pp throat

[wgr]

any one know were i could get a good pp lead put in my rifle? its an h@r with a short throat thinks bill

[TomEGunn]

Are you referring to freebore? Any good gunsmith should be able to do it..

[Longwood]

any one know were i could get a good pp lead put in my rifle? its an h@r with a short throat thinks bill
I have the same problem in my rifle. I asked about it on the smokeless PP site but used the wrong word, throat, in place of leade.
I want to do the job myself and need a reamer. Any of you have one for sale?
LS

[RMulhern]

If you guys had Shiloh rifles....I could tell you where but don't know with what you've got.

[Lead pot]

If you guys are thinking changing the lead in your rifle I would highly suggest you make a chamber cast and get a proper diameter pilot and have the reamer made so you dont dig into the chamber wall or have the reamer to small in diameter.
The way some of the import rifles come with different chamber spec's I would not use just any reamer. You just might end up with a mess worse than your trying to fix now.

[giz189]

I have two H & R's one short one and a Buffalo Classic. Both have no throat or leade or whatever you want to call it. If you are shooting black powder, you need to read thru some of the responses and /or stickies. First of all, as I found out, you will need a smaller diameter boolit than what was mentioned in one of your posts. .441 or .442 will probably get you there. Pour 60 or 65 or 70 grs thru a drop tube, put a veg or some kind of wad over the powder. Compress powder, experimentation will tell you how much, but start out with some. You want no air space between bullet and powder. Then, some use grease cookie, some do not. If you don't you will have to wipe the barrel each shot Then place a dry veg wad or wax wad between boolit and grease cookie if you used one. Then you can seat your boolit to whatever depth you want as it will be sticking into the rifling for a little bit. Some folks only put .250 of boolitt inside case. Mostly just target shooters though. Then experiment , changing only one thing at a time and eventually you will hit a home run.

[Longwood]

I have two H & R's one short one and a Buffalo Classic. Both have no throat or leade or whatever you want to call it. If you are shooting black powder, you need to read thru some of the responses and /or stickies. First of all, as I found out, you will need a smaller diameter boolit than what was mentioned in one of your posts. .441 or .442 will probably get you there. Pour 60 or 65 or 70 grs thru a drop tube, put a veg or some kind of wad over the powder. Compress powder, experimentation will tell you how much, but start out with some. You want no air space between bullet and powder. Then, some use grease cookie, some do not. If you don't you will have to wipe the barrel each shot Then place a dry veg wad or wax wad between boolit and grease cookie if you used one. Then you can seat your boolit to whatever depth you want as it will be sticking into the rifling for a little bit. Some folks only put .250 of boolitt inside case. Mostly just target shooters though. Then experiment , changing only one thing at a time and eventually you will hit a home run.
Since it seems you are talking to the two of us, I hope Garfield does not mind me butting in again.
I have been trying to wade through all of the past posts to find out info on this but that is going to take me some time.
It seems maybe it is only the smokeless guys that do the .450 to .457/8/9/60 in a .450 bore .457 groove barrel thing.
What diameter would you patch a .441 bullet to shoot in a .457 barrel? A .441 with two wraps of paper would leave a bullet that would probably not stay in my fired cases unless I resize them which I would rather not do if I can get away with it. I can easily push the lubed and sized to .457 bullets into the fired cases now.
All I really know for sure so far is, my patch is catching on something which is not letting me chamber the round. What ever it is, pushes the lip of the patch back if I try to force the round into the rifling like I used to have to do in my custom 30-30 barrels that I used in silhouette pistol shooting.I definitely need to do a chamber cast but that stuff is sooo expensive now for something I will probably never use again.
PS,
I plan on also shooting lubed bullets which I have three molds for and will also be shooting some smokeless. Pt Pt Ptewie! Almost got stuck. ;-) So I don't want to wreck the accuracy for that type of shooting.
THANKS A MILLION TO EVERYONE WHO IS GIVING US ADVISE!

[Lead pot]

Longwood.

If you dont spend the $ to take a chamber cast chances are you will spend more later on.

[montana_charlie]

It seems maybe it is only the smokeless guys that do the .450 to .457/8/9/60 in a .450 bore .457 groove barrel thing.

I definitely need to do a chamber cast but that stuff is sooo expensive now for something I will probably never use again.
Because smokeless doesn't bump a bullet as fast as bp, smokeless shooters pretty much have to patch to groove diameter.

With black powder you have the option of patched to bore or patched to groove.
I do the latter.

If you are puttering around trying to find a combination that works, and you buy a new mould to see if a different diameter does the trick...you have just spent the cost of a Cerrosafe ingot. The ingot will tell you what you need, while the new mould may not be...

CM

[Longwood]

Because smokeless doesn't bump a bullet as fast as bp, smokeless shooters pretty much have to patch to groove diameter.

With black powder you have the option of patched to bore or patched to groove.
I do the latter.

If you are puttering around trying to find a combination that works, and you buy a new mould to see if a different diameter does the trick...you have just spent the cost of a Cerrosafe ingot. The ingot will tell you what you need, while the new mould may not be...

CM
As soon as I think of enough stuff to add to an order so I don't get ripped by UPS, I will buy some Cerrosafe. Trouble is, I have every thing I need right now.
Thanks for clearing up the bumping. Is the reason BP does not bump the bullet as much because of the soft alloy being used? I sound like a really good way to the bullet to fit perfectly and insure a perfect fit in the in the barrel, but I am not sure I want to go back to messing (good word for it) with black powder.
It seems odd because of my experience of the recoil difference with both black powder and smokeless powder. Same with dynamite. No wonder I was confused.
But,,,, believe it or not, I have been wrong before.
Puttering around is right, but I will just make another mold and then keep making it larger if need be and if that does not work I will start over. I have now till the Japs melt me into a pile of goo that glows in the dark.

[giz189]

Longwood, you are right about the boolits being loose. You will have to size enough of the neck to hold the boolit. Now, that is if you are going to use them as hunting loads. You may also have to slightly crimp the boolits in the case also. As I understand , some of the target shooters just seat their boolits on top of the powder and load in the chamber. The boolit will be ,447 to .449 or so, depending on what your paper thickness is. The boolit will project up into the rifling enough that it will not slide out at those diameters, at least mine did not. Also, with the boolit engaging the rifling as it will, it should line it up closer to the bore of the barrel and chamber. However, my H&R BC only has .454 groove diameters. It is a little tighter than some rifles. And yes you will probably get tired of hearing this, but a chamber cast will help infinitely. Good Luck. Ricky

[giz189]

[QUOTE=Longwood;1207259]Since it seems you are talking to the two of us, I hope Garfield does not mind me butting in again.
I have been trying to wade through all of the past posts to find out info on this but that is going to take me some time.
It seems maybe it is only the smokeless guys that do the .450 to .457/8/9/60 in a .450 bore .457 groove barrel thing.

Smokeless shooters are the prevalent shooters using a .450 diameter boolit,before wrapping. Not all though, we have a couple shooters who have done well with black powder on the forum. I finally got my 1871 BC to shoot about 3" group at 100 yds. But it does better with the smaller diameter boolit and black powder. Since all of my shooting is mostly hunting, I use this load for deer and hog hunting both.

[Longwood]

Thank you sir!
That smaller bullet makes sense now that I am gathering more info and am slowly beginning to catch on.
The gun shot 4 rounds of lubed into about 3" the first time I shot it but I also had a flyer at about 5" and another keyhole also at about 5" but 5" below the other flyer. I went off in a hurry and forgot my spotting scope so I am not sure which rounds were the flyers.
The bullets were Lee 405 gr but they cast .456. My barrel slugs to .457 so I lapped the mold out to .458 and will shoot some very soon.
I am ready to start in with lots more testing with PP bullets before I do any machining on the rifle and sure do appreciate all of the help and suggestions.

[montana_charlie]

All I really know for sure so far is, my patch is catching on something which is not letting me chamber the round. What ever it is, pushes the lip of the patch back if I try to force the round into the rifling like I used to...
Try shortening the OAL on your patched-to-.457-bullets so that you do not 'force' the bullet into contact with the lands. If it just 'touches' the lands, that is perfect.

When the cartridge is fired (with BP), the bullet will expand...trapping the patch between lead and steel like it is in a vise. In that situation, the paper is very rigid, and will take the punishment much better than it can when you are pushing with your thumb.


Thanks for clearing up the bumping. Is the reason BP does not bump the bullet as much because of the soft alloy being used? I sound like a really good way to the bullet to fit perfectly and insure a perfect fit in the in the barrel, but I am not sure I want to go back to messing (good word for it) with black powder.
Actually, black powder does a better job of bumping. Expansion happens instantly, which helps to keep the paper in place as the bullet moves forward...and keeps the bore sealed so no blowby can mess with the patch.

CM

[RwBeV]

There is a less expensive way to chamber cast, you can use sulfur you have to add 1 percent graphite by weight. You heat the stuff up in a tin can and pour it in your chamber that you have blocked off with a patched cleaning rod then just tap it out. This is a very old way of chamber casting. The graphite keeps it from shrinking to much. I have used this method allot it works well.

Bob

[Longwood]

There is a less expensive way to chamber cast, you can use sulfur you have to add 1 percent graphite by weight. You heat the stuff up in a tin can and pour it in your chamber that you have blocked off with a patched cleaning rod then just tap it out. This is a very old way of chamber casting. The graphite keeps it from shrinking to much. I have used this method allot it works well.

Bob
Thanks
Now I remember reading about that back in the 60's. Don't know when I forgot all about it. Gitten old sure sucks.

[Longwood]

Try shortening the OAL on your patched-to-.457-bullets so that you do not 'force' the bullet into contact with the lands. If it just 'touches' the lands, that is perfect.

When the cartridge is fired (with BP), the bullet will expand...trapping the patch between lead and steel like it is in a vise. In that situation, the paper is very rigid, and will take the punishment much better than it can when you are pushing with your thumb.


Actually, black powder does a better job of bumping. Expansion happens instantly, which helps to keep the paper in place as the bullet moves forward...and keeps the bore sealed so no blowby can mess with the patch.

CM
I see, I was thinking the patch would catch on the end of the chamber and rifling.
I think the reason I thought that is because a couple of times on my first time out, I had a PP stay in the case and it was sticking out of the case mouth about 1/4 inch About where the end of the chamber is but that may have been the ones that I crimped (did a couple but noticed the crimp cut the PP) I shot them anyway and those may have been the ones I saw. I was all antsy to shoot it and forgot to take a notebook with me. There is one in my kit now.
Thanks for clearing up the second part also.
Must have had a brain dead moment, thats what I was trying to say. I reread it and what I said doesn't make sense, BP bumps the bullet more than smokeless which surprised me but I can sure see why it would work so well.

[Longwood]

Try shortening the OAL on your patched-to-.457-bullets so that you do not 'force' the bullet into contact with the lands. If it just 'touches' the lands, that is perfect.

When the cartridge is fired (with BP), the bullet will expand...trapping the patch between lead and steel like it is in a vise. In that situation, the paper is very rigid, and will take the punishment much better than it can when you are pushing with your thumb.


Actually, black powder does a better job of bumping. Expansion happens instantly, which helps to keep the paper in place as the bullet moves forward...and keeps the bore sealed so no blowby can mess with the patch.

CM
I patched a few yesterday and this time I left the paper closer to the case mouth and they chamber just fine. The bullet is a long, straight sided Creedmore style, and has a very blunt tip. Today I made a drill and cut the cavity for a money bullet mold so I can see how they work in the rifle.


"Get away from that wheel borrow boy. You know you don't know nothin bout machinery".

[montana_charlie]

There is a less expensive way to chamber cast, you can use sulfur...
Thanks
Now I remember reading about that back in the 60's.

Take a look at this for 'pounding' a model of your chamber.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=105893&page=2

CM

[Longwood]

Take a look at this for 'pounding' a model of your chamber.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=105893&page=2

CM

Thank Charlie.

Got r dun!

[Longwood]

Take a look at this for 'pounding' a model of your chamber.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=105893&page=2

CM

Thank Charlie.

Got r dun!