is possible.
Hope someone else has dealt with this. I'd love to know if anyone has found a fix.

[Lloyd Smale]

my first 500 linebaugh was doing it and i thought it was the gun. I sent it back to John and he checked it out and said everything was fine. Ended up being an out of round star die that was making my bullets oblong.

[44man]

Try making the boolits hard, harder and even harder! Sounds like they are expanding into the comp.

[Bass Ackward]

Make sure that the gun is unloaded and look at the gun from the muzzle paying attention to the line in the frame for fit of the crane. You can also remove the cylinder and shine a light through the window. If you can see light, then you are off. If that is good, and the brass mark on the recoil shield look uniform, then I doubt it's the gun.

One other test is to clean the cylinder face very well and measure the BC gap. It should be uniform on both sides. If it ain't dead nuts, then you are canted and it comes back to the crane alignment.

If canted and not corrected, the gun will shoot loose to compensate and wear the cone. There are other ways to check, but People generally can do these.

[44man]

Make sure that the gun is unloaded and look at the gun from the muzzle paying attention to the line in the frame for fit of the crane. You can also remove the cylinder and shine a light through the window. If you can see light, then you are off. If that is good, and the brass mark on the recoil shield look uniform, then I doubt it's the gun.

One other test is to clean the cylinder face very well and measure the BC gap. It should be uniform on both sides. If it ain't dead nuts, then you are canted and it comes back to the crane alignment.

If canted and not corrected, the gun will shoot loose to compensate and wear the cone. There are other ways to check, but People generally can do these.
Sounds like he is saying the spitting is from the comp, not the gap.

[bhn22]

Are you sure it's lead? Unburned powder granules achieve amazing velocity & hurt like the dickens when they hit you. I've been 10+ feet away from guys shooting hot 38 Supers & have gotten seriously stung by powder granules. I've had the same encounters with magnum revolvers. Slow ball powders seen to be the worst offenders. If you're shaving lead somehow, I'd expect accuracy to be suffering too.

[Ron60]

I'm sure it's both lead and powder. I would not doubt also that it may be dirt and other 'stuff' that gets into the lube when handling the bullets both before and after they are sized and lubed. I'll be getting more careful about that.
Something that tends to make me think it's part of the compensators design or something about the bullets is that BOTH my friends gun and mine to the very same thing. Mine is # 0290 and his is brand new with a much higher serial number.
Now, the fact that three different bullet weights and three styles do the same thing, points my litte BB brain back to the compensator.
Because of the accuracy we are getting I'm wondering how they could shoot so well and obturate so much upon leaving the muzzle so as to deposit lead on the compensator which is significantly larger diameter than the bullet.
Going to try that shooting through a tube thing tomorrow if the weather allows. Will get back with results.
Thanks for the replies.
PS: I'm using straight wheel weight, well fluxed and dropped on to several layers of shop towels very carefully to avoid 'bending' the castings. Again; I'm getting zero leading.

[Ron60]

It's mostly lube - - -
Just came in from the range. Took my glasses off to clean them and noted that the left lense had specs all over it - none on the right. Got some magnifiers out and found that the specs were bullet lube - could even make out the red color. An asside is my friend and I took a few video clip of these things being shot single hand hold. The torque to the left is very evident!
Anyway we now know that much of what's coming back at us is the lube. I also shot with the muzzle enclosed in a box to get an idea of how much stuff is squirting out the compensator (to the sides). It's lots! And it's mostly lube and a little powder residue. Did not find any lead bits - but again there is some stuck to the inside of the slots on the compensator.
Emailed Smith $ Wesson and will wait on what they have to say before I do any modifications to the compensator.
Other than that these things are just an absolute hoot to shoot! Never had a wheel gun I like and enjoy as much as this beast. Best of all it's a plumb center shooter with the 500 grain bullets.

[smoked turkey]

Thanks for the info. Since I have experienced the same problem I will be interested in what Smith & Wesson has to say.

[Ron60]

Does anyone know how to simply remove the muzzle break / compensator? I have some ideas but this is one project I wouldn't really care to screw up. I have a lathe and do lots of traditional muzzle loading gun making but that's a whole different world. Still if I could get the thing off I think I could toy aroun with making something myself.

[Lloyd Smale]

i thought when the 500s first came out that there was an optional compensator you could buy that was specificaly made for cast bullet shooting.

[milltownhunter]

i had the same out of a 10.5 '' and not out of my 4'' i have had no problems with jacket bullets out of the 10.5''

[69daytona]

I have a 4", 6.5" and 10.5" and have never had a problem with any spitting. I use BAC white label lube on allow my cast Boolits and size them to ..501. Maybe try a softer lube.

[Bass Ackward]

Yep, missed it about the break having been identified. That's the beautiful thing about this site, you can pass right on over stuff that you know ( I wrote) to be wrong. :grin:

[pdawg_shooter]

my first 500 linebaugh was doing it and i thought it was the gun. I sent it back to John and he checked it out and said everything was fine. Ended up being an out of round star die that was making my bullets oblong.

If the spitting was at the barrel cylinder gap then out of round bullets may have been the problem. However if it is at the comp, I cannot see how the bullet could be out of round after being shoved down a round barrel with thousands of pounds of pressure behind it. If the bullet upsets in the cylinder throat and the throat is round I would guess the bullet will be round when it enters the barrel.

[bdutro]

Softer lube?

[stubshaft]

Softer lube?

Not going to matter. Due to the friction and pressure it is probably liquefied as it exits.

[Moonie]

Perhaps 45/45/10?

[Ron60]

Checked my sized bullets - they are round.
Got word back from S&W and all they offered was to have me send in the gun for inspection which I surmize will result in nothing being found.
All I want to know from them is how to get the darned compensator off but no ones talking. Remember this is the Performance Center and the brake is not removable.

[44man]

Some guns just need the darn things. I was shooting a friends .50 BMG and the blast blew my right muff off my ear and all the noise hit me. I should have had plugs too.
But since there is space between the bore size and the comp size, lead in the comp slots is not good. Something is happening to the boolit as it leaves the rifling.
Just lube is OK but there should not be lead there.

[Bass Ackward]

What a lot of people don't realise that "think" they are not leading is that they really are, they just can't find evidence of it yet.

The next bullet is removing lead in front of it until it can't do that any more and buildup occurs.

Some times, when bullets get really hard, they don't engrave, but they cut and those chunks just follow the slug out. Bigger than bore bullets in newer guns (sharp leades angles) make this occur sooner and can actually cup the base if the bore sizing is far enough.

If you are running high enough muzzle pressure with PB, the hot gas IS going to rush past the bullet when it exits being lighter that will make the bullet a bevel base to an extent too. That lead gotta go someplace.

I learned this years ago watching a guy discover this shooting off the hood of his newer model truck.

So, you will get lead exiting the muzzle at times, even if my theories for the actual causes are wrong.

[44man]

What a lot of people don't realise that "think" they are not leading is that they really are, they just can't find evidence of it yet.

The next bullet is removing lead in front of it until it can't do that any more and buildup occurs.

Some times, when bullets get really hard, they don't engrave, but they cut and those chunks just follow the slug out. Bigger than bore bullets in newer guns (sharp leades angles) make this occur sooner and can actually cup the base if the bore sizing is far enough.

If you are running high enough muzzle pressure with PB, the hot gas IS going to rush past the bullet when it exits being lighter that will make the bullet a bevel base to an extent too. That lead gotta go someplace.

I learned this years ago watching a guy discover this shooting off the hood of his newer model truck.

So, you will get lead exiting the muzzle at times, even if my theories for the actual causes are wrong.
Yes Bass, this is right on the money, you have explained it very well.
Shorter barrels increase muzzle pressure so those that want a huge caliber in a 4" barrel and need a comp on it are just making more problems for themselves.
Been there, done that and trying to get a 30-30 or 45-70 to shoot right with a 10" barrel is a real pain and then you read about guys that want to cut a 45-70 to 5"----Just what are they thinking?
Some of our new revolvers are so over bore capacity it is crazy and powder burn and pressure is not over at the muzzle.
I hate under 7-1/2" in a revolver although I got great results to 6". I really love the guy that wants a .500 S&W in a 4" gun for carry.

[Tommy Kelly]

I have a 500 S&W 4". Mine doesn't spit anything as noticed. I shoot mostly jacketed bullets but have a few of the 700 gr cast made by ranger rick's out of alaska that I have shot through it. I was super supprized that the recoil didn't seem much at all different between the 2. I used the data ranger rick sent me for his bullets when I bought them for the load on the 700gr bullets. They shot fine out of my pistol. I didn't even change out the muzzle break to the cast bullet break that came with the gun. I noticed no difference except the cast break is a little longer and sticks out of the front of the gun and doesn't use the top vents. The 700 gr bullets aren't suggested for the 4" guns but I talked with ranger rick before getting them and he said he had shot over 900 out of his 500 4" with no problem.

[Ron60]

Just a quick note to remind those who have an interest in this thread. We are dealing with 2 identical revolvers. Both are 7.5 Performance Centers. One is pretty early with a serial number of 290, the other is brand new. Both to the same thing with the same "country mix" of various bullet weights and two types of lube. One was some old Alox that required to heating to flow and the other Rooter Red that does have to be lubed.
Both exhibit the same nasty spitting habit. So I'm not inclined to think it's cylinder alignment, out of round bullets, or skywarbled compensator. Not sure about the hardness of the lube being a problem either.
The primary load is a 500 grain bullet over 33 grains of H 110 with large rifle primer.
Again - perhaps sometime today (Alaska time) I'll run out and see if my next experiment makes any difference. If so I'll try to figure out how to include a photo or two.

[Ron60]

PS: The idea that some leading is pushed out by the next round makes a lot of sense and helps explain some of what's going on! More anxious than ever now to see if my little modification will help.
I got my pistol used. But it had very few rounds through it. Mostly cast. This makes me wonder if getting a couple hundred jacketed anything and shooting them up would help smooth the bore up a little. It does look really new and the edges of the lands are very, very crisp.
Thanks for that information - really makes sense!

[Ron60]

OK, if the photo comes through you'll see what I did to the muzzle brake. I shot a total of 15 rounds of the load already mentioned.
There were no bits of lube on my glasses lenses this time. I did think I felt some light spray on my cheek (left) but nothing distracting.
So until I can get out on a warmer day to do this again I'm going to venture an educated guess that I might actually be onto something.
There was no perceptible difference in recoil. I will have to shoot my friends gun along side this one with the same load to see if there's any real difference.
Still there was some small amount of lead stuck to the flat surfaces of the brake slots facing the shooter.
It is very possible adding some tin or antimony to our ww lead might be called for. But we need bullets that will not break up on tough muscle tissue and bone such as in the case for Brown bear which is the primary reason we carry these things.
Anyone wishing to know how I did the modification is welcome to email me. But if I were you I would wait until I can get out and maybe shoot 30 or more rounds to be certain I'm actually on to a viable fix.
Hope this helps somebody -

[John Ross]

Taking the comp off will de-tension the barrel and not secure the shroud. You can cut it off even with the back of the rear ports if you want to get rid of it.

JR

[Ron60]

The only reason I wish to remove it is to see if I could single point the threads on a brake I fabricat myself with a different pattern of gas ports.
Then there would be the torque to get right. I'm not sure I would want to get rid of it as the recoil is not far from being to much to control in a tight situation.
I think from this point I'm going to order some tin/antimony and harden up my ww lead a little and see what happens.
I'm pleased with the results so far.