45ACP Revolver Bullet Recommendations?

[gcf]

Gents -

I have recently acquired a S&W 625-8 / 4" full underlug BBL / 45acp. Frame lock aside, a pretty nice revolver. Cylinder throats are a consistent .452". B/C gap is 0.005", cylinder / bore alignment appears good, & headspace is 0.006" w/ brass in full moon clips.

Although I've not slugged the bore, there does not appear to any type of bore constriction at the threads.

Shoots factory 230 jacketed ball quite nicely, but I bought it to shoot cast - as a high volume, steel match gun.

Problem here is leading w/ commercial cast, bevel base cast bullets. Not really a big surprise, as I've never had much luck w/ BB bullets in revolvers. They usually lead badly - regardless of cylinder throat fitment.

230TC-BB /.452" / 12BHN (TiteGroup 3.8 grains), lead the forcing cone, & 1st inch of bore. 200SWC-BB / .452" / 15BHN (TiteGroup 4.5 grains) leads the cylinder throats, forcing cone, & the half of the bore.

The good news here is, it appears to shoot plain base boolits very well - w/ no noticable leading.

On a hunch, I loaded up some nice LSWC's originally obtained from The BullShop for .45 Colt use: 255SWC-PB / .452" / 10BHN (Lee mould #90356 I think), over 6.0 & 6.5 grains PowerPistol.

Clean bore & throats - w/ ragged hole groups & no indication of excess pressure. This would probably make a great CB field load, w/ a little tweaking - but a little heavy for my intended application.

Sooo, what do you guys think?? It looks like a somewhat lighter (200 - 230 grn ?), 10 - 15BHN, plain base LSWC would be ideal for this revolver. Would I be better off ordering a few different types of PB bullets, or tweaking my existing 255 grain load down a bit?

Or better yet, can anyone recommend a LSWC-PB, or for that matter, a RFN-PB that works well for them in a .45acp revolver?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

[9.3X62AL]

Lyman #452423 suggests itself here. Keith-designed for the 45 ACP/AR revolvers, nominal weight was ~238 grains. If I had a 45 ACP rollerpistol, one of these would be my first stop. There has been at least one group buy of a remake of this pattern here at Cast Boolits.

Bevel-based boolits are like taper crimp dies--in the context of cast boolit shooting, an invention of the devil.

[Bass Ackward]

Or better yet, can anyone recommend a LSWC-PB, or for that matter, a RFN-PB that works well for them in a .45acp revolver?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!


I haven't found a design that hasn't been able to be made to shoot well. So if this is a volume operation, LEE has a 200 gr and a 230 Trune in 6 cavities that I use in mass. The 200 requires a fairly good lube for me cause it doesn't carry much, but that is an easy adjust.

Both of these will work with the same 6.5 gr PP although the 200 will react better if you push it some in a 4". I use 7 gr of Unique. Just depends how far you want that blunt thing to reach really.

If you want a paper design, the H&G 68 has decades of history behind it.

[KYCaster]

Bevel-based boolits are like taper crimp dies--in the context of cast boolit shooting, an invention of the devil.


Al, I use both extensively, without issue.

I guess the devil makes me do it! :bigsmyl2:


Jerry

[imashooter2]

For steel wouldn't you want a round nose that you could reload in a hurry in case of disaster?

[BSkerj]

Looks like a active buy just ended for the Miha 200 grn Cramer. This is without a doubt one of the best bullets I have used in my 625. Miha usually makes some extras or maybe you can contact the Honcho and he can get you in . Also Miha has a store on his website that may have some 2 cavities available. The price is a little spendy but well worth it. Some good pictures posted on the Group Buy forum. You really get 3 molds in one. I can send you some if you want to try them...PM me and I will get some out.

[35remington]

Usually, it's NO soft, heavy bullets. Such is usually asking for problems.

The 45 ACP is a revolver "writ large", so to speak. The enormous jump the bullet must make from cylinder to forcing cone is longer than many others, and a heavy bullet has a good head of steam when it crashes into the very shallow rifling. Maybe a gain twist would be ideal, but we don't have that.

So the bullet wants to skid like mad rather than grip the rifling. I can show you recovered bullets wherein the rifling marks are completely absent as the entire bearing surface has been rubbed away to bore diameter and the bullet never got a real purchase on the barrel. Or so it seems. When I obtained the good groups with heavy bullets the gun is supposedly known for the recovered bullets show just why that is so.

So the heavy bullet (245-255 grain) should be hard. Especially if run to the 950 odd fps possible with the revolver.

If the bullet isn't going very fast, or has a decent lube, a lead free barrel can result yet the bullet is still skidding but to a reduced degree.

If you can get good accuracy and no leading with a very soft BHN bullet, please examine a recovered bullet sometime.....your claim of good results with a soft bullet at higher velocities (6.5 PP should get 900 plus fps with the 255 Lee) are not consonant with my experience, and maybe something is different I don't know about. Perhaps the rifling grip with your gun is somehow adequate enough to allow for such things, but I can't get away with using soft heavy bullets.

Lighter bullets have less inertia, and recovered 185 button nose SWC's show little skidding even if cast of straight wheelweights. Same with 200 SWC's that have a decent front band like the HG 68 clones do. However, try to shoot the wheelweight HG 68 at the higher velocities possible from a 625 and skidding problems will show up as well........1100 fps with straight wheelweights has accuracy go south on me in a hurry, and the recovered bullets show why. More standard velocities, no problem.

Commercial cast 200's are fine because they are hard, but could use a better lube for a revolver. They are good to go in automatics, usually, but revolvers demand something better than the lubes on commercial cast bullets.....and in fairness, they were lubed with such a concoction as they were intended for moderate velocities in automatics in the first place (that, and the lube doesn't fall off in shipping).

If you are just shooting steel falldown plates, a 185 to 200 grain bullet ought to be plenty. Fewer inertial related issues to boot. Big front bands are ducky.

BTW, recover a jacketed 230 sometime....they show skidding too, even though they shoot well. So with a heavy bullet it's probably impossible to completely avoid, but a reasonable amount is no detriment to accuracy.

It's when it gets excessive that problems occur.

One other comment; the Lee bullet (listed as 252 rather than 255 grains) seats really deeply in the case when the case mouth is crimped in the crimping groove or seated to that depth in ACP cases. Reduce charges others use with 255's to allow for this. It's fine when this deep seating is allowed for, but probably runs pressures notably higher than a 452424 or a 452423 at similar velocities.

[OBXPilgrim]

The very best shooting load I've gotten out of a 625 has been using the Lee 255gr RF PB. For my mold, it drops 240-245gr. And the lighter (240gr) was a screw-up on my part - I got too much lino from mystery metal in the mix. It grew - harder and larger in diameter after a month or two and after it was already loaded into 45 ACP ammo. It wouldn't chamber in a 1911 & I had to shoot them in the 625, which it would chamber into.

They shot better than anything else I've shot in it. They were nowhere as hot as 35 Rem mentions above as a hard bullet can be pushed.

And I agree totally with him about the skidding. I used to constantly get leading - but just up to the first inch from the forcing cone. But not with those.

The Lee 255gr - at least my mold, doesn't look much like the photos I've seen. Most of the photos almost make it look like the 255gr has a wider meplat than the 200gr RF. Not so with mine, it has much more "R" (round) than "F" (flat).

Hope that helps.

[crawfobj]

Off topic, but couldn't resist -

Pilgrim,

That's a nice Red you have there. Caught more than my fair share of bulls like that down in Port O'Connor, TX over the years.

[Blammer]

try a light wt like this :)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN7163.jpg

[gcf]

Usually, it's NO soft, heavy bullets. Such is usually asking for problems.

The 45 ACP is a revolver "writ large", so to speak. The enormous jump the bullet must make from cylinder to forcing cone is longer than many others, and a heavy bullet has a good head of steam when it crashes into the very shallow rifling. Maybe a gain twist would be ideal, but we don't have that.

So the bullet wants to skid like mad rather than grip the rifling. I can show you recovered bullets wherein the rifling marks are completely absent as the entire bearing surface has been rubbed away to bore diameter and the bullet never got a real purchase on the barrel. Or so it seems. When I obtained the good groups with heavy bullets the gun is supposedly known for the recovered bullets show just why that is so.

So the heavy bullet (245-255 grain) should be hard. Especially if run to the 950 odd fps possible with the revolver.

If the bullet isn't going very fast, or has a decent lube, a lead free barrel can result yet the bullet is still skidding but to a reduced degree.

If you can get good accuracy and no leading with a very soft BHN bullet, please examine a recovered bullet sometime.....your claim of good results with a soft bullet at higher velocities (6.5 PP should get 900 plus fps with the 255 Lee) are not consonant with my experience, and maybe something is different I don't know about. Perhaps the rifling grip with your gun is somehow adequate enough to allow for such things, but I can't get away with using soft heavy bullets.



35 Rem -
Thanks for sharing your observations. The hard alloy vs soft alloy is a hot topic for sure. Most of the 45 cal bullets (45 colt & acp) that I shoot, are in the 10 - 12 BHN range. If you are correct - & I feel it is entirely possible that you are, then I now have an explanation for the "occasional" flier from the group, that was fired with no "pulled" shots. ;=]

For the record, & in all seriousness, what BHN would you consider optimum, for heavy 45 acp revolver bullets?

Generally speaking, there are a lot of things that effect potential accuracy of a "soft" alloy bullet load. One thing I noticed a few years back, is the burn rate of the powder - or more specifically, slower powder seems to work better w/ soft / heavy / straight wall cartridge bullets. Figure it's a pressure push vs bump thing. Just a little food for thought.

[Artful]

Well, I have several 45 ACP guns, some revolvers (S&W, Ruger) and mine did fine with 45-255KT RCBS and 452450 200 SWC Lyman, and NEI TC 230 grain.

I'm waiting for my pointy 45's to try them
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=98344
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/1111-111-ALLSIZESSP.jpg

[Lloyd Smale]

Niether of the 25s i have will shoot lighter bullets well. Both do much better with bullets around 250 grain. Problem with that is id really like to shoot 230 round nosed bullets as they drop in with clips much better. Ive tried about everything with the lighter bullets and 2 inch groups at 25 is about all they will do. One thing about mine is it does do much better with harder alloys and sized to 454. With alloys softer then ww or with 452 bullets they shoot shotgun patterns.

[MGySgt]

I shoot the RCBS 45-230 CM out of my 625 5 in bull barrel - Very little leading and sub 2 at 25. not bad for me and my old eyes.

I do shoot a 10X10 Steel plate at 75yard with them and ring it consitently. They work well for fast reloads in a full moon.

I push them with Unique - don't remember the load and all my stuff is packed up as I am in the process of moving.

[Thumbcocker]

The very best my model of 1989 shoots is with the lyman 452460 200 grn swc over 6.0 of 231. This is a max load in the lyman manual and is also an accuracy load. Boolit diamater is .453. I have never had the chance to shoot keith boolits in this gun but hope to do that soon.

[Dale53]

My two 625's are my most shot revolvers (5000-7500 rounds per year). I mostly shoot the H&G #68 clone from a MiHec mould. These will shoot well under one inch at 25 yards from a rest. On one of my better days, last fall, this resulted from standing at 25 yards:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img095.jpg

This is not a once in a lifetime target nor is it something I can do every time I shoot. However, these revolvers seem to give me more of these kinds of targets than anything else I use.

My cast bullets for these revolvers are cast of WW's+2% tin and sized to .452". My cylinder throats will just admit these bullets (the throats are just large enough to admit them). Both of my revolvers seem equally accurate and I can get similar results from the orignal H&G #130 (stubby 195 gr SWC), the Saeco #68 200 gr SWC, and the NOE moulded bullet for a clone of the Lyman 454424 bullet (250 gr Keith). I drive the Keith at 900+ fps. I also shoot the Lee TC (truncated cone) 230 gr bullet from a six cavity aluminum mould. This bullet does not shoot quite as well as the others. It gives me 1 1/4" groups at 25 yards. However, I get exceptionally quick reloads with full moon clips and the flat nose guarantees much better terminal performance than the round nose bullet.

Here is the NOE bullet loaded in Starline Auto Rim brass:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3336.jpg

A bullet that I neglected to mention is the Mihec 200 gr Hollow Point (a clone of the Lyman 452374 round nose bullet but hollow pointed). This bullet is also a speedy loader and will expand to nearly .80 caliber when properly alloyed:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3332.jpg

NOTE: In this particular case is loaded in Starline Auto Rim cases. When needing a quick reload, I load these in .45 ACP cases and use with Ranch Products Steel full moon clips.

Dale53

[BLTsandwedge]

Lyman's 452630 over 4.1g Clays will produce accuracy ala Dale 53 with not a hint of leading. This recipe produces an average of 873fps (5" BBL, S&W 625- 1988) and a standard deviation of 13.07. Another that I've been very pleased with is Lyman's 452389- a 185g button-nose wadcutter, no longer manufactured. I was lucky to come across two- four cavity moulds of this design. They shoot as well as the 452630 and are likewise leading-free. For the 452389 I used 8.5g AA#5 and found an average 1,094fps with a standard deviation of 13.11. BhN on both the 452630 and 452389 are roughly 15 to 17 using Lee's proctology scope (hence the 'about.' I can't read the flippin' thing very well). The 625 is my 'most oft' shooter as well but I'm lucky if that means 4,000 per year.

[Gunsmoke4570]

I have used Magma Eng 45-200-RN-BB bullets for years in my 625 Model of 1988 (Very early). I have had excellent results with Bullseye and HP38 with minimal to no leading sized at .452". My standard load is 4.6gr of BE and has shown plenty enough for steel plates and IPSC poppers. This load and bullet also work well in my Kimber Custom II.

[376Steyr]

Try using 45 AR brass for your initial experiments for accuracy. My experience is that ACP cases in moonclips can have alignment issues, which is just another variable to mess things up. In my 6" M-25 1955 Target with .455 throats, using 5.8 grs of W-231 and AR cases, a hard commercial cast H&G 68 clone is quite accurate, while soft swaged equivalents make patterns, not groups. And both loads lead more than I'd like, so I'm still searching for the perfect load too.

[Freischütz]

You can't go wrong with 452423.

[Bret4207]

My 452423 is undersized, so were 2 others I've had. However, I have 2 6 cavity 45BD moulds from the original run. Outstanding design and they shoot very nicely in my Smith '17 and Ruger BH.

[Bass Ackward]

This is not a once in a lifetime target nor is it something I can do every time I shoot. However, these revolvers seem to give me more of these kinds of targets than anything else I use.


Ding!

And they point naturally for me if I ain't got time to use the sights. In other words, a handgun that actually works like a handgun.

[Lloyd Smale]

got to agree there. Nothing feels as good in my hands as a 4 inch n frame.
Ding!

And they point naturally for me if I ain't got time to use the sights. In other words, a handgun that actually works like a handgun.

[gcf]

I have used Magma Eng 45-200-RN-BB bullets for years in my 625 Model of 1988 (Very early). I have had excellent results with Bullseye and HP38 with minimal to no leading sized at .452". My standard load is 4.6gr of BE and has shown plenty enough for steel plates and IPSC poppers. This load and bullet also work well in my Kimber Custom II.

Interesting. Having recently acquired the 625-8 in question here, & this being the first S&W revolver I have loaded for in this particular chambering, most of the loads tried to date have been what has worked well for me - as TARGET LOADS in my 1911's. Mostly, they are commercial (Penn & Dardas) bevel base 200's & 230's loaded pretty light (TiteGroup 4.5 & 3.8 grains respectively).

I've never worked w/ BE at all, but looking at my Lee 2nd, I notice that they suggest 4.0 - 4.0 grns of BE, & 4.8 - 5.4 grns of TiteGroup, for 200 grain lead bullets.

Your standard (bevel base bullet) load of 4.6 grns BE is above book recommendation, but has been carefully (I'm sure) worked up, & functions well in BOTH your auto & revolver.

I'm a little slow, but it's beginning to occur to me that I may be loading a little light for optimum performance w/ these bullets - in my revolver, primarily because that load level works well in my 1911's.

Maybe I'd get better overall revolver performance - w/ less leading, by bumping my 200lswc / 4.5 Titegroup load up, to say... 5.0 - 5.5. Does that sound reasonable?

Out of curiousity, are the Magma Eng 45-200-RN-BB bullets you refer to, cast by you personally or purchased from a commercial caster? Any idea of the alloy / hardness, & lube?

[MGySgt]

FWIW - I have found that the 625-X will take a heavier load than a auto.

What I load for in my 625-5 I do not shoot in any of my autos. I feel the chamber pressure is too much.

Brian Pierce did an articale awhile ago about the different load levels for 45 colt and 45 ACP revolvers.

For the Smith the 45 ACP and 45 Colt were the same level loads, the Ruger BH was a higher chamber pressure.

Maybe someone saved that article and can post it or provide a link.

Just be careful of what you load and shoot. I keep my 45ACP for the revolver seperate. They actually have a crimp and will chamber too far to fire in an auto - I really like that!

Drew

[44man]

We just finished shooting my friends 625-B with the 255 gr Meister boolit and 5 gr of Unique. If you remember we were trying the SP primer and he bought cases.
We shot a lot and were even clanging the oxygen tank at 100, had many decent groups from the 1911 too with many having 3 shots in a ragged hole and a few a little out making 3/4" groups. Even in the 1911, groups were a tad smaller with the SP primer.
I then shot 3 of each primer at 25 and came up with this.

[Dale53]

My target loads for the 625's (by far the ones I shoot the most) are 4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent (I try to hit similar velocities with other fast burning powders). I have used 231, Clays, 5066 (obsolete), and PB with excellent results. Of course, I adjust the powder charge to arrive at the target velocity whichever powder I am currently using.

Right after I got my first 625 (625-8 JM Special with 4" barrel) I ran an experiment. I used two different bullets and three different powders for ten shots and they ALL went into the 10 ring on a 25 yard timed fire target. These revolvers (at least my two) are some of the most forgiving and easy to load for revolvers I own.

FWIW
Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

These revolvers (at least my two) are some of the most forgiving and easy to load for revolvers I own.

Darn you, Dale. I don't need to read things like this! :)

[Wally]

In my Ruger Blackhawk .45 ACP I use the Lee 200 RF bullet with Red Dot Powder ...works very well... In December I tried a Lyman 452389... 180 grain WC...it was superbly accurate but the mold is no longer made.

[35remington]

A general rule.....

The faster the bullet is going when it hits the ACP revolver's forcing cone, the more it overrides the rifling and makes the wide to doublewide rifling marks we see in recovered bullets that shoot well. Soft bullets have no rifling marks at all in the heavies as the whole surface is removed due to skidding. Such a bullet would drive a forensics investigator mad unless he had the gun to hand.

The heavier the bullet, the same.

The weaker the driving band width, the same.

I cannot say that shooting a bullet of any type slower will make it shoot best, as there is a range wherein the bullet will shoot just fine regardless of speed. But there is a point with every design, if weight does not become limiting, that accuracy is degraded if shot too fast in these shallow groove revolvers. I cannot say that is absolutely true of 255's as there are upper limits to pressure before that point is reached for some.

I also cannot say whether bumping a load up in speed will make it worse without knowing more particulars about the load, but if the bullet is soft and the driving bands weak, it will tend to be so.

I also cannot say at just what hardness of metal accuracy is improved, as I tend to shoot only two hardnesses; BHN 12 for ACWW's for the lighter bullets, and oven quenched at more like BHN 27. But I can tell you with the heavies it's better at 27 than 12, and the bullets clearly show it.

But trust me, even an accurately shooting 27 BHN 255 at 900-950 fps will not win any awards for clean and crisp rifling marks, no matter how well it shoots from an ACP/Auto Rim revolver. It still skids a bunch.

Rifling marks, at minimum, are doublewide. All the way to the base of the bullet. Which is why a good soft lube holds down leading and maintains accuracy longer with this type of gun.

[Mavrick]

Thanks, Artful, for the posting.
I, too am playing with steel, using a revolver. Mine's not an M625, tho', but the same main problem, is there. You need to get the moon-clips to feed as quickly as possible. Artful posted the drawings from a group-buy that is goin' on now.
I've been using a TC boolit to get the speed-loader in as quickly as possible. I'm in on the GB for the pointy-boolits, and I'm sure they'll work. The TC I'm using now was a BB when I bought it, but I had issues. I used a Dremel to fix the mold, and I've been putting as many as I can to the steel. If you don't want to try THAT, send your mold to one of the modifiers on the forum, I use Buckshot, and they'll take the BB out with precision.
If you'd like to get in on the GB, and use a heavy boolit, take the GC-step out and water-quench your WWs. They'll be hard enough to work at the velocity you need. (...I think, lol)
Otherwise, I would say try one of the TC molds in the 185-200gr range. I load mine down, not up, depending on what I'm trying to do. Plates aren't hard to driop, but poppers sometimes need to be struck with authority.
Have fun,
Gene

[Dale53]

Al;
Just to rattle your cage a bit (but NOTHING but the truth) I guarantee that you will LOVE a 625-6 or 625-8. I DO fancy the JM Special just a tiny bit more but BOTH of mine are absolutely superb!! I have some VERY nice revolvers in a variety of calibers to choose from but frankly, the .45 ACP 625's work SO-O-O well that I just naturally seem to reach for them more than all of the others. Mind you, on any given day I may reach for one of my .44 Specials or .45 Colt's (not to forget the .32's and .38/.357 Specials) but the .45 ACP works SO well for me that it has become my all time favorite.

When you can get the targets that I regularly see at my age (75) you just NATURALLY learn to quickly appreciate the all around balance of the .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim cartridges for target, field, and self defense.

I admit that all of my deer have been taken with the .44 Magnums I have but that is because I had them before my 625's. When I was but a lad, my father (who encouraged me in this madness) had an S&W Model 1950 Target and shortly thereafter the 1955 Target so I early on got to experience the value of a really good target revolver. I learned to shoot NRA Bullseye with revolvers ("mastering" the Timed and Rapid Fire stages) and later PPC with my Model 14 S&W Masterpiece with a self installed Bomar Rib (Master class) so I have a good back ground in excellent revolvers. When I lost the vision in my right eye, I had to quit National Level Competition with rifles. You might say with more than a little truth, that I found a great deal of support in dealing with my vision problems with my 625's. They "came along" at just the right time (I quickly learned to shoot right handed with my left eyes.

I know that one of your skill level will truly appreciate a good, late Model 625 (my choice would be the 625-8 but the 625-6 series Model of 1989 is just as good by any reasonable standard. Both of them (I have personally checked several samples of each) have proper cylinder throat dimensions and really work WITH you to shoot well.

Hey, pair them up with a good Mihec or NOE mould and you cannot go wrong:drinks:!!!

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

Yer killin' me here, Dale.

Just when I figure that a P-220R or the upgraded stainless Colt Commander are the greatest things since sliced bread.......this sort of thread/post/text appears. The JM just plain CALLS TO ME. No brass chasing, either--though I lean heavily toward Auto Rim cases over the clips-n-ACP mode.

Since you have thoroughly divided my attention here......have you ran any of the 45 Colt boolits like #454424 through the 625s? I was wondering how well the 250s would run at 850-900 FPS. Those velocities don't seem excessive in the platform, unless skidding takes place as some posters have indicated.

[44man]

My 452423 is undersized, so were 2 others I've had. However, I have 2 6 cavity 45BD moulds from the original run. Outstanding design and they shoot very nicely in my Smith '17 and Ruger BH.
Bret, you sound like the guy to ask. My friend just picked up the S&W 1917 in ACP. He is concerned about the pressure it can take. He is using 5 gr of Unique with a 255 gr boolit. How much Unique would you say is safe?

[Dale53]

Al;
I have the NOE clone of the Lyman 454424. I run 7.0 grs of Unique behind it in the 625's. This load is on the "not necessarily recommended" list, and I would NEVER run it in revolvers made before 1950 (the 1917's do not have heat treated cylinders and there have been reports of split cylinders - Skeeter Skelton, for one, reported this in his 1917. However, Skeeters was running loads in excess of my load. At any rate, 7.0 grs of Unique behind the NOE 454424 bullet (250 gr Keith) gives a chronographed velocity of 900+ fps. I feel comfortable with this load in my 625's. Further, I would go deer hunting with this load in a "New York Minute". This is at the level of power of the original black powder .45 Colt - the U.S. Army tests, prior to adopting it in 1873, required it to shoot through a horse at 100 yards. It will do likewise on deer, I am sure:mrgreen:. The wide meplat should make for excellent terminal performance, too:

Here is what it looks like in .45 Auto Rim Cases:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3336.jpg

By the way, Brian Pearce, in an excellent article on the .45 Auto Rim in the August-September issue of the Handloader even showed loads for the RCBS 45-270-SAA bullet (280 grs in his alloy) that gave him 897 fps. I have that bullet from a MiHec mould (for my .45 Colts) but consider that treading a bit "close to the line" due to the small case capacity of the .45 Auto Rim. As a further bit of information, Elmer Keith ran 7.5 grs of Unique behind the 454424 and it is published in the Original Lyman "Handbook of Cast Bullets" (the one that is Reader's Digest size with white plastic binding). The Pearce article is ten pages but I can send it to you by attachment if you are interested (I would need your Email address).

Dale53

[MtGun44]

My 1937 (S&W 1917 model made for Brazil) has large throats and would not shoot at all
accurately until I got up to .455 and pretty hot Unique loads. I stopped at 7.0
even though Keith recommended higher. He is known to have blown up more than a
few guns, but I did find that th best accy and closest to the POA was with 7.0 Unique
and 452423 at .455 diameter.

I have a new to me Colt 1917 that has similar throats, darn it. I will work up a load for
it following the same path when I can find the time.

Bill

[35remington]

For contrast, FWIW:

6.8 grains Unique, 452423 of 246 grains, 970 fps, five inch 625-3.

It will lengthwise a good size deer, results obtained from personal experience. I have a fondness for Unique in such a role, and Herco may be even a little bit better in equivalent speed loads due to a little more loading density.....but neither produces anything but small extreme spreads when charges are accurately metered or weighed.

Further, Unique shows less position sensitivity than Universal at equivalent velocities. Even in the stubby Auto Rim case.

[44man]

Thanks guys, sounds like he will be OK. Have to slug the gun when he comes out.

[9.3X62AL]

Dale--

Thanks for the kind offer, I have that issue of HL in the "stacks". THAT ARTICLE is what started all my cogitating concerning the "bottom-feeder vs. rollerpistol" question surrounding a pending 45 ACP purchase. Long, off-topic story--of about a year's duration.

In the distant past, I had a Model 1955 variant (25-2) that had a superb trigger and overall finish, but throats were at least .456" into a .451" groove diameter. It actually shot OK with castings, and very well with #454490. It went down the road in the mid-1980s, and though its dimensioning was whacked I enjoyed the critter. Soon afterward, my agency converted to autopistols, and my attention was more focused in that direction for the next 20 years or so. In retirement, the need for uber-tacticool sideiron is greatly diminished--if the need ever existed at all--so a nice, sedate, ACCURATE roller has a lotta draw for me. The Plain-Jane Glock 23 does so well as a CCW, I can (almost) do without another 45 ACP bottom-feeder.

Then again, I might be an N-frame addict chasing his first rush.

[Dale53]

Al;
I have personally examined several 625-8 JM Specials (after I got mine) and they all had .4525" cylinder throats (as does my 625-6 Model of 1989. I give them EXTREMELY high marks for accuracy. When you seat a cartridge with a full size .452" band ahead of the cartridge case, you can feel the band entering the throat. I believe that is one of the reasons they shoot so well (proper throats that perfectly center the bullet).

I installed a Jerry Miculek spring set and set the double action trigger pull to 9.0 lbs and the single action to 3.0 lbs (my preference). I also installed Apex Tactical Extra Length firing pins (I first installed Cylinder and Slide pins and one of them broke after very little use). C&S replaced it but people on the Forums reported the same thing. Apex does NOT caution against dry firing. Apparently, they are the choice of serious competitors. Frankly, I had no problems with my original firing pins in the 625's but did have misfires with a Performance Center 629 - I added the extra length firing pin and a JM Spring kit and now NO MORE PROBLEMS with the 629. So, I added the pins to the 625's as a precautionary thing.

John Taffin reports, in a revolver test, of the 625-2 that the cylinder throats were too tight for the 454424 bullet. That wouldn't especially bother me as I would just borrow my shooting buddies reamer set and ream it to .4525" like I had to do with my recently acquired Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible. He didn't state, but it may have also worked with bullets sized just a bit smaller (say .451"?).

http://web.archive.org/web/20030217042121/www.sixguns.com/range/sw6252.htm

Here is some more of John Taffin:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_193_32/ai_n24941588/

At any rate, I mention these details to help you get the "right one" (I just KNOW that is what you NEED to do:bigsmyl2:).

Oh, and here is a bit more "eye candy":

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/SW625-8JMSpecial-3351.jpg

Dale53

[44man]

Dale, just too pretty and clean! :drinks:

[Dale53]

44man;
Thank you, kind sir! I will admit that it pretty much "stays dirty" due to heavy use.

Dale53

[MtGun44]

I just ordered a Miha Products brass 454423 clone in .455 diameter (should cast .456 or so)
with penta and round HP pins, Cramer type.

This should be THE mold to support both Colt and S&W 1917-type .45 ACP milsurp revolvers.

Looking forward to finding time to use it and try some loads.

Bill

[Matthew 25]

Dale53, fine looking Smith. Two questions: are you happy with the Pachmayrs and how durable is that scope?

[Dale53]

Mathew 25;
Thank you for the kind words. I have been extremely happy with Pachmayr Decelerator grips. I have rather large hands and need the back strap covered to give proper trigger position. Further, I have a "base of the thumb" problem and hard grips in any of the big more revolvers is a problem. I can shoot all day without discomfort of any kind, even with the "big boomers" like .44 Magnum, .375 JDJ, etc with the Pachmayrs.

The Red Dot sight is a Simmons, as you can see, and Simmons techs tell me it is good up to and including the .44 Magnum as far as recoil is concerned. They specifically warned me against using them on the .454 Casull. I have a half dozen of them on various revolvers and have had excellent results in every way with them.

In fact, Red Dot sights have revitalized my revolver shooting since I became a "Certified Old Fart".

Dale53

[MtGun44]

"Certified Old Fart" --- Hey, I never got my certificate! ;-)

Bill