I killed my carbine with cast loads

[cavalrymedic]

I also resurected it with my new welder, but that's another story.

I have a Universal M1 carbine (I know, not really military, but a pretty good copy) It's the third M1 that I've had the pleasure of owning in my 40 years. I was impressed with it in many respects but I was concerned about the cast aluminum trigger group. I shouldn't have been. The trigger group is easy to clean and has taken a beating. What didn't take the beating was my action slide. It fired factory ammo perfectly, cycled like it should and all, but I didn't buy this rifle to shoot any factory ammo. So I got a Lee C309-120R and cast up some pretty nice boolits. The action kept getting stuck when feeding the rounds. Sometimes it wouldn't feed all the way in and I couldn't just pull the little charging tab back and eject either. I was careful to not exceed minimum length, but I made sure that my rounds were just a smidge shorter than factory. I noticed when I did cycle a round through without firing, there was a circular impression on the tip of the boolit.

Anyway, when it jammed up really badly, I tried a trick that my police instructor showed me for freeing up a jammed M4 carbine. I "gently" hit the butt of the weapon on the ground while pulling back hard on the charging handle. Bad bad bad. The slide broke. I guess Universal skimmped on the metal for the slide.

My question is:
Could it be that the C309-120R, even though seated so that the OAL is shorter than factory ammo, still not fit all the way into the chamber of this particular gun?

I've beat my head over this, :veryconfu, I thought maybe I wasn't resizing right but I compared using my digital caliper and after sizing and a Lee factory crimp, the case diameter is the same (well, really really close) as factory. Ideas?

I am considering using a different mold, Lee doesn't have much in 30 cal RN <120 grains, so if you guys have any good suggestions, I'm all ears.

[Bloodman14]

Circular impression on tip of boolit? Need pics, but I'm wondering if the 120 gr boolit has a different enough shape that it is impacting the throat/leade.

[HighHook]

Make sure you trim your cases.

By the way mine broke last week also. Bad design.:(

[Bret4207]

A caliper probably won't show the diff in .0005 in the nose section. If you had an interference fit, that was your problem. Same with the case dimensions.

[oksmle]

Had the same problem with my Universal many years ago. Changed to the Lyman #311359 (which is a pointed boolit) & the problem was cured. Cast from WW the #311359 cast at about 126/130 grains & in my carbine will function the action from about 1600 fps to almost 2000 fps. This is the firearm that both my kids learned to shoot with & they fired many thousands of rounds through it. If you have that mold try it out. If not I may have a few left & you're welcome to them. Just let me know.

[Multigunner]

Theres an uneven lump on the right hand lug recess of later model M1 Carbine receivers. The purpose of this is to reduce probability of the bolt unlocking if the carbine is dropped butt down or a soldier with slung carbine leaps from a truck or helicopter and lands hard enough for enertia to send the slide back.
In extreme cases a bolt could retract far enough to chamber a round but not far enough to allow the sear to catch the hammer, resulting in an AD. Much the same situation as the early MP 38/40 before the safety notch was deepened, and the PPSH before they added a bolt handle latch.

I was asked to find out why a carbine would jam so tight the slide had to be hammered back with a boot heel to open it. I found that the ammo being used had one out of every six cases aprox .006 over the OAL of the rest of the rounds in those boxes. This was a clue since one out of every six rounds fired jammed the action tight.
After spotting the lump right in the center of the right lug recess I used a small white arkansas stone to polish it down. After that this carbine operated perfectly.

In film clips of carbine production you'll see the finished carbine clamped in a stand and dry cycled vigorously. I suspect this was to break in the action, perhaps by lapping, though the clip doesn't show lapping compound being applied.
Its unlikely that mass produced carbine clones received this level of hands on treatment. A step that would raise production cost might be deleted by bean counters.

Anyway if a carbine jams the right hand lug recess is the first place I'd look.

[cavalrymedic]

oksmle....thanks for the offer. If you have a few I would love to try them. PM sent

brett, what is an interference fit?

Multi, I will vigorously inspect for the right hand lug recess lump.

Thanks all for chiming in. I really love shooting carbines, and combining casting with my all time favorite plinker should be perfect, if I can just get it right.

[zomby woof]

Your OAL is too long. I seat to 1.610" with that LEE boolit.
What are you sizing the boolit to?

[cavalrymedic]

I swage to 308 and add a gas check. I think in the future i will leave it at 309. 1.610" I will give that a try, thanks for the tip.

[zuke]

Could the circular impression be from the inside of the seating stem?

[legend]

Zuke might be right,mine had the same(i think) circle on the nose.

anyone quess what they are worth?

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I bought a Universal about a year ago for $230. In very good condition with several mags.
There are normally several for sale on GB which will let you see what people are paying today.

[cavalrymedic]

thanks to everyone for your tips. I'm gonna try those Lyman 311359, and I'm going to shorten my OAL and see if that helps with the Lee RNs.

I still can't figure out what a right hand lug recess is, but I'm working on it.

[oksmle]

The shed where I store my boolits is blocked by a 5' snowdrift at present. The really sad part is that my snow shovel is in there too. Anyway, the mail hasn't run since last Tuesday & isn't supposed to again tomorrow. What all this amounts to is I'll save your address & let you know when I get them shipped so you'll expect them.

[quasi]

The shed where I store my boolits is blocked by a 5' snowdrift at present. The really sad part is that my snow shovel is in there too.

R.O.T.F.L.M.A.O.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moonie]

yup, no doubt, that's planning ahead...

Sorry to make light of your issue, but that's funny, something I would do.

[oksmle]

Hey .... This is Oklahoma. It ain't supposed to happen this way. We get ice or snow & two days later it's all melted away. But not this time....

[bohica2xo]

Ammo that won't chamber easily in an M1 Carbine is a bad thing.

That chamber has a constant taper, and the usual cause of your issues is a case that is too large - either improperly resized, or too large at the mouth...

If you use a micrometer to measure the case mouth on a loaded round, and compare it to the factory ammo you will probably see the cause of your troubles.

Making the bullets even larger will just make things worse. Because of the chamber taper, even a little force on an oversize cartridge wedges things up tight.

I have always shot the 358252 in the 30 carbine. In one IBM mfg carbine, I had to size to .307 to get reliable ammo.

B.

[22Short]

Gentlemen, that's not really an M-1 Carbine. The original was hastily designed and put into service without a good magazine design and suffered from it, but the Universal suffers more. Granted, it looks like a Carbine but the parts are not interchangeable. The two weakest points on a Universal seem to be the slide and the gas piston area. Often where the gas piston contacts the slide it will beat the slide like it is butter. The slide is a cheap stamping, not hardened. A real carbine has a forging. Hardened and heat treated. Please, save up and get the real deal. They made 6 1/2 million of them, they have history and they are fun to shoot. But the "Universal Carbine" is no M-1 Carbine.

[Ben]

bohica2xo :

In your thread above, you say :

I have always shot the 358252 in the 30 carbine

How do you go about shooting a .358 bullet in a .30 cal. cartridge ?

[Linstrum]

I don't know how many of those 6.5 million M1 carbines still remain in the US. I doubt that very many of them are still here at all because in the 1950s and 1960s Mexico bought a WHOLE bunch from us for their army, so I'm guessing half a million to a million disappeared that way, then another whole bunch were given to South Korea and South Vietnam because their small-statured soldiers couldn't handle the M14. Then "Cap'n Crunch" got ahold of a whole bunch more and cut up the receivers to get rid of them to keep them out of civilian hands after 1968. Fortunately Cap'n Crunch has been put out of business of destroying our WW2 era guns for the moment, although a whole bunch of Garands also disappeared that way before it got stopped (thank goodness!!!).

rl931

[bohica2xo]

Ben:

Sorry for the typo. 308252 is the block:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_f9mZJsRJS54/TU2GHCx9hZI/AAAAAAAAASw/wLdNPBWpsGs/s640/308252blocks.jpg

B.

[Ben]

Ok, that's a real light weight bullet isn't it ( 75 grs. or so ) ?

Thanks,
Ben

[bohica2xo]

Well, it is "light" - but not 77gr. In straight linotype it drops 91 grains.

That mould was for the 30 Mauser when it was made. A good RN for autoloader feeding, and short enough to avoid the case bulge from seating a heavy bullet too deep in a 30 carbine case.

The 77 grain was a 308240 I think. For the 32acp Been years since I had one of those, sold it with the Walther PP about 3 decades ago.

B.

[9.3X62AL]

I have a fairly recent ideation of the mould under discussion, the #311252. Mine casts @ .312" and at 78 grains in 92/6/2 alloy. I believe Lyman still lists this item in their 2011 catalog.

I use it in 32 ACP (so far). Shoots great in my Walther PP.

[3006guns]

No, you didn't break your carbine with your loads....

Only one poster has addressed the issue of the broken/cracked slides on these guns. As he stated, the Universal (and the Plainfield) are COPIES of the original carbine, manufactured when a market for them was perceived. I believe the first guns were made up using some G.I. parts, but when those dried up it was die casting time and the overall quality suffered. Unfortunately, this was rampant in the gun market back in the 60's. Another jewel that comes to mind was a .22 Luger copy made by Erma....a poorly engineered copy that made a better club than a firearm. The manufacturers finally learned that the shooting public is not going to pay for junk and that word gets around fast.

The Universal is renowned for breaking its slide from repeated pounding and no new ones are available, so it's either weld it or junk it. I have a Universal, given to me by a friend and although it shoots it suffers from repeated failures to feed, etc. I've tried different magazines and some work moderately better than others, but overall the gun is a poor imitation of the real thing....not something I'd depend on for survival unless it was the only gun available.

Looks nice though.............:???:

[cavalrymedic]

22short, you are right on about the slide being the weakest part of the Universal. That's where I split it when the round got stuck. I had to use my new mig welder to put the slide back together. As for saving my money and getting the real deal, well, as I indicated above, this is my third carbine. I had two USGI carbines, one that I inherited from my father, and one I bought from a neighbor many years back. They were a great deal of fun to shoot, and what I was hoping for when I bought the Universal. I bought it sight unseen, not knowing that there were such things as comercially made M1s.

No, I didn't sell the first two carbines. Someone I hope to one day meet broke into my house 10 years ago and took every one of my guns. two 1903A3s, a Garand, an Eddystone, and my Mauser. Only now have I started to rebuild my collection.

[Linstrum]

When they die, I hope there is a special place for those who enter folk's homes and steal one's important possessions, especially when they use the 5 cents on the dollar they get for what they steal and shove it up their noses!


rl938

[9.3X62AL]

When they die, I hope there is a special place for those who enter folk's homes and steal one's important possessions, especially when they use the 5 cents on the dollar they get for what they steal and shove it up their noses!

While I abhor Communism in any form, one can only respect what the Maoists did to their opium addicts when the ChiComs took over. Of course, lawyers find little work when their regular customers get whacked by the Powers That Be. Talk about a win/win......

But I digress, as usual. I think my next "M1 Carbine" will be a Ruger Blackhawk.

[cavalrymedic]

I want to collect as many firearms that use M1 Carbine ammo as I can. I REALLY want the AMT AutoMag III, and a Ruger Blackhawk. Know of any others?

[badbob454]

bohica2xo :

In your thread above, you say :

I have always shot the 358252 in the 30 carbine

How do you go about shooting a .358 bullet in a .30 cal. cartridge ?

he said he sized it to 307" [smilie=s:

[jonk]

With all due respect, you don't know the first thing about reloading. If you did, you would know that OAL is dependent on the throat of a particular gun and the profile of a particular bullet, and that the info published in manuals is intended as guidelines that will work in 99% of guns. As the Lee bullet has no data in mauals, you substituted without verifying, and paid the price by breaking a nice gun.

As SOON as you found out that the slide wasn't closing properly you should have stopped and determined the cause. The M1 Carbine has a floating firing pin that I have seen dimple primers on rounds that failed to chamber properly. This invites an out of battery detonation that could have done a lot more damage than you did by banging the thing on the ground.

As a piece of advice, create a dummy pilot round for each gun/bullet combo you load for- no powder or primer, just brass and boolit. Seat the projectile out 'long' and gently try to chamber it. No go, seat a little deeper, try to chamber. Keep at it until it chambers with no resistance. Then use that pilot to set up your dies whenever you change bullets for that gun. While this procedure isn't critical for bolt actions where if something doesn't fit you can just stop, with autoloaders that violently slam the round into the chamber, it is crucial to avoid slam fires including those out of battery and rounds jammed in the chamber.

The Lee mold in particular (which is all I shoot in my carbine BTW) has a very abrupt, blunt nose to it and overall is longer than the standard 110gr FMJ. This will require both deeper seating and lower powder charges than the standard FMJ load, and a resultant shorter OAL. What OAL is suitable for your gun I can't say; proceed as I suggested above.

[cavalrymedic]

Thanx for the good advice jonk. Making a dummy round, I never thought of that, but it makes great sense, and I can alter the seating depth till it fits.

I admit to being a sophmore at this. I reloaded as a kid, unsupervised, with only my dad's gear and a lyman manual. Then I stopped for 20 years and only got back into it a year ago. So, I don't pretend to be even close to an expert, more of an enthusiastic idiot. That's why I'm on here, to learn from you guys.

Thanks again for the tips.

[John Traveler]

Cavalrymedic,

Marlin used to make the Model 62 lever action carbine in .30 US Carbine chambering. It was a nifty piece in a fun caliber!

[jonk]

In reviewing my last post, I may have been a bit abrasive, and if so, I apologize for that... long day that day. Still, my suggestion stands, hope it helps. :)

[Linstrum]

- - - - of course, lawyers find little work when their regular customers get whacked by the Powers That Be. Talk about a win/win......



Now when was the last time we heard of a "win/win" situation when both lawyers and druggies were involved? HA! That's nice to hear that the potential exists!

rl946