why paperpatch?

[badbob454]

is it just a black powder thing or what ? ...i know in the old days the big bores were paperpatched .. i have used a t shirt cotton for my blackpowder smokepole .....but what about smokeless i heard today of someone wanting to p/p a .223? is there a benefit to this? im lost .:groner:

[DIRT Farmer]

Some rifles are designed for paper patch, Some will only shoot cast if paper patch (my Savage 2 grouve 303 ) more speed with cast, and some paper patch just because they can. There is a satifaction in doing things "my way". I like to experiment with my shooting. One rifle, 03-A3, I have shot for more than 40 years with the best load I have found, load the Lyman 311-291, cast from large batch smelts of WW, sized to .312 lubed with Javelina with Hornady gas checks over 13 grns of Green Dot and WW LRP In sorted military brass neck sized, leave a slight flair on the neck, anealed each time. That does not mean I have quit looking for a better load.

[montana_charlie]

is it just a black powder thing or what ?
The root purpose is to prevent leading of the bore.
On this forum, yes...it is a black powder thing because patching with BP works a little differently than using smokeless.

There is a forum for patching with smokeless.

CM

[Gunlaker]

Because we can :-)

And paper patching gets rid of those ugly grease grooves that have just got to be less ballistically efficient. And the long range target guys used to do it. And it's a lot of fun. And there are many interesting things to learn.

Chris.

[1874Sharps]

Paper patch bullets -- they are the bullets that conjure images of buffalo hunters of the 1870s “rolling their own” in camp after a day of shooting. This technology is described in patents as early as 1870 and is still a great technology. In fact, all the major armies of the world of that era with the exception of the US used paper patch bullets in their ammunition. The Sharps Rifle Co. back in the day sold mostly paper patch ammo. There was good reason for this wide-spread use.
Paper patch bullets offer several advantages over comparable conventional grease groove bullets:
1. Paper patch bullets have smooth sides and therefore have a higher ballistic coefficient.
2. Paper patch bullets generally produce lower chamber pressures than grease grooved bullets of equal weight.
3. The paper patch polishes and burnishes the bore of the rifle removing tool marks and making clean-up (especially when shooting with black powder) much easier.
4. Bullets may be rolled with thinner or thicker paper, thus allowing the hand loader to custom fit the bullet to a non-standard bore, as is often found in antique rifles such as the 1873 Springfield.

I wrote this up a couple of years ago for an ad on ebay when I was selling BPCR PP molds. The same principles apply to high power smokeless cartridge rifle, too.

[rollmyown]

Apart from the time and effort required, are there any disadvantages to paper patching?
(as of now, I've never PP'd in my life)

Also I havn't noticed too many dedicated smooth sided PP boolits. How necessary is it to use a purpose designed PP boolit when paper patching?

[RMulhern]

rollmyown

It would probably work a whole lot better for you....if you'd zip over to the other forum!!

[Don McDowell]

Also I havn't noticed too many dedicated smooth sided PP boolits. How necessary is it to use a purpose designed PP boolit when paper patching?

:???: you're jokin right?
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,398.html
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,398.html
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,400.html

[montana_charlie]

Also I havn't noticed too many dedicated smooth sided PP boolits. How necessary is it to use a purpose designed PP boolit when paper patching?
If you spend a lot of time in a pine forest, you won't see many oak trees...but you know they're out there, somewhere.

Looking back at a few pages of your previous posts, it's obvious you don't spend time with cartridges that would likely use smooth-sided bullets.
As RMulhern intimated, the smokeless guys are very much into sizing down grooved bullets in order to make room for a paper wrap. They probably speak a dialect that you wouldn't need to have translated.

But, the PP designs are out there if you want to look for them. The NEI catalog has smooth-cavity moulds salted all through the book, the BPCR suppliers offer quite a variety, and Red River Rick can cut you a pretty one.

CM

[badbob454]

Thanks guys i asked the right crowd , learned a lot today ..i too can see why this would be fun ,,,, catboat why can you load this faster than a gas check bullet , isnt it the deformation and the gas cutting past the bullet that is the limiting factor ,? , i can see a hard bullet slows down compressing in the barrel ... but a paper patch on a soft lead bullet one would expect gas cutting pushing past a soft lead bullet on hi velocity loads ...? is my thinking incorrect

[Lead pot]

catboat.
I dont know how you ever came up with those conclusions.
Makes me wonder if you ever shot a PP or GG bullet using blk powder.

[Lead pot]

"Can a gas-checked, dead-soft lubed bullet be driven with good accuracy at 2200+ fps with blackpowder? I've never tried it."

No, I cant get those velocity's with the bullets I shoot using blk. powder.

[RMulhern]

Soft lead paper patched bullets at high velocities? What's that 'soft lead' alloy you're speaking to??.....maybe 1-60 or what??

Hmmmm....damn glad to know that there's no such thing as NOSE SLUMP!! Leadpot has posted photos of a few of those so....I guess he's got one of those radar-controlled barrels' what always directs the bullet to the exact center of the target!!

Glory be!!

[Lead pot]

:confused:Hmmmm, wonder what caused all of these malfunctions with tight fitting PP bullets:confused:


http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0293.jpg

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0324.jpg

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0841.jpg

:popcorn:

[bigted]

i have never paper patched either but as usual there is a mojority of people here that are willing to share their experiences and let-downs as well as some things to try. and also as per usual there are those cats here that never give any solid advise on a subject..rather they want to downgrade and try to make themselves bigger at the expense of someone else.

im glad there is more posts that handle the first-timer and his/her first questions/experiences. there are tons of explanations on this forum and if willing to go back into the past posts i will find the info i need/want to eventually try this "other" area of reloading

to those that want to puff themselves up at the expense of others i only say this.......if it aint instructional or encouraging then....please be quiet !

[Don McDowell]

:kidding: Leapot mustabeen a combo of that teflon tape and surplus smokeless powder you was usin...:lol:

[RMulhern]

Kurt

That 'micro-groove rifling' on that middle bullet looks great!!

LOL LOL!!

[Lead pot]

Big Ted.
No malaise intended here but some of the information given on these forums at times need a reply that will sink in.
When I see some guys telling how they will PP a groove diameter jacketed bullet that is way over sized or even a lead bullet and they use a duplex or God forbid a smokeless load is not the thing to tell a newbie what to do.
Some of the replies are obvious that they never patched a bullet and just repeat what ever they have read else where right or wrong.

[Gunlaker]

Big Ted.
No malaise intended here but some of the information given on these forums at times need a reply that will sink in.
When I see some guys telling how they will PP a groove diameter jacketed bullet that is way over sized or even a lead bullet and they use a duplex or God forbid a smokeless load is not the thing to tell a newbie what to do.
Some of the replies are obvious that they never patched a bullet and just repeat what ever they have read else where right or wrong.

That's for sure. I started PPing not that long ago. Paying close attention to what you, Don, Rick, and Kenny have posted sure made it easier to get started. No false starts and it probably saved me a lot of frustration.

If you pay attention to what these guys have learned, basically re-learning what was done in the old days, you'll get a great start.

The equipment needs are very minimal if you already load BP. Buy a decent mould, buy some quality onion skin and the other stuff you'll already have on hand.

Some might be discouraged by their first couple of attempts (when PP goes wrong it can really go wrong, i.e. torn patches, heavily leaded bores, crazy fliers). But once you get the basic idea it's pretty simple and easy to get them shooting well.

Chris.

[Flinchrock]

OK Men, what, just exactly IS going on in the pictures in post #17,,,???

[Kenny Wasserburger]

patch striped off and gas cutting.


KW
the Lunger

[Flinchrock]

patch striped off and gas cutting.


KW
the Lunger

And how does one avoid this phenomena?

[Don McDowell]

One of the better ways to keep that from happening is using hollow based bullets.
The one bullet shows a good bit of nose slump from to soft of an alloy.

[Flinchrock]

Tired,,,be back tomorrow,,,more questions,,,

[Lead pot]

No it didn't strip off the paper. If you enlarge the photo (hit ctrl+) you will see the paper grain and the 50 degree patch mating line on the center bullet and the grain on the one on the right.
The bullet was patched with .0016 thick paper and it was .002 under bore diameter. The bullets just didn't hold the grooves.

[Don McDowell]

What's the pedigree on those bullets. I like that nose design seems it would make a good target or hunting bullet.

[Lead pot]

Don.

Those three bullets are the once Jim from BA and I worked on when he first started making moulds.

[Don McDowell]

Thank you sir.
Did you ever get the bullet to shooting like you wanted?

[Lead pot]

Yes it shoots good. But like anything else one always looks for something better:smile: